Offshore Wind, Pipeline Transparency, Uranium in Virginia, and Upcoming Elections
IN THE NEWS:
The end of fossil fuels is blowing in the wind. The Coastal Virginia Offshore Wind proposal would be a massive new wind farm off the coast of Virginia Beach. But only if state regulators approve it. That decision is expected in the next month or so; even the membership of the three-member commission is in flux.
Do a better fracking job: That’s the message from the Government Accountability Office, which says the federal agency responsible for regulating pipelines needs to do a better job with the availability of data and consistency of enforcement. Opponents of pipelines say a lack of transparency and inconsistency of enforcement goes way beyond the problems outlined in the GAO report.
The Golden Goose. Virginia is sitting on one of the largest uranium deposits in the world. Plus, the recent discovery of gold in Buckingham County is reopening old discussions about commercial mining operations. Lawmakers are about to consider a ban on gold mining in Virginia that would be similar to the longstanding ban on uranium mining in Virginia, which dates back to the early 1980s.
At the Watercooler: Former Congressman Tom Garrett is seeking a return to the House of Delegates, while Delegate Sally Hudson is running for the state Senate against Senator Creigh Deeds.
Episode Transcript
William Limpert
On this episode of Pod Virginia.
Thomas Bowman
The end of fossil fuels is blowing in the wind.
What we have here is a binding commitment to say the company itself has to have some risks. It has to have some skin in the game.
Michael Pope
The relationship between gold and uranium
Mark Sabbath
Risks to the people who live near the mines and risks to the people who work in the mines.
Thomas Bowman
And the latest on those fracking pipelines.
Michael Pope
You're listening to Pod Virginia. Stick around.
I'm Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
I'm Tom Bowman.
Michael Pope
And this is Pod Virginia, a podcast that's trying to recover after a long holiday weekend. Thomas, how was your Thanksgiving? I hope you are recovering from it.
Thomas Bowman
Yes, lots of good food. I went over to my in-law's house and got to play a few games of pool on their brand-new pool table. They just moved down from Allentown, so it's nice to have them around.
Michael Pope
Oh, did you win?
Thomas Bowman
Ha No. My father-in-law is a pool shark who wins trophies and stuff. So be careful about playing pool with Mr. Fritz because he will take all your money.
Michael Pope
Sounds like a ringer. Well, let's get to the news. The end of fossil fuels is blowing in the wind. The coastal Virginia offshore wind proposal would be a massive new wind farm off the coast of Virginia Beach. But that's if state regulators approve it. A decision is expected in the next month or so, even if the membership of the three-member state corporation commission is in flux. Tim Sowinski at the Sierra Club says the proposed agreement now under consideration sets limits on how much customers of the utility would be on the hook if things go wrong.
Tim Sowinski
What we have here is a binding commitment to say the company itself has to have some risk; it has to have some skin in the game. And if they don't perform it the way that they're promising to, they can't pass those costs on to customers.
Michael Pope
So listeners of Pod Virginia will have heard us talk about this a number of times the last time we talked about this, the State Corporation Commission wanted a performance guarantee. So if this thing didn't crank out, all the power was supposed to would be held liable, and Dominion energy would be held liable. So the stakeholders of this thing got together and created an agreement that basically sets limits on how much money would be involved in the construction. So if it goes over a certain amount of money, then the ratepayers would have to share that burden with Dominion. If it goes past a larger amount of money, then Dominion would be on the hook and have some off-ramps. And the two current members of the SCC are going to make that decision sometime here in the next few weeks.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah. And the problem before with the SCC original decision was that it forced Dominion, in their words, to guarantee the weather. And they can't guarantee against the weather. They can't guarantee against collapse in a hurricane. Obviously, you want to build it strongly to protect against that, but they can't guarantee that it will become a target, a military target of some type. So Dominion said in their public communications that they weren't interested in being held liable for things that were obviously beyond their control. But from the ratepayer's point of view, they wanted to have some kind of guarantee that their costs weren't going to explode. And so now the stakeholders have an agreement that seems like there's going to be an agreement on caps that people who pay utility bills aren't going to have to do more than their fair share. And it also guarantees Dominion's ability to build these wind farms, all like 100 Plus eventual wind turbines, and it lets the clean economy continue moving forward. But it still needs approval now. Two people down SCC.
Michael Pope
So you say what the SCC originally wanted, sort of held Dominion liable for the weather, which, certainly, if you don't get the weather that you need, in the conditions that you need to have them in, it might not crank out as much electricity as you expect. I think the anticipation for this thing is it's going to crank out 15 megawatts. Something I mean, it's a lot of power. This thing is supposed to crank out once you get once you build all 180 turbines. What if it doesn't crank out 15 megawatts of power? I think that's what the SCC judges had their eyes on. It's interesting that the potential agreement that's on the table is just about construction costs. It's not about what happens after you, you build all 180 turbines, and does it crank out all the power that you're anticipating?
Thomas Bowman
The maintenance costs are anticipated to be a lot less certainly compared to traditional fuel generation, so or electricity generation. So I don't think anybody's really concerned about the ongoing costs because once you've built it, now you have a turbine that spins. And when it spins, it adds electricity to the grid. You can do a lot of the maintenance remotely from there. Minus, you know, there are certain parts that have to be like lubricated and whatnot, with the human being. But the vast majority of this is going to be done remotely with computers to monitor what's going on over there.
Michael Pope
Construction costs were and remain a big important concern because you see, with a lot of these huge projects, and other states, you know, there's the original cost, anticipated cost, and then sometimes it'll double or triple or quadruple, and the cost can easily get out of hand. So that's a good thing.
Thomas Bowman
That's why a business like Dominion would want to sign agreements with American labor unions because those labor unions and their project labor agreement are going to do things like control costs. When you can guarantee your labor costs, those unions are going to make sure that that project happens on time and on budget. That's a change compared to a non-union shop, which is going to put in a low bid, and then jack up pricing on you when shit hits the fan.
Michael Pope
So to speak.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, and I mean, shit hits the wind turbine. So that's why you don't want to use those kinds of low-road contractors to build things like this. You would much rather know it's going to be an expensive upfront investment no matter what you do. And so let's just build it right the first time with no cost overruns, or at least minimal cost overruns, you know, supplies or supplies. And then, once it's built, it's there. Obviously, not forever, but it's there.
Michael Pope
This agreement that's on the table is actually a really elegant way to handle the concern about construction costs if they go out of hand. Here's a plan that we've got to make sure that the ratepayers aren't on the hook. So check. I think that's been handled. The concern the SCC members might still have, and the reason, I guess, why they're walking through all of this is, so what happens once this thing is up and running, and you built all 180 turbines, and you're cranking out the power? What if it's not as much power as you anticipated? And I heard that's what they're considering.
Thomas Bowman
Well, from a utility company's point of view is like, what if it's too much electricity on the grid? Then all of a sudden, you are making the price of electricity so cheap that you can't earn sufficient revenue from it. And compare it to present energy generation techniques where you put only as much power on the grid as you actually want, as there is actual demand for and there is though a foreign policy objective behind effectively ubiquitous energy, Michael, and that's because Russia is basically a city with a gas station. They're one giant oil field is a gas field. And so if their only real way to earn significant revenue is through the energy industry, then the National Defense Policy judo there is to try to make energy free. And you do that by building things like these windmills; there's a ton of upfront cost in creating these windmills. But then the ongoing costs are negligible. How can you justify if you're Dominion, you've got to justify your revenue. And that is going to be hard and 10, 15, 20 years when the ongoing costs of that windmill and the electricity generation have gone to nothing. Now it's all overhead, and you're only allowed an 8% margin or 9% margin, whatever the legal agreement is. So there's an interesting balancing act here.
Michael Pope
The three-member SCC is currently down to two members because there's one vacancy, and one of those two people recently announced retirement by the end of this calendar year. So I think that's really created some incentives to put some finality on this before the Governor appoints or the Governor and the General Assembly puts two new people in there. So I think we're gonna get a decision on this pretty soon.
Thomas Bowman
That's a really important point that you just brought up, Michael, because the Governor is going to get a chance now earlier than he expected to be able to shape SCC policy, and the SCC has to approve all of the things like rate increases, not just for electricity, but also insurance, things like that. So Governor Youngkin is going to have the ability to impact the regulated business climate a lot earlier than he thought, and that is very substantive for things like these clean energy generation projects because the Governor has not been that supportive of those things.
Michael Pope
Let's move on to our next story. Do a better fracking job. That's the message from the Government Accountability Office, which says the federal agency responsible for regulating pipelines needs to do a better job with the availability of data and consistency of enforcement. Well, no, duh, is the response from people opposed to new pipelines carrying fracked natural gas in Virginia. They say a lack of transparency and inconsistency of enforcement goes way beyond the problems outlined in the GAO report. I spoke to William Limpert, who spent years trying to get information about the Atlantic Coast Pipeline and the mountain valley pipeline. And this is what he told me, I always.
William Limpert
I always thought the federal government was very competent and helpful. And my experience has just shattered that. It's really frustrating to keep asking these questions and not being given the answers.
Michael Pope
Yeah, the government seems like a good idea until you have to deal with it. And then you might have a different opinion about it.
Thomas Bowman
There's a Ronald Reagan joke in there somewhere.
Michael Pope
Plans for the Atlantic Coast pipeline had been discontinued, and all the parts of it were constructed. And now people need to figure out what to do with that. Efforts for the mountain valley pipeline are kind of on hold right now. There are all kinds of legal challenges and permitting delays. But here comes the GAO, saying, hey, government agencies do a better job in sharing this data and being consistent with your enforcement.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, I don't think anybody would argue that government agencies need to be transparent. And we need to have a clear and consistent set of rules of the road here. But this kind of gets to, for me, just how much regulatory oversight depends on who the overseers are, right? So you've got a lot of initiatives that can happen at the behest of people higher up, including the President, and so they're frequently going to be in a position or the secretary of whatever office it is, are going to be in a position to advance projects. And there's not really a good way to do that transparently that makes people not have eggs on their faces. But it's a really important point that we got at Resolute from the healthcare stuff is that more data is better, transparency is better, and it leads to better outcomes. And I think that, generally speaking. You can apply that to a lot of things, including energy policy.
Michael Pope
You know, what often happens with these regulatory agencies that oversee specific kinds of industries is they get co-opted by the industries, and so they do the bidding of the industry. And so I think among critics of pipelines, that's what they fear, this federal agency that ostensibly oversees pipelines in America that the critics say, well, these government agencies actually acting on behest of the industry they're supposed to be regulating,
Thomas Bowman
Now you're talking about government capture, or industry capture is the phenomenon you're talking about there. So or regulatory capture has got a few names. But basically, that's when the industry captures the regulatory body overseeing it either because they're all coming out of companies. It happens a lot in banking industries, which is where that happens very commonly. But you hire the experts because they come out of these industries, and then they do their 234 years, maybe even a little bit longer in their regulatory oversight. And then they're going back to those industries. Right. And they're getting rewarded when they return for anything that they've accomplished on behalf of the industry that they're not supposed to be working for. While they're in a regulatory position.
Michael Pope
Yeah, and so the GAO has given these reports, and hopefully, they will clean up their act and maybe be a little more transparent with the data. But the data part of this specification is something that you hear these opponents of the gas pipelines have really been critical of for a very long period of time as they just want basic stuff, basic information about these dangerous pipelines that are coming through their neighborhood. It could explode. And so they want to know about their own personal safety and security. And sometimes it's kind of difficult to get that information from this agency that regulates pipelines.
Thomas Bowman
And project out to the future, Michael too, because even if natural gas pipelines, those main lines, like the ACP and the MVP, are on their way out. As far as usable life when it comes to changing climates. We'll always be building some kind of pipeline because it's the safest, most efficient way to transport materials from one place to another across the country, especially volatile compounds that could explode on others in other settings like a train or train crash or a truck crash, right? So you don't necessarily want to move it on the roads that you and I are driving on. But pipelines are the safest way to do that. But they come with a lot of costs. And they're, you're going to need to keep building them for things like hydrogen in the near future. So it's important that government agencies not be captured. We're going to need a lot from them in the future.
Michael Pope
All right, moving on to our final news item for today. The golden goose, Virginia, is sitting on one of the largest uranium deposits in the world. Plus, the recent discovery of gold in Buckingham County. Well, all of that is reopening old discussions about commercial mining operations in Virginia. Now, lawmakers are about to come back to Richmond for the next General Assembly session, and they will be considering a ban on gold mining in Virginia that will be pretty similar to the long-standing ban on uranium mining in Virginia from the early 80s. Mark Sabbath at the Southern Environmental Law Center says lawmakers should be really careful about what kind of mining they allow in Virginia.
Mark Sabbath
They should be listening to the people of Virginia and their concerns about such a dangerous practice in terms of risks to the people who live near the mines, risks to the people who work in the mines, and then long-term risks to groundwater-surface waters and land all around the Commonwealth if these kinds of practices were permitted.
Michael Pope
You'll remember recently. We talked to Buckingham County Board of Supervisors Chairman Jordan Miles, who's pushing for a ban on gold mining in Virginia, similar to the one we've already got on uranium. So lawmakers will be considering that. Interestingly, there's also some movement on uranium. International Company has purchased some land in Pittsylvania County. And you know, it's possible we might see some movement on getting rid of that uranium ban. So really interesting relationship here between uranium and gold. How do you think this is gonna play out in the General Assembly?
Thomas Bowman
Well, it's easier to do nothing than to do something right. So if you've got bans, or whatever the status quo is, you're likely to just stay with the status quo. I don't see Virginia likely to lift a ban on uranium anytime soon if it can't even handle gold mining, which is a lot less dirty, relatively speaking, at least, but I don't know that Virginia is going to be a place that you're going to mind very much longterm, out west, it's far more friendly to mining abundant, you don't have a huge population, you have a lot of BLM public land out there. And you can get mining permits for that. And you don't have to play games with like property owners and try to buy them out. Virginia is sitting on this second largest, I think, in the world, outside of the uranium deposit in Afghanistan.
Michael Pope
A lot of money is to be made.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, if you zoom out longer on one, you want to conserve that. You want to mine your stuff last so that you have it when nobody else does. So long term, it doesn't really serve us to do anything except conserve those resources and find them from somewhere else. You're also going to need to see innovations in mining and how to mine not just uranium, not just gold, but other rare earth materials safely. And there are some interesting technological developments on that front, but it'll probably be around 10, 20 years, or so before you start seeing those in practice. But one of the things we were talking about electricity earlier, well, when you have a lot of electricity, you can actually use ions. You can separate like gold, and I don't know about uranium, but I would assume it's the same principle as other rare earth elements. Can you can basically separate the materials and the ions using electricity, giving us high enough voltage, and you don't necessarily need to have a ton of chemicals that you're pumping in and a ton of dirty mining practices. So something that's got to be in place before anyone ever, ever considers mining uranium in Virginia, much less gold or anything else, is we're going to need to figure out how to improve the technology that lets you do it safely and to minimize harm. And until that happens, we're going to need to be doing it probably out west, where it makes a little bit more sense to mine things because you don't have the people, you still have environmental concerns, don't get me wrong, but the goal is definitely to bring this stuff, domestic or domestic so on this side of the oceans, at least be it Canada or Mexico. We were trying to source locally. I think it would be a mistake to think that uranium mining never happens in America or in Virginia, at least because we have that huge deposit of it. But is it going to happen anytime soon? Not unless this new company that's bought this mine and bought this land is going to change the entire industry. We need that to happen first.
Michael Pope
There is some important historical context here, which is that the reason the General Assembly took action to ban uranium mining in the early 80s was a reaction to the Three Mile Island incident, which created lots of concern about what happens to all this radioactive material that is created as a result of radio of uranium mining. And so, the General Assembly was responding to recent events in the early 80s. So now, with gold, the only recent thing that has happened is the discovery of gold in Buckingham County. So we don't really have a huge disaster that the General Assembly members would be responding to. The argument for banning gold mining in Virginia. I'm not really it's not clear how much traction that's gonna get in this upcoming session,
Thomas Bowman
Especially if you can just do it in zoning, like, Okay, well, if you can achieve the outcome you're looking for, what do you need a state law for?
Michael Pope
Well, let's head over to the water cooler. Thomas. What's in your water cooler?
Thomas Bowman
What's in my water cooler? That's a loaded question. Here's what I've heard about the water cooler from the RTD. Former Congressman Tom Garrett is seeking redemption Michael and wants to come back to the House of Delegates.
Michael Pope
The House of Delegates. So yeah, I think he's interested in running for the House of Delegates 56 district, which is, by the way, the same district that the person we were just talking about, Buckingham County Board of Supervisors, Chairman Jordan Miles, isn't he running in the 56th? District?
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, so we got a super fan running against Tom Garrett. That's, that's going to be some race. Yeah, well, we're gonna have to watch that Tom Garrett is very open about his history of alcoholism, which I will say makes Richmond a pretty dangerous place to be, that Richmond runs on liquor often. That said, you know, he says he's cleaned up his act. He wants to get back in it. Okay. And also, you have supervisor Miles, who has come in to make a step as the Democratic nominee.
Michael Pope
Yeah. And it would be an election where both of the candidates have been guests on our podcast.
Thomas Bowman
Hey, yeah. Look at us Pod Virginia tastemakers. All right. What about you, Michael? What do you hear about the water cooler?
Michael Pope
Well, also kind of related to the upcoming election cycle. This election cycle is really interesting because we've got a lot of incumbents running against each other because of all these new districts. And so the latest one to emerge here is the state senate district where Creigh Deeds is running for reelection. And come to find out, he has got a challenger delegate, Sally Hudson. So we are probably going to see a senate district Democratic primary here that has Senator Creigh Deeds versus Delegate Sally Hudson. Gosh, what do you make of that, Thomas?
Thomas Bowman
I don't know what I make of it, yet Creigh Deeds is obviously a stalwart in Virginia politics and also very pivotal on things like mental health reform and making sure that that got enough funding and making sure more beds were available. And so things have gotten a lot better in Virginia over the last five or six years because of Creigh Deeds on the mental health front. He's going up as the senator from Bath County, but now he's got to represent Charlottesville, the city. And so, while they are similar areas and in the same geographical proximity, he's never had to represent the city of Charlottesville, at least, that I'm aware of before. Sally Hudson, as a professor at UVA, has at least a bunch of passionate students that she's counting on to come and vote for her and knock on doors to serve as a volunteer base in the city. And so what I'm Hearing, Michael, is that people seem to think that Sally Hudson is going to have the edge right now. Still, there's a longtime lot of game left to play. But I hear Sally's got the edge over Creigh Deeds because of those things. However, I think it is a mistake to discount Creigh Deeds. Sally Hudson can be a controversial figure in the Democratic caucus, not the most popular member of the caucus, and that will have some impact. Maybe Charlottesville city doesn't care. Creigh Deeds is gonna find out soon enough, but maybe they do care. And maybe they do want to be represented by Creigh Deeds.
Michael Pope
The X Factor in politics is, I mean, you can have somebody on paper and do all the math in terms of what they might do or not do. But then there is people's actual personality and how that resonates with people. Sally Hudson might not be the most popular person in the House Democratic Caucus. But you know, who is pretty popular is Creigh Deeds. The guy has been around a very long time. He's run statewide. He was the candidate for Governor the year Bob McDonald was elected. He's kind of like a folk hero to that part of Virginia. So I mean, clearly Sally Hudson is really smart, really bright, you know, an economics professor. And she would bring a lot to any campaign. But she's gone up against somebody who's kind of like a living legend. So I'm interested to see what's happening out there. You mentioned Bath County. That's really interesting. Creigh Deeds is the senator from Bath. That's how they introduce him on the Senate floor. This new senate district does not include a bath. And so I mean, that is kind of a, you know, an issue for him is he's going to need a lot of support there in Albemarle and Charlottesville, and I think Nelson and Amherst for the rest of the district, but not bad. So I mean, that is a handicap for him.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how this plays out. Also, Creigh Deeds is an older white male. There are a lot of people, just generally speaking in the Democratic Party, who think that it's time for older white male political figures just to step aside for a little bit and let other people take the reins and take the fight, whether it's generational, whether it's descriptive representation. And that's going to be a thread that we see this primary cycle. In cases where you have a relative newcomer like Sally Hudson taking on more established stalwarts, I think of in the house you've got Kathy Tran and a Tran friendly district now up against former Speaker Eileen Fillercorn, also a stalwart of Fairfax County politics. So like, there's going to be a lot of little vignettes like this throughout the 2023 election season, and I'm ready. I'm eager for us to be ready to do that episode, Michael.
Michael Pope
I'm ready for it. Yeah, smash the subscribe button because we will be talking about all these elections on Pod Virginia.
Thomas Bowman
That's a great place to leave it. Thanks for listening, and get ready for our excellent interview with the Chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee, US Congressman Bobby Scott, on Thursday.
