Junk Science Conversion Therapy and Challenging the Earned Sentence Credits
Michael Pope 1:03
I'm Michael Pope
Thomas Bowman 1:48
I'm Tom Bowman.
Michael Pope 1:49
And this is Pod Virginia. The podcast boldly splitting infinitives.
Thomas Bowman 1:55
Oh, that makes me itch, is that a grammar joke or a Star Trek joke?
Michael Pope 1:59
It's actually both Thomas.
Thomas Bowman 2:01
Oh, well, they're both lame.
Michael Pope 2:04
Well, you know, it's not lame. This special surprise that Pod Virginia has in store for you the listener this week later this week, we will be dropping an amazing new episode that will calculate the economic toll of gun violence in Virginia.
Thomas Bowman 2:18
Yeah, two for the price of one. It's a number that includes everything from the initial police response, to the long term medical costs, all the way through to the lost earnings of people who are killed or disabled.
Michael Pope 2:31
Yeah, you know, when you think about gun violence, we often think about the human tragedy, which is, you know, obvious the human tragedy is what would be the first thing you would think about, but in this episode, this next episode of Pod Virginia, we're going to take a look at the economic toll of gun violence.
Thomas Bowman 2:45
We're joined by Paul Friedman. He's the founder of a nonprofit group known as Safer Country, and he's helping us unpack some of the stats compiled by Everytown for Gun Safety and Representative Don Beyer's, Joint Economic Committee.
Michael Pope 3:00
That episode will drop Thursday, so you're definitely going to want to smash the subscribe button.
Thomas Bowman 3:06
You'll definitely want to hear this one.
Michael Pope 3:09
All right, let's get to the news. Thousands of people are behind bars right now, even though they should have already been released, but they weren't because of a budget amendment that changed how earned sentence credits work.
Thomas Bowman 3:27
Last month we had Sean Waneta of the ACLU on, who explained how a budget amendment from the governor will keep 8000 people in prison despite the fact they've already earned the credits to get out.
Michael Pope 3:40
One of those people is Antoine Anderson. Now he's serving time, right now, at the Coffeewood Correctional Center near Culpeper. And he was expected to be released this month. But after lawmakers approve that budget amendment, his plans unexpectedly got derailed. Geri Greenspan is an attorney with the ACLU who represents him.
Geri Greenspan 4:05
Mr. Anderson was expecting to drive his daughter to college. He has been incarcerated for his daughter's whole life. She's 18 now, she's going to college on a full scholarship. And he's missed so many milestones. He wanted to be there for this one. And he had told her that he would be. He then had to tell her on Father's Day that he actually wasn't coming home.
Thomas Bowman 4:28
Yeah, this is such a horrible story, Michael, and it's really heartbreaking for the people who are incarcerated and their family and loved ones like Anton Anderson's daughter.
Michael Pope 4:38
Well, Thomas, there may be some good news on the horizon for Antoine Anderson because with the help of the ACLU, he's suing the Department of Corrections saying the governor's budget amendment does not change how sentence credits work. Sentence credits that Anderson has already earned.
Geri Greenspan 4:58
The lawsuit makes a very simple legal argument that Mr. Anderson benefited from the 2020 expansion of the earned sentence credit program that he has earned credits toward an early release, the legislature explicitly said that those credits were to be awarded retroactively. And the budget amendment does not actually operate to cancel those credits out.
Michael Pope 5:23
So that's the question at the center of this court case. Does that budget amendment from earlier this year? Does it actually cancel out the credits that people in Virginia prisons have been earning since the law changed in 2020?
Thomas Bowman 5:37
I remember from the podcast that Democrats expanded that earned sentence credit program when they were in power, remind me what happened in 2020, Michael?
Michael Pope 5:46
Yes, so there was an earlier version of earned sentence credits that goes way back way before 2020. But it made no distinction between what crime you were convicted of. So you, you earn the same amount, regardless of what crime you had been convicted of. So in 2020, they changed it so that you could earn more credits and get out earlier, but not for all crimes, it was kind of the only, there were some, there were some exemptions to this. So you would not be earning the extra sentence credits if you are guilty of like, the most violent of violent crimes, you know, murder or rape, that sort of thing. So what the budget amendment did was, say, if you've got multiple convictions, then you're not earning any of these extra credits here. So what happened with Mr. Anderson is, you know, like many people serving time behind bars, he's not he hasn't been convicted of one crime, he's been convicted of three crimes. Two of those crimes are eligible for these extra earned sentence credits, but one of those convictions is not eligible. So as a result of this budget amendment, all of his extra sentence credits have been thrown out. So yeah, that's that's the situation that we're currently in. The problem is the timeline here, because the earned sentence credits were created in 2020. But they did not make them effective immediately. They made them effective in 2022. So there's this delayed enactment that has created this catch.
Thomas Bowman 7:25
And then Glenn Younkin, was elected governor and amended the budget.
Michael Pope 7:32
Yeah, so the timing here is the law did not go into effect until after Younkin amended the budget. So people have been earning these credits since 2020. But the new system did not go into effect until July of this year. So the budget amendment had the effect of canceling out of those earned sentence credits for you know, 8000 people. Now I asked Virginia, legal expert, Rich Kelsey about this legal question. And this is what he told me,
Rich Kelsey 8:02
What they're saying is that the law that came out on the exact same day that changes the pool, and the class had to relate back to 2020. That's a fine argument, if the law had been in effect since 2020. But it wasn't at no time was this law, in effect, and people accruing this time. And because they were not accruing that time and they did not detrimentally rely on a law then in effect. I think they're I think they're wrong on this. I don't think they're going to win.
Michael Pope 8:36
But are they wrong? I asked the ACLU lawyer about Kelsey's argument. And this is what she told me.
Geri Greenspan 8:44
The law that was passed in 2020 is retroactive and applies to time served prior to July 1, 2022. That was what the legislature in 2020 explicitly said, when they pass this law that's in the language of the bill. The budget amendment does not change that. The budget amendment contains no language addressing anything that happened prior to the effective date of the budget, which was July 1 of 2022. So the budget amendment is forward looking only, it doesn't change the fact that people who have served time prior to July 1 of 2022, are still entitled to the expanded earned sentence credits from the 2020 law.
Michael Pope 9:29
Listeners, I hope you're following all this, you know, Thomas, this kind of reminds me of one of those movies where people go back in time and make a change. And so there are multiple timelines, you know, like in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where are we talking about our timeline or the timeline from the thing that changed in the last episode?
Thomas Bowman 9:45
Or than now discarded Star Wars Legends timeline that used to be the EU?
Michael Pope 9:46
Yes.Yeah, you got it. Exactly. So I mean, are we in the timeline where people were earning sentence credits that would be effective and 2022 or are we in the timeline, that you could not earn credits if you had been convicted of a crime that was on the list of the exemptions? I mean, like, we don't really know. And that's the point of this lawsuit.
Thomas Bowman 10:11
And nobody says that the legislature and the Governor can't pull the rug out and move the goalposts from these people moving forward. But important point forward looking is different from completely wiping that slate out.
Michael Pope 10:30
Yeah, and then, you know, I mean, this is a budget amendment. So we're ultimately talking about money, which is the way they ended up doing this policy change, which seems to be not quite straightforward. I mean, like, this is really a policy debate that we're talking about, do should Mr. Anderson, be able to earn sentence credits, despite the fact that one of his convictions is on this list of the worst of the worst crimes? Or, you know, should he, you know, it's it's a policy question on whether or not he should be earning the expanded sentence credits. So to have it come down to this budget amendment, it seems like it might not really be the best way of making this policy decision, right?
Thomas Bowman 11:18
Yeah look, back when Republican Speaker Bill Howell was in charge of the House, he used to very frequently say "We're not going to legislate to the budget." He may agree or disagree with an individual amendment or a partisan goal behind it, but if you wanted to change policy, it needed a bill. It couldn't do it through the budget. And so the legislature is on record time after time after time of saying, we don't legislate through the budget. They don't like it when you do that. Of course it happens. But this is why they don't like doing it that way. Because it can have a lot of unintended consequences, because it doesn't get vetted like a regular bill would.
Michael Pope 11:58
Okay, let's move on to our next story. Conversion therapy may be illegal to do on children, but it's an A-Okay, therapy for adults.
Thomas Bowman 12:12
Conversion therapy is junk science.It's widely discredited junk science,
Michael Pope 12:18
Well now, it may be junk science. And it may be widely discredited, but the Virginia Department of Health Professions is telling licensed state health professionals it's okay to keep using this junk science and don't worry about losing your license. We know this because the Youngkin Administration's new townhall.virginia.gov
Thomas Bowman 12:39
Not to be confused with townhall.com.
Michael Pope 12:43
Yeah, please don't confuse it. So if you go to townhall.virginia.gov and search for petitions 365 you'll see what I'm talking about here. The petitioners name's Michael Moats. And he asked the Department of Health Professions to ban conversion therapy for all people, not just children, but for adults as well.
Thomas Bowman 13:01
Delegate Patrick Hope of Arlington banned conversion therapy for minors just a few years ago.
Michael Pope 13:06
Yeah, so hope had that bill back in 2020. This is kind of a theme of our episode, because the last discussion was earned income sentence credits, that was a reform that was made in 2020. This is another different reform that was made in 2020. That outlawed conversion therapy for minors. It said that any licensed health professional in Virginia who engages in this junk science on children, they'll lose their license. But that only happens if the patient is a minor. If the patient is an adult, it's still totally okay. And you know, we know this because they posted the agency's response from that request to ban it for adults, which was that the board consider the petition and decided to take no action. Well, Pennsylvania just took action, they banned conversion therapy for all ages. So maybe delegate hope might introduce a bill next to outlaw this junk science, no matter who the victim is and how old they are. Well, I asked elegant health about this last week, Thomas, and this is what he told me:
Patrick Hope 14:07
It's not something the general assembly should necessarily get involved in. Because we're dealing with adults who have the ability to make their own choice, we'd be the first state to do so. But I can tell you that if I were on the board, and I were a clinician, I would vote to put ethics and clinical standards ahead of what I consider conversion therapy to be as junk science.
Thomas Bowman 14:29
It sounds like he's passing
Michael Pope 14:29
the buck. I mean, he's basically saying this is not something the general assembly should do from his perspective, which is an interesting distinction, because he's saying this is something that general assembly should do if you're talking about minors. So I mean, like this is a practice that's widely viewed even by the General Assembly of Virginia as being abusive and detrimental if you engage in it with children, but if you engage in this kind of thing, therapy with an adult who has their own freewill and their own choice about like, what kind of therapy that they want to get involved in that... I mean, I guess what they're saying is, there is a right to engage in junk science if you want to engage in junk science.
Thomas Bowman 15:16
Well, here's the thing. I have a sneaking suspicion that delegate Patrick hope from Arlington County, Virginia will quickly be rolling that back when he hears from LGBTQ community advocates. We have a long standing government role to regulate consumer protection. And this is another consumer protection issue, Michael.
Michael Pope 15:37
Supporters of conversion therapy say health professionals should not have to worry about losing their state license if they engage in this. And the reason for that is because they view this as professional speech protected professional speech, even if it's widely discredited, that the professional speech is actually constitutionally protected. So I spoke to Victoria Cobb at the Family Foundation last week. And this is what she told me,
Victoria Cobb 16:03
there are quite literally 1000s of men and women who have received counseling regarding their unwanted same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, who are treated as if they don't exist by those who are seeking to deny them the ability to be counseled.
Michael Pope 16:17
So she's actually hoping that the Supreme Court will overturn Virginia's ban on health professionals engaging in conversion therapy with minors. She feels like that 2020 law that Patrick Hope was able to pass is unconstitutional. And she's hoping the Supreme Court will throw it out. Because that professional speech, from her perspective is protected professional speech.
Thomas Bowman 16:41
Yeah, the Supreme Court created a new rule called "professional speech" that is protected in 2018. That's really new. And I think that it's important context for this conversation, because consumer protection includes protecting people from becoming victims of predatory professions, right. So this definitely takes some understanding of the nuance and the issues at play here. But ultimately, speaking, equality for the LGBTQ plus community is about basic human values and the needs that we all share. And it's not a problem. It's not a sin. It's not wrong. It's not a health issue to be gay. There hasn't been actually, in 1990, doctors removed homosexuality as a disease from all medical literature. So there's no questioning that if you're somebody who believes that you're made in the image of God, Michael... You might also believe God doesn't make mistakes. People are who they are conversion therapy are going away, going against the way God made you. And I'm using this terminology because conversion therapy is often religious in nature, going against the way God made you or forcing somebody go through conversion therapy, is where the problem is.
Michael Pope 18:13
Yeah, well, I mean, part use the word nuance here. And part of the nuance that delegate hope is getting into here is if you force that on a child, and that child does not have the freewill to walk out of the room and said, This is junk science, I'm not going to engage in this the child is forced into it because they're a minor. So that's wrong. And that's been forbidden, right? Virginia, you can't do that anymore and keep a license, you'd lose your license if you do that. So I mean, that's, you know, something that Virginia General Assembly has already done. But the sort of the nuance here is delegate hope says, Well, what if you're an adult? And you've, you've got the freewill to believe in junk science. So like, what if you believed that the Earth was flat, and you wanted to go to a counselor, who also believed that the world is flat, and that's junk science, but you wanted to engage in it is that is going to a counselor who believes that the world is flat, the earth is flat? Is that protected speech?
Thomas Bowman 19:12
Well, what it is, is malpractice, because it is not based on science, you can't choose you can't willingly change your sexual orientation. Right? And so to peddle in the lie that you might be able to through some kind of reparative therapy. It literally goes against medical values.
Michael Pope 19:34
Yeah. And I actually wasn't aware of the Supreme Court case that Victoria Cobb identified. So it's it. I mean, it is it is on the horizon. Here, the Supreme Court might end up tossing out the ability of Virginia to deny licenses to help professionals who engage in this junk science. So that's on the horizon is something you might come up sometime soon. All right. So one more thing before we go, let's do up into the listener mailbag.
Thomas Bowman 20:02
Michael people loved our episode with Holly Seibold. So just a quick refresher on that one. Holly Seibold is a woman who runs an organization that was instrumental in repealing the sales tax on menstrual products in Virginia.
Michael Pope 20:18
So what kind of feedback are we hearing about our episode with Holly Seibold?
Thomas Bowman 20:23
Sure? Well, we we've got two that I want to highlight for you, Catherine Reed, thank you. She says great interview with Holly Seibold, founder of bras on the elimination of the tampon tax. She really liked it and Juli Briskman, who's allowed in County Supervisor from the Algonquin district says all men trading people appreciate this relief from discrimination. So this really resonated Michael.
Michael Pope 20:46
Hey, you know, we also heard from Fred Hussein, who's asking us to book John Fetterman on the show to connect with voters from all walks of life. So Fetterman, of course, is running a statewide campaign in Pennsylvania, against Dr. Oz. And so he's probably kind of busy right now. But I mean, you have to ask yourself, how crude would that be to invite him on? Was that that was that too bad?
Thomas Bowman 21:13
What a crudite...
Michael Pope 21:16
Now I have to admit, Thomas, I'm going to admit to you and to our listeners. I have actually used the word crude a day before I'm actually a fan of crudity. Some people call it a veggie tray, but I love those little baby carrots. Love the celery. I would say that if you really want to do a credit tape water that you need ranch dressing like Dr. Oz was all wrong here salsa and guacamole is not really what you need for a credit a tray you need ranch dressing.
Thomas Bowman 21:47
Yeah, definitely out of touch Michael, Dr. Oz and you for using the term crudite in your past.
Michael Pope 21:53
Yeah I'm out of touch. I'm also not running a statewide campaign where I'm trying to connect with blue collar voters.
Thomas Bowman 21:57
It's all right, embrace your fourth estate elitism.
Michael Pope 21:59
I'll lean into it.
Thomas Bowman 22:01
But like I've always just called that a veggie platter or, you know, vegan charcuterie board.
Michael Pope 22:09
Whoa, whoa, hold on a second. What was that word you just threw out there, Thomas?
Thomas Bowman 22:14
Meat tray. Yeah. Okay. All right. But, yeah, Fred, we'd love to have John Fetterman on maybe we've got somebody with connections who can get him on the show... Because I think that he could really offer a masterclass to aspiring Virginia candidates for office and how to appeal just to the average working class voter. Not, you know, the suburban wealthy elite, not the the Trumpist you know, populist, whatever. But John Fetterman would be a great guest. I'd love to have him on. Hopefully, that's something that can happen in the future when he's not busy campaigning for Office.
Michael Pope 22:57
All right, well, that's a great place to leave it make sure that you hit the subscribe button so you can catch our next episode about the economic toll of gun violence that will drop Thursday and you'll definitely want to check that out.
