Delegate Jeion Ward and Mike Mullin: Why Would a Black Traveler Need a Green Book?
IN THE NEWS: The Senate approved legislation to codify Glenn Youngkin's executive order undermining school mask mandates. The House is expected to pass it quickly. It also rejected nominee Andrew Wheeler, Glenn Youngkin's choice for Secretary of Natural Resources. That move set off a cascade of partisan machinations that threaten to leave Wheeler in place for another year as a recess appointment.
INTERVIEW: Delegates Jeion Ward (D-Hampton) and Mike Mullen (D-Newport News) introduced legislation to honor sites listed in the "green book," a handbook for black travelers that showed them which sites were safe during the era of Jim Crow segregation. What kind of sites were featured, and why is it still important today?
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Michael Pope
I'm Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
I'm Thomas Bowman.
Michael Pope
And this is Pod Virginia, the podcast that takes you inside Virginia politics.
Thomas Bowman
Later in the show will be joined by Delegate Jeion Ward and Delegate Mike Mullin. They're gonna explain the effort to commemorate, “Green Book,” sites across Virginia.
Michael Pope
Thomas, have you seen the movie, "Green Book?"
Thomas Bowman
You know what, Michael, I have not seen it. Tell me about it.
Michael Pope
It's an excellent movie, dynamite movie, I highly recommend it. It's about this jazz piano player and his bodyguard. They're traveling throughout the country. And they've got this book, "The Green Book," that African Americans used to travel with that told them safe sites. So like, "Here's a hotel you can stay at, if you're a Black person. Here's a service station you can use if you're a Black person. Here's a barber shop, a beauty parlor," that sort of thing. And so this book was in publication from the 30s, all the way up to the late 60s. And there are tons of locations across Virginia that were listed in the Green Book, and Mike Mullin has this really interesting bill to identify all of those locations and commemorate them somehow, like maybe with historical markers. So that sort of thing.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, it's a great discussion. It's very appropriate for Black History Month. This is a very eye opening interview with these two delegates.
Michael Pope
Okay so, this is the part of the show where we welcome our new patreons! Supporters of the show get access to exclusive content, like our new interview with Ethan Lynne, that's the teenager who was attacked by the Twitter account for Team Youngkin. Last week, we dropped an interview with him where he explains what happened, and his reaction to it. So that episode is behind a paywall. You can only listen to it if you are a Patreon. So Thomas, did we pick up any new patreons as a result of that new episode?
Thomas Bowman
Yes, thank you to Susan Cottrell. She signed up to be a friend of the pod. And, Susan, we couldn't produce this show without listeners like you.
Michael Pope
Yes, thank you, and welcome to the club. And thank you to all of our patreons because you are why we do this show, and we really appreciate your support. Okay, let's get on to the news. Thomas, do you remember when Democrats were hopeful that the state Senate would be a blue wall to stop Republicans and their agenda? Well, there are some cracks in the wall. Let's start with book banning. Now during the campaign for Governor, Glenn Youngkin, would frequently attacked Terry McAuliffe for vetoing a bill that would require schools to notify parents when they plan on using sexually explicit materials. That bill was prompted by a group of Fairfax County parents who were raising concerns about Toni Morrison's pulitzer prize winning book, "Beloved." Now, Youngkin said if the General Assembly were to put the, "Beloved," bill on his desk, he would sign it. Well guess what? That's exactly what happened last week, Linwood Lewis and Monty Mason crossed party lines to vote with Amanda Chase.
Amanda Chase
This last election proved that parents want a say in their child's education. And we, as the General Assembly in the Senate, need to respect the wishes of parents, instead of pushing what the government thinks is best for our kids.
Michael Pope
Now, most Senate Democrats voted against the bill, arguing that the notification process would create a chilling effect on what kind of material teachers would consider teaching. Senator Ghazala Hashmi is a Democrat from Chesterfield, who reminded senators that they're talking about parents who were upset about Toni Morrison's, "Beloved."
Ghazala Hashmi
When we're talking about sexually explicit content that comes under banning, however, it's not Chaucer, it's not Shakespeare. Invariably, it is the writing of Black and Brown authors. We've seen this debate take place publicly, in the writings, particularly recently, of Toni Morrison.
Michael Pope
So the phrase, "book banning," is perhaps controversial. And this is not- this is not a bill that would straight up ban anything, it is a notification bill, not a banning bill. But, if you talk to teachers, they will tell you, if notification is required, that's an effective ban. Because, you know, if you're a school, if you're a principal, or school board member, or a teacher, and you and you say, "Okay, here's a book, Toni Morrison's, "Beloved." If I want if I want to teach this book, I'm going to have to send out notification to parents, that's not worth it. Let me teach something where I don't have to send out a notification." So it becomes an effective book ban, and Democrats are making this happen. They're putting it on the Governor's desk so he can sign it.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, I mean, I couldn't see how- I don't see how you can possibly think this is a good bill to vote for. It doesn't jive with any conservative principles. And it doesn't jive with the liberal, small l liberal, and small d democratic principles, that is supposed to be bipartisan. When you get into the slippery slope of deciding what content students should be learning, rather than teachers deciding through acquired skills and pedagogy what the students should be learning, you're playing a very dangerous game.
Michael Pope
Well, now to be clear, that's not what- so supporters of the bill would take issue with what you just said, because the the law, this what this bill, doesn't do that, it actually- it's a notification bill, it says, "If you want to teach Toni Morrison's, "Beloved," you have to send out this notification.
Thomas Bowman
And we just talked about how is deliberately intended to have a chilling effect on the ability for teachers to feel comfortable even bringing it up in class. Now, I hope they do, but what the more likely outcome is, what you've already stated, that it's not going to be worth the trouble for them.
Michael Pope
Well, you mentioned conservative principles. Isn't giving parents notification about what their kids are learning, what their children are learning in school. I mean, maybe that is or isn't conservative, but like, shouldn't parents have a say? I mean, like, wasn't this litigated in the last election, and McAuliffe, who said parents should not have a say, McAuliffe lost that argument, and Youngkin won it?
Thomas Bowman
Well, I think the mistake is to think that the election was decided based off that issue. The election was not decided based off any issues, it was decided because the Democratic candidate did not do what he needed to do in order to win an election. That- it's it's that simple.
Michael Pope
He didn't campaign all over the state.
Thomas Bowman
Correct.
Michael Pope
He walked up in Northern Virginia.
Thomas Bowman
Drinking beers in his hot tub, could not be bothered to travel the way he needed to be traveling for a campaign. He lost it, it was his to lose. And that's what happened. So it was not on any issues. And so I really want to push back against Democrats who have thought that it was because of the schools. Linwood Lewis and Monty Mason are two conservative Democrats of a, above a certain age, that have pretty close competitive districts. So they're not shoo ins for reelection. They're kind of feeling the way the wind is blowing. And they don't want this to be an issue. The problem is, issues move too quickly. The issues that were discussed in the 2021 campaign are not going to be the issues that people are voting on in the 2023 campaign. So it is a total mistake, to be intimidated of the potential ramifications from your constituents. It's a mistake to be bullied in a way into voting for a bad bill for terrible policy, because you're afraid that you might lose your seat because of an existential fear that this might be an issue, even like, over a year from now. That's not how campaign politics works.
Michael Pope
Well, here's another crack in the blue wall, mask mandates for schools. Three Senate Democrats crossed party lines to vote with Republicans on a bill to prohibit school boards, across Virginia, from imposing mask mandates. Now the three Democrats were Linwood Lewis, Joe Morrissey, and Chap Peterson. The dramatic vote in the State Senate came after more than an hour of debate about whether masks work to prevent the spread of Coronavirus, and whether school boards should have the authority to mandate them. Senator Dave Marston is a Democrat from Fairfax County who says, "Removing the mandate will create unhealthy conflict."
Dave Marston
Children can sometimes be cruel, and thoughtless. And this has the potential of bringing a parent's political views, which, unfortunately, have been caught up in in this pandemic, bringing their political views with their kids coming to schools.
Michael Pope
Now, Senator Chap Peterson is a Democrat from Fairfax City who voted with the Republicans on this one.
Chap Peterson
When you force a child to wear a mask without any scientific basis for doing that, you're forcing them to adopt a statement that they, or their family, may not believe in. If there's scientific data to back it up, that's one thing. But if there's no scientific data, and you're just saying, "No, wear the mask because that's what the community wants." That's a violation of the First Amendment folks.
Michael Pope
Now that this bill has passed, it'll go over to the Republican led House of Delegates, which seems more than certain to send it to the desk of the Governor. And because Democrats changed the rules on what kind of powers the Governor has to do emergency laws, Governor Youngkin will be able to implement this thing immediately. And so, you know, we're heading into a world where your local school board no longer has the authority to have a mask mandate, that's going to happen very soon. And so there's a lot of stuff to unpack here, Thomas. Let's start with the authority of the school boards. So I mean, like putting the effectiveness of masks aside for a second, should local school boards across Virginia, have the authority to implement health policy, or should that be done from Richmond?
Thomas Bowman
Well, there's another conflicting regulation in the Code of Virginia, that says school boards have to implement policies recommended by the CDC, when they become recommended. By the way that's also going to be true for vaccines. When the CDC recommends that school children receive this approved vaccine, then school children in Virginia, are going to be required to take it, automatically. That bill passed while Republicans were still in the majority before Eileen Filler-Corn, that bill's patron, became the Speaker. So there are so many problems with this issue. But the one that I have the most issue with, is that it's almost like none of these people talk to teachers, period. Because if they talk to teachers, they would know that the reasons Fairfax County, and Alexandria, and Arlington, and Richmond are really suing the government, is not necessarily because they're committed to a safe work environment, or because they're committed to health based policies. But because their teachers are threatening, or are quitting, in mass, informing the administration that they will not be back in the fall. And they do not have enough people filling the gaps to take over as permanent substitutes or cause nobody wants to apply to make terrible wages on the frontlines of this thing that's now been politicized. Older teachers are just retiring, and there are no replacements for these older teachers. It's way too much skill, and knowledge, and experience. And then, also, many of the COVID outbreaks in Fairfax, I learned from one of the school board members, came from the custodial staff. So it's not so much the kids, which is always what we're worried about, is the kids, the kids, the kids, but there's so many other people involved in a school, custodial staff, faculty, teachers, counselors, administrators, and all of them, in addition to the students, are going to be bringing the germs that they pick up in school, back home to their households, which may or may not have vulnerable family living inside of it. And you'll have plenty of examples of students who are battling cancer, or maybe HIV/AIDS patient, or recent organ transplant, or any other issue that leads them to be immuno compromised. Those people now have been denied the freedom to learn without fear of their life. So I actually have grave concerns that this bill violates the 14th Amendment, Equal Protection Clause.
Michael Pope
Clearly there probably will be some kind of lawsuit to challenge it. So I would imagine that we would be following that in the weeks to come. Okay, so one more item in the news, the nomination of Andrew Wheeler to be Virginia's Secretary of Natural and Historic Resources. That nomination was rejected by the State Senate on a party line vote last week. Now, this is actually a very rare occurrence for the General Assembly to reject a cabinet pick. In fact, the cabinet has been in existence since the 1850s. There's only one other time where a cabinet pick has been rejected. It was in 2006, when Governor Kaine's pick for Secretary of Commonwealth was rejected by a Republican led House. Now this thing is happening now with Andrew Wheeler is the second time, keep in mind, the cabinet has existed since the 1850s. This is the second time that the General Assembly has rejected a cabinet pick. Now Republican Senator Richard Stewart of King George County says, "Wheeler is being given a raw deal."
Richard Stuart
His record on clean air, and clean water, is frankly astonishing. But I get the politics. I understand that some of these environmental groups out there don't like him because of who he worked for.
Michael Pope
Who he worked for, of course, was President Donald Trump. Wheeler served as the EPA Chief for the Trump administration, which raised concerns for Senate Democrats. Senator Chap Peterson is a Democrat from Fairfax City who says the Trump administration has a terrible record on the environment.
Chap Peterson
He defunded the Chesapeake Bay, it dismantled the Clean Power Plan, dismantled it, it basically removed rules that were dealing with coal ash and particulate, and, effectively, silence scientists. And I know Mr. Wheeler can say, "Well, I did the best I could within my limited sphere," and I understand that, but sometimes you got to do a little bit better than that.
Michael Pope
Okay, so here's the kicker, Andrew Wheeler has been rejected by the Senate, but he is still on the job as the Cabinet Secretary. In fact, the Governor says he has no plans on naming anybody else to that job. And Wheeler will remain on the job as like an acting secretary, or a secretary designate, or whatever want to call him, he will remain on the job until the General Assembly adjourns. And at that time, the Governor will have the power to make a recess appointment, and that person will not be considered by the Senate until next year. And then you've got the Republicans threatening to withhold an SCC judge, and then you've got this battle with the Senate where they might not confirm anybody, and like this has really kind of blown up. But what do we make of this Wheeler mess?
Thomas Bowman
Well, this is always the risk, right? This is why you don't like to reject nominees, because it sets so many wheels in motion, and you don't know how they're going to end, and it's not, necessarily, going to be favorable for whatever your position is. I take issue with Senator Stuart's characterization that it's simply because of who he worked for. The objection to Andrew Wheeler, to Chap Peterson's credit, is because of what he did, not who his employer was, and what he did, his record speaks for itself. And Chap Peterson did a great job highlighting exactly what that record is. So what's gonna happen next? I don't know. But it's a very consequential position, as far as Cabinet Secretaries go, for a lot of business, and a lot of clean standards that happen in the state, this person is going to be over the DEQ. So this is an incredibly consequential Secretary position, Cabinet position.
Michael Pope
Yeah, this is like one of the most important cabinet positions that the Governor has.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, and this is rare, also, because you don't typically see people from D.C. coming into Richmond, for state level stuff. It's usually the other way around, you go from state level up to federal government. So we've always taken pride, as a state government, for not letting politics across the Potomac seep into politics in the Richmond State House. And this is a violation of that. That's also very rare.
Michael Pope
I'm also kind of wondering about, sort of, the violation of the prerogative of the General Assembly. So like, what's the point in having a process where the General Assembly approves these people, if this guy's rejected, and yet he stays on the job anyway? And then the Governor gets to appoint someone who won't be considered by the General Assembly until like, almost a year later? I mean, it takes this whole process of like, the General Assembly, approving people, and really turns it upside down. And you wonder, like, why do we even have this process, if the Governor can just appoint whoever he wants anyway?
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, and this is why, this is just one more reason, Michael, why it's so incredibly problematic, because it betrays a disrespect for Virginia's rule of law. And that is an incredibly consequential action. I feel like that's our Word of the Day, "consequential," but The General Assembly's decision is usually a legal term, "legislative intent." So when the legislature shows its intent, that's not law, but it's something that you might use in the absence of relevant code section. I don't like the way this goes because it just kind of...it suggests that we are off to a very bad start. And it's going to be rough four years, just from the point of view of appreciating good government, and a well run state, and it means you can't trust your opponent. Alright, Michael, let's take a break. When we come back, we're gonna open up the pages of the, "Green Book," and we're gonna get a sense of what kind of places were safe for Black travelers during the days of Jim Crow segregation. We'll be right back.
Michael Pope
And we're back on Pod Virginia. We're talking about the, "Green Book." No, not the 2018 movie about the jazz piano player and his body gaurd, we're talking about the actual, "Green Book," also known as the, "Negro Motorist Green Book."
Thomas Bowman
Lawmakers are debating a bill that would commemorate all the Virginia sites listed in the, "Green Book," during the years it was published, which spanned from the 1930s to the 1960s, which show places that were safe for Black travelers, and many of those places are no longer around.
Michael Pope
And we have the most amazing duo of lawmakers here to talk about these issues. Joining us is a member of the House of Delegates from Hampton, who remembers her father traveling with a, “Green Book.” Delegate Jeion Ward, thanks for joining us.
Jeion Ward
Thank you. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's great to be here with you.
Thomas Bowman
We're also joined by a member of the House of Delegates from Newport News. He introduced the bill to commemorate all those, “Green Book,” sites. Delegate Mike Mullin, thank you for joining us.
Mike Mullin
Well, it's great to be back with you, Thomas and Michael.
Michael Pope
Great. Well, let's start by explaining exactly what a, “Green Book,” is. I think a lot of our listeners might have never heard of this. So what exactly is...the official name is the, "Negro Motorist Green Book." Delegate Ward, what is this thing and what can we learn from it today?
Jeion Ward
Well, at the time when African Americans were beginning to travel a little, maybe going out of town, going on vacation, or whatever, they had to have something in hand to keep them safe on the road. So a gentleman named Victor Green, knowing that even though you were able to travel, you could not go everywhere. Usually, the white traveler had no qualms. Just hop in the car, you see a hotel, you stop. That wasn't the case with Black people, they had to make sure that this place that they were going was welcoming, they didn't want to be embarrassed, they didn't want to get hurt for going into a place like this, because there was still a lot of discrimination. So what he did, Victor Green, was to have a book, write a book, a small size book, I remember my father's, and never saw the green cover on it, because it was worn, quite worn. But I remember the book. And in that book, as we traveled to North Carolina, which was his home, and we had a good little distance to go, he knew exactly where we could go, where we couldn't go, that type of thing. And that's what we used whenever we went anywhere, he had that book with him. Yes.
Thomas Bowman
Delegate Mullin, tell us how you came to introduce this bill to commemorate all the, “Green Book,” sites?
Mike Mullin
Well, one of the things that we're blessed with so much of on the Virginia Peninsula are amazing beaches, and I was with my family in Hampton at Buckroe Beach. And we were having a great time. And I was actually on the floor of the House of Delegates the following week. And I was talking with Delegate Ward about that. And she mentioned to me, for the first time, that there was an entire section of the beach right down from where we were, that had a history that was totally unknown to me. And that was only 500 feet from where I'd been sitting with my family.
Michael Pope
What was that history?
Jeion Ward
Well, I'll chime in, it was called Bay Shore Beach. It was right down from Buckroe. We saw the same water, same sand, but there was a fence and we could not go beyond that, as Black people, we stayed out on Bay Shore beach. But on Bay Shore Beach, white people could come if they wanted to. And we had music, we had a good time, people were having cookouts, picnics, everything. So it was if we weren't missing anything, but we certainly couldn't go to the other end of the beach. And even after discrimination, and Black people were able to go over to Buckroe, there was a lot of challenges at that time, too. Because no matter what, you had to be off that beach by sundown.
Michael Pope
So tell us what kind of listings that we would see if we were flipping through the pages of a Green Book? Delegate Ward, I know you you own a 1940 edition. If you're flipping through the pages of that 1940 edition, and you come to Virginia, what kind of sites are you going to see listed in Virginia?
Jeion Ward
Well, first, you've got some restaurants on King Street, got a barber shop on Queen Street, another hair salon on King Street. And then you got to remember too, there are service stations, gas stations. Believe it or not, Black people could have a car, but you couldn't get gas anywhere. So you had to have that listed, which gas stations would service Black people. So there is one listed on Armstead Avenue. And if your car breaks down, there is a garage on Mallory Avenue, and not to mention all of the houses that people would open up their houses, because no hotel was gonna let you stay there. Even if you had- you were a big time entertainer, and you had come to some large venue in the area. You could not stay in the hotel.
Michael Pope
Yeah, that's actually the plot of the Green Book, right? This there's this famous piano player, jazz piano player, classical piano player. He's touring around with his bodyguard. But he can only stay in, you know, certain places because of Jim Crow segregation.
Jeion Ward
Exactly, exactly. But we've got lists of names of the homes, right in the book on Jefferson Avenue, Marshall Avenue, I think Mike knows some of these streets. Marshall, Jefferson Avenue, all those places are listed in here, where people could stop and people opened up their homes for people to stay.
Mike Mullin
You know, it's, it's amazing how many of these sites are right where many of us live, and work, and we had no idea that we were right next to a point in history. That one on Jefferson Avenue is right down the street from my house. And, you know, if you have the book in front of you, Delegate Ward, there's a wonderful place in Alexandria, I don't know, there are actually two private homes that are right across the street from each other. And they're the only two places that you can find in Alexandria.
Michael Pope
Yeah, when I saw that 1940 copy, I was- I had to check out what was listed for Alexandria. And so there's a home at 803 Gibbon and a home at 724 Gibbon, so they're like right across the street from each other. So they're listed as tourist homes. So Delegate Ward, explain what exactly does that mean? What is a tourist home?
Jeion Ward
Um, what I'm assuming that it is, is if you are touring in the area, there is a place that you could stay. I'm not sure if if the word can be used interchangeably, because I've seen it listed as a tourist home. And then another one as a home that you could, you know, stay in. I'm not sure if one had meals, and one just had a bed, I'm not sure. We got to dig into it a little bit more to find out. But we know that it was a place that they could stop, get a shower, go to sleep, and be back on the road again.
Mike Mullin
One of the things, that when we were looking into it, was that some of those homes, in particular, those in Alexandria, were putting themselves out as being safe for families, which I can imagine was even more difficult when you were out on the road. It's one thing to be a traveler solo, but to be bringing your family with you, that puts a whole other layer of uncertainty.
Michael Pope
Ah got it. So there's actually a subtext here, which is that this is not the kind of place where you would find live music or gambling.
Jeion Ward
No, it just sounds like these are just homes that you found a bed. As you heard, no no gambling, no music, nothing wild like that, because we have some nightclubs listed in here, also. But I think this is just a room for the night that you could feel safe taking your family into.
Mike Mullin
But you see the full, you know, panoply of life when people are traveling, you see private homes, see upscale hotels, you see sort of downscale, sort of by the side of the road motels, you see, places where you can get your haircut, you see places where you can get a drink. It's really the whole entirety of life can be found in this book.
Jeion Ward
Yes. And what amazed me was when I found out that you could not get gasoline just at any place, "It didn't matter, you're Black, we don't service you." So there was two gas stations, two companies, I'm going to call their names is, ESSO, if anybody remembers that it's a gas station, ESSO, is now Exxon, and Exxon or ESSO would allow African Americans get their gas there. And then some Shell gas stations, they would allow you to get it, and to let you know how it feeds right into your life now, if I have a choice, and I'm not advertising, but I always remember, my husband always remember, who serviced us when we couldn't go anywhere else. So some of this still goes so deep inside of you, it determines some decisions that you make, even today.
Mike Mullin
One of the things that is wonderful about that story is that there was a great history there of two corporations that were helpful when they didn't have to be, right? But that's a story that is not told in any of our history books here in Virginia. And it's certainly not told with any placards or any sort of memorial. That's just a story that Delegate Ward was aware of from her own family and her own life. And so if there's not a place to keep that history, if there's not a way to preserve it, once that story gets lost, then the entire history gets lost with it. And so part of this bill is to take that information and that knowledge, and create a full listing of all the places here in Virginia, that were included in the, "Green Book," which is important because we don't have all of them. I believe there were listed about 315 different sites between 1938 and 1967, and that was finally researched by the University of Virginia. But you know, UVA actually had a hard time being able to do some of that work as well. And they haven't found all the sites. And part of the reason is because that, "Green Book," that Delegate Ward has in her hands is incredibly valuable. UVA only has one copy. The Library of Virginia doesn't have a single one. And part of the reason I think, Delegate Ward can speak to this, but I would imagine a lot of families have kept it in family hands as an heirloom.
Jeion Ward
It's one of those things that was so important. As a matter of fact, even Victor Green called it the Bible, a traveler's Bible, and you treated it like it was a Bible. You didn't get in your car without your Motorist Bible. And I don't mean to use it loosely. But it was considered that important. You had to hold on to it. And I can tell you, my dad's was crumbled up. I remember it, because he had to make sure he had it. He used it was well worn. And so yes, it was important, and you would never get rid of it. Because even you know, at this time you think of, "Green Book," I think of my dad, immediately, I think of him and us traveling to North Carolina, and going through some of the things that we went through, and what we had to do while we were in the car traveling.
Mike Mullin
Well, Delegate Ward, I want to thank you, because you were kind enough to share with me a photocopy of another year of the, "Green Book," that you're able to find at pretty much the only place you can find a copy of the, "Green Book," right now, which is through the Library of Congress, which sells, you know, facsimile copies if you needed one, and I guess that was from a later year than what you had?
Jeion Ward
Um, I've got a few copies. I have- I had two separate copies, I cannot remember the year. And then I found one that had a few compiled, which all they did was make copies of pages, that's what they did, but it's not the actual book, but you still see the places, and everything is still listed. So it would be great if we could get an actual copy. But until then, as long as we have the names and addresses, we can move forward, because it's just that important, I believe.
Thomas Bowman
Delegate Ward, how would your father, or anybody, have come to have one of these books in their possession? I imagine you couldn't just go into a AAA, and pick one up. How did that work?
Jeion Ward
I don't know, you could get a subscription, my understanding. And once you were on that list, you got it every year. So almost like the phone book. And you used to get one every year. And so you would continue to get this book every year. And I think they were able to do the printing and copying, because after a while, they started accepting advertisements for different places where you might be able to stop, or getting your hair done, those types of things like that. But it was one of those things that was well known in the Black community. And that's why I kind of laugh when people say, "Well, how come I don't know anything about it?" and I think, "Because you're not Black. It wasn't for you." And so it never got out. It was our own secret, that's all. And we kind of kept it to ourselves, to make sure we shared it with family and friends, where you could go, where you couldn't go, because it really could save your life. It really could.
Michael Pope
So I'm wondering about any of these places that might still be around. If you look at, I'm looking now at the listings for Richmond in 1940. So there's Cora's Waffle Shop. I think that's probably long gone. There's the Rest a Bit Beauty Parlor. I think that's probably not around anymore. I think there's there's also Wrights Barber Shop. Again, these are places that you know, have been lost to history, which of course, is the reason we would want to put up the historical markers. But Delegate Ward, I know some of these places are still around. Right?
Jeion Ward
Right. Pearlie’s has been there a long time in Newport News, Downtown Newport News, Pearl Restaurant.
Mike Mullin
Pearlie’s isn't going anywhere.
Jeion Ward
I mean, it's been there like, forever. And I've said before, you know, whenever some big campaign comes into town, somebody running for governor, congressmen, whatever, you go down to Pearlie’s.
Mike Mullin
That's what the President did.
Jeion Ward
Yes, gotta go to Pearlie’s, and it still looks like an older restaurant. It's not glamorous or anything, but people go there because it is Pearlie’s. And that's it. And the community knows that is Pearlie’s, and what it means to the community, it means so much. This was our place. This is where we could go and get a good meal, we could sit at the lunch counter, we could sit anywhere we wanted to sit. And that's what's so great about that place. Because when you go to Pearlie’s, you are home.
Michael Pope
So in thinking about the places that are no longer around, versus some of the places that might still be around. And I'm thinking specifically about an aspect of this, that's a little different, which is service stations. So I had never given any thought to service stations being segregated. But like that makes sense that they would be listed in here. So Richmond has three listings for service stations in the, "Green Book," for 1940. And so I'm kind of wondering if those sites are currently service stations, right? So it might not be, obviously, wouldn't be the same gas station service station. But like, I suppose there might also be a financial incentive for a business to have a historical marker in front of it saying, "This is a historical site that was listed in the, 'Green Book.'" I mean, like there might be some sort of Chamber of Commerce kind of economic development aspect of this too, right? Delegate Mullin, is that something that would be part of the thinking behind putting these historical signs up?
Mike Mullin
I can't imagine that there isn't a business that wouldn't want to advertise the fact that they were standing up for communities of color before it was acceptable. So I would think that that would only be a benefit to a business that's still operating.
Michael Pope
There's an inverse to that question, too, which is, I'm curious, because I live in Alexandria, and I think a lot about Alexandria, there are only two tourist homes listed. There are no service stations, no hotels, no restaurants, no restaurants for African Americans, in Alexandria, no service stations for African Americans in Alexandria.
Mike Mullin
Well, now think about some of the reasons why that could be. You know, that was, at the time, more of a bedroom community outside of Washington D.C. And so some of the communities they were probably not very friendly at the time, to African American tourists who were coming through. And so, you know, one of the things that you mentioned about the service stations in Richmond, that I immediately noticed, as someone who travels a long distance down I 64, which at the time was I 60. You have to go almost 40 miles before you get to the next service station after Richmond. So if your car breaks down, you have a long way to go before you're safe. And so keeping that book in hand is probably a life or death thing.
Jeion Ward
It is, exactly.
Mike Mullin
If you get caught in the wrong type of area on your drive to a service station in Williamsburg.
Thomas Bowman
So they stopped publishing that, "Green Book," in 1966. But the need for a catalog like this, to keep people safe, didn't go away. Certainly not in many places in the South. So what happened after 1966 that would allow Black travelers to travel safely?
Jeion Ward
It was all word of mouth at that point. Even when we had the, "Green Book," it was still word of mouth. And so we knew exactly where we could could go. And we also knew that if you were in certain places, you had to be out before sundown. And they were called, "sundown towns." Even in Newport News, if a woman worked in Hydenwood, nice homes, doctors and everything, their housekeeper had to be out, and on the bus, and home before sundown. There are places right now, that we quietly, as a Black community know, you should not be there after sundown. There is a county and I'm not calling any names here, but we know exactly what were sundown towns, and some of the mentality has not changed.
Michael Pope
Delegate Ward, are you suggesting there's there's a county in Virginia, currently, where you wouldn't want to be caught after sundown as an African American?
Jeion Ward
Well, I'm not going to say that. But that's what the talk is even now, between us, we laugh about it. But you know, you know that you weren't really welcome for years. I'll put it that way.
Michael Pope
But you don't want to name the county?
Jeion Ward
Um, never never.
Michael Pope
I had to try. I had to try.
Jeion Ward
No, never. It's our secrets. You know, what I mean? As a people, it's our secrets that we tell each other.
Thomas Bowman
Well, it sounds like an investigative reporter has an interesting job now to do, and unmask the sundown towns or reputationaly, at least, remaining in the Commonwealth. Delegate Ward and Delegate Mullin, we're about out of time. Is there anything else that you want to share with us before you leave?
Mike Mullin
Well, I just want to say, that we're very hopeful that this is going to be a bipartisan effort, that we will have support from all different communities across the Commonwealth, not just from urban or suburban communities, we'll have some from rural communities, my hope is, that we'll be able to even have the support of the Governor, and that this can quickly become law.
Jeion Ward
I thank you so much for this opportunity to talk and maybe talk too much. But I thank you that we were able to dig a little deeper into the, "Green Book," and a little bit of the history of this commonwealth.
Michael Pope
All right, well, Delegate Jeion Ward, Delegate Mike Mullin, thanks for joining us.
Mike Mullin
Thank you so much for having us.
Jeion Ward
Thank you.
Michael Pope
Thank you for listening to this episode of Pod Virginia. Transcriptions are by Emily Cottrell, satirical spots are written, performed and produced by Steve Artley. Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts and hey, consider writing a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps people find the show. We'll be back again next week with the next episode of Pod Virginia.
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