Michael Pope

Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the ongoing transition of power in Virginia politics. My name is Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, expanding protections for LGBTQ+ Virginians. What happens when crimes are committed against people because of their gender identity or their sexual orientation? Can a victim's gender identity or sexual identity be used as a defense in court?

Michael Pope

Or what about a person's perceived gender identity or perceived sexual orientation? Sometimes a crime is not based on reality, it's based on perceptions. Sometimes the defense of a crime is based on the panic about learning of someone's sexual orientation, or gender identity. These are all gray areas in Virginia's law.

Thomas Bowman

And we have a really amazing guest to help us understand these issues. We're joined by the first transgender member of the House of Delegates, heavy metal enthusiast, who spent a career as a journalist before running for office, Delegate Danica Roem. Thanks for joining us.

Danica Roem

It's great to be here. Thank you so much.

Michael Pope

Delegate Roem, we're going to talk about your bill to abolish the panic defense. And we're also going to talk about a bill introduced by Senator Ghazala Hashmi, a bill that expands the definition of what a hate crime is, plus, later in the show, we're going to talk heavy metal and we're going to rank all the Metallica albums.

Thomas Bowman

Michael wanted to do a show only on Metallica.

Michael Pope

Thomas wisely, talked me out of that. And then, Delegate Roem, I saw your bill on panic defense, which is fascinating. So let's start with that. Now for listeners who want to hear about Metallica, stick around for segment three of the podcast, and I promise you we're going to talk about all of the Metallica albums later. But we're going to start with House Bill 2132, a bill that you introduced, Delegate Roem, to abolish the panic defense in Virginia. Now, I can hear many listeners sort of thinking to themselves, "Panic defense? What the heck is that?" Delegate Roem, what is the panic defense, and how did this bill come about?

Danica Roem

Alright, so I'll answer that second question first, and then we'll get back to the first. So the bill actually came as an idea from one of my constituents in Manassas Park, who's a student, who's out, who sent me an email during the summer of 2020, basically saying, "Hey, could you please file a bill to do this? Because this is, you know, horrible." And as for just talking about what the panic defense actually does, basically, what happens is that someone will use your sexual orientation, or gender identity, as the provocation for why they attacked you in a heat of passion rage. And then, not only is that what they'll say, provoked them to attack you, but that it excuses their attack. And so, rather than deem it with malicious intent, aka, you know, murder, they will say that it was more or less accidental, "I was in a fit of rage because I couldn't possibly help myself, you would understand if you were in my shoes, too, wouldn't you?" At which point they can get their sentences reduced or they can be sentenced for manslaughter instead of murder two charges. And since the most high profile case happened to be Matthew Shepard, I think that one resonates in people's minds so much and that if you can understand the horror of the torture, that that poor soul endured, in that rural area in Laramie, Wyoming when he was pistol-whipped, drug out to a fence post and tied up and left to die. It's just what was this crime? It was for existing as a gay man in rural Wyoming.

Michael Pope

You know, in court, the murderers of Matthew Shepard tried to argue that the reason they committed the crime, was the sexual orientation of the victim. This is sort of classic blaming the victim. Now one of the people supporting your bill, Delegate Roem, is Judy Shepard, the mother of Matthew Shepard, and the founder of the Matthew Shepard Foundation. She testified in favor of your bill when it was before the criminal subcommittee of the Courts of Justice. And here is a bit of her testimony.

Judy Shepard

The panic defense relies on ugly stigmas, particularly to the LGBTQ people, to justify horrific violence against LGBTQ+ individuals. When a perpetrator uses the LGBTQ+ panic defense, they're claiming that the victim's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression not only explains but excuses, the loss of self-control and subsequent violent assault or murder. Under the LGBTQ+ panic defense, hate crime victims’ very identity simultaneously becomes the reason for their murder and the exoneration of their murderer.

Michael Pope

Now, after she finished testifying, the chairman of the subcommittee, Delegate Mike Mullen said this was some of the most powerful testimony he's ever heard in his career. Delegate Roem, what was it like for you to hear Judy Shepard testifying in support of your bill?

Danica Roem

Well, you know, in the run-up to, you know, that testimony, we had heard about a week and a half, two weeks ahead of time, that she was going to be willing to testify. And I told the Subcommittee Chairman, Mike Mullin, who is also one of the chief co patrons of the bill, by the way, I was, like, "Just so you know, um, we got, you know, we have Judy Shepard testifying," and his reaction was just, "Oh, wow." And I was like, "It's quite possible that there's not going to be a dry eye in the room." So just so we understand that, when you do have someone of the caliber of Judy Shepard, who is, you know, testifying for a bill in Virginia, it should speak to the volume of importance about what this means and why this is important. At that point, just to use another journalism Axios we always say, you know, show, don't tell? Well, I don't have to tell you that bill's important when Judy Shepard is speaking in favor of it, that should tell you everything.

Thomas Bowman

You know, I wasn't necessarily planning to make an announcement. But since the Shepard Foundation has been invoked, I should probably disclose that, as of this past week, my own firm, Resolute Strategies Group, just signed the former Matthew Shepard Foundation CEO, Jason Marsden, to our firm. So we're expanding our footprint, and he brings a lot to the table, but breaking news and a disclosure. So anyway, Delegate Roem, your bill had many people testify in favor, including the Office of Attorney General Mark Herring, the Commonwealth's Attorney for Prince William County, and the National LGBT Bar Association. But it also has some critics. Doug Ramsar, at the Virginia Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers said, "Categorical bans on potential defenses are not a good way to protect the LGBTQ+ community,"

Doug Ramsar

Every case is different. And we need to resist the impulse to prohibit a defense because we find it distasteful. And while there have been plenty of examples of things happening in other states, we've not aware of examples in Virginia where this has become a problem.

Thomas Bowman

What do you make of those two arguments Danica? "It hasn't happened here. And it's generally a bad idea to take any legal defense off the table." Does this infringe on the defendant’s ability to mount a defense?

Danica Roem

Number one, no, it doesn't. Number two, it has happened in Virginia. And so when I was in subcommittee, I was reading out the list of you know, cities were just based on my own team's research, we found that there was a Norfolk or Williamsburg, Hampton, just like trust, it happens in Virginia. I wouldn't have brought the bill forward if you know, this was not a problem in Virginia. And the third part on this about, you know, is it a bad idea to you know, take any legal defense off the table? Well, we already do take a legal defense off the table with bribery. You can't say, "Oh, I was bribed. So I'm absolved now." And then, in regard to this defense, keep in mind, you were saying, that someone's sexual orientation and gender identity in and of itself, without any person attacking, without someone, you know, going up and throwing a fist, or drawing a gun, or anything like that, that that mere existence of someone's sexual orientation or gender identity, is the reason for you to kill them or maim them, and then be excused for doing it. It's a patently bs argument that I absolutely refuse to accept. And so this bill makes that explicitly clear and the problem is that there are, unfortunately, too many places throughout, you know, America, quite frankly, where a judge could hear that sort of transphobic or homophobic argument, and be like, "Oh, okay, yeah, I would I would have a similar reaction if one of them showed up in front of me, or if they talk to my daughter," or, you know, just like some stupid thing like that. That's, that's real, that is extremely real. And the last thing on this is, how could you possibly look at the Matthew Shepard case, if nothing else, just to go with the one that we all know about, as opposed to the plethora of others to choose from here. How could you look at this case of Matthew being horrifyingly tortured, and say, "You know, that was an adequate response to his sexual orientation? I would have done the same thing by tying him up to a fence post." Absolutely ridiculous argument and I refuse to accept it.

Michael Pope

Now, when your bill came before the Criminal Justice Subcommittee, there was some wordsmithing when the committee members were doing kind of a technical change here. And that led to this really interesting interchange. I want to play this and get your reaction to it. Here's Delegate Mike Mullin asking you if this technical tweak was okay with you.

Mike Mullin

Sounds like everyone's in favor of it. Delegate Roem, are you alright?

Danica Roem

Yeah, I mean, you know, other than being emotionally crushed by, you know, having to think back to being 14 years old and being scared to come out because of Matthew's murder? Other than that, yeah, I'm very okay, right now, if not completely devastated and heartbroken.

Michael Pope

Delegate Roem, what was happening here? Talk about your experience as a 14-year-old, learning about the death of Matthew Shepard, and what that moment means for you now?

Danica Roem

You know, it was funny was when I heard you know, Delegate Mullin's, question to me of, "Are you alright?" I literally thought he was asking about my emotional state. Not in the context of the technical amendment. And so it was a very honest answer to the question, "Are you alright?" But it was, it wasn't exactly like in the context of what he was asking, though, in hindsight, like, oh, if you were to play the rest of the audio, you would have heard him say, like, "Oh, we're talking about the vote?" Oh, yeah, that's fine. Sorry. Yeah, that was just a misunderstanding on my part. But um, although hey, I appreciate it in any event. What I do remember, though, was having a very thorough understanding that, for me to come out at that age, would have resulted in isolation, having no friends anywhere, because there were no...in the entire time I was in high school, I knew of one out gay person, one, through four years, and he wasn't in my grade, he was a couple of years ahead of me. Now, I know, like seven people who I went to school with who have come out since graduating, and some of whom actually, you know, have like, you know, same-sex spouses and everything. And so I found it was kind of funny that the way we kind of are today is who, I think we would have wanted our high school selves to know that we could become, but at the same time, I also think that it speaks volumes to how scary that time was, you know, in Virginia, and people sometimes will say, like, "Oh, is Virginia really part of the South?" Well, other than the fact that I represent the first battlefield of this, you know, American Civil War, in my district, you know, Battle of Manassas, I have to emphatically say that, like, yes, culturally and geographically, yes, we are. And on top of that, ask any out person in the late 90s, who was living in Virginia, whether they thought Virginia was just this bastion of progressivism, and you're not going to find a lot of people who are going to tell you, "Oh, yeah, everything was just swimmingly going great." It wasn't. And I know that when Matthew got killed, it was one of those things where you look at it, and you go, "Oh, yeah, that could have happened here," and not even thought twice about it. Absolutely. That could have happened in Virginia. And quite frankly, it still could. It's just that now Virginia has gotten to a point where culturally the shift that has happened, in the most populous areas, especially, is one where it's a lot more welcoming and warm, toward inclusivity. And because of our population growth, and when you have, you know, density to go with that population, you have more people getting to know more people from more walks of life. And so in that regard, our population is a lot less homogenous than it used to be. And that means that people are used to diversity at a different level now than they used to be. That is not universal throughout. Virginia though, and that's not to have a volley of criticisms toward rural areas, because that certainly, you know, happens in cities and suburbs as well, you know, like, let's get real, but I do think it speaks to the idea that where we were when I was a 14-year-old freshman, who very much knew that I was Trans and Queer, but was mortified to tell anyone, I think our society's changed a lot. But that internalized fear is very much still present. Otherwise, my constituent from Manassas Park wouldn't have been sending me that email asking for this bill in the first place.

Michael Pope

Well, you know, Delegate Roem, the 14-year-old Michael Pope is really excited we're talking about Metallica later in this podcast. But first, when we come back from the commercial break, we're going to talk about a similar bill to the one we were just talking about over on the Senate side that expands what counts as a hate crime.

And we're back on Transition Virginia, we're talking with Delegate Danica Roem about legislation aimed at expanding protections for LGBTQ+ Virginians. And I want to talk about it's already been killed this Session, a bill that was introduced by Senator Ghazala Hashmi of Richmond. She introduced a bill after being approached by Henrico County Commonwealth's Attorney, Shannon Taylor, who wanted to prosecute a hate crime, but she was having a hard time with how Virginia law works. Now at issue here, in this case, was an incident where a white guy assaulted someone at a Black Lives Matter rally. Shannon Taylor wanted to prosecute the assault as a hate crime, but there was a problem because the victim was white.

Shannon Taylor

We were unable to make an argument to the court, that just because the race of both parties was the same, that did not mean that we should not be focusing on the intent of the defendant, because our current law looks more at the victim, and the victim's characteristics, than it does looking at the offender and his intent.

Michael Pope

Oh, and there's also this to consider, about the guy who assaulted the BLM protester.

Shannon Taylor

This offender was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. And the ideology, regarding the Klan, is about white purity, and that if you associate yourself with anybody who was not white, not part of the Klan, you are less than them.

Michael Pope

Now senators rejected this idea. They rejected the idea that someone's Association could be used to prosecute someone for a hate crime. Here's Senator Chap Peterson, of Fairfax City.

Chap Peterson

It seems to me this would sweep up almost 95% of crimes. You know, for example, there could have been vandalism in the City of Richmond this summer, that was directed at some businesses, because of the perceived association of that owner, they may have been perceived as being white. So I think, before you change the statute in this massive way, I, to me, you're getting pretty far afield from the original purpose, but that's just my opinion.

Michael Pope

Now Senator Peterson's view was the prevailing opinion and the committee killed Ghazala Hashmi's bill. Delegate Roem, what would you say to Senator Peterson and others who are concerned that extending a hate crime to someone's association with a protected group, that's a bridge too far?

Danica Roem

Well, I guess the first thing that, you know, I would say, first off, I've had a really good working relationship with Senator Peterson, especially when we've been dealing with Dominion issues, for example, over the last few years. So, you know, like, I understand that Senator Peterson is not coming from this issue from a place of malice. Were...you know, I've been in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee enough times to know that they really really pour over the words and they're, you know, they're just trying to poke holes in your arguments to make sure it's legally sound, so I understand where Senator Peterson's coming from. I you know, I signed on to to help support this bill because they also very much understood where Senator Hashmi, as well as Commonwealth's Attorney Taylor were coming from this. And what they were really trying to get at here is saying like, "Look, the intent of a Klu Klux Klan member, you know, trying to get someone killed, is not something that they were doing because, you know, they were just like, 'Oh, man, you really got me angry because you cut in front of me at 7/11 or some,' like they like when someone is being targeted, in this case, for their association with an ideology, or association with a protest, right, that you were targeting that person at that point for their identity via Association."

Michael Pope

So what do you make of Senator Peterson's comment here that this change would sweep up 95% of crimes?

Danica Roem

Well, I mean, like, you know, I think that was probably hyperbolic. And that's okay. You know, it's like, I understand that he was just trying to make a larger point. At the same time, I also, you know, just have a difference of opinion and a different view than he does. And, you know, he's an attorney, I'm not, but you know, I also did cover a lot of cops crimes and court sort of stuff, even though that wasn't my primary beat. So I just have a difference of opinion and hopefully, be able to hash that out and get some better next year.

Thomas Bowman

The Senate hearing also had a pretty dramatic moment that I want to get your take on, Delegate Roem. It all started when Senator Joe Morrissey said it's, "Offensive that advocates for this bill are wrapping it up in Black Lives Matter."

Joe Morrissey

That's like me going down to a Gay Pride parade. And I see another white male there, and I get into a fight with him for reasons entirely unrelated to Gay Pride. I am going to be prosecuted for a hate crime because I'm associated with a Gay Pride parade. And that's what's going on here. And I gotta tell you, I am offended that folks brought this and then wrap it up in BLM and suggest that if we vote against it, somehow we're not supporting the prosecution of hate crimes because that's not what we're doing.

Thomas Bowman

Okay. That outrageous comment from Morrissey, prompted Senator Hashmi to say this.

Ghazala Hashmi

You're speaking from a position of privilege if you see it in the context-

Joe Morrissey

Oh my god...

Thomas Bowman

That triggered this mansplaining from Republican Senate Leader, Tommy Norment.

Tommy Norment

I've got to tell you, I take extraordinary exception, and anyone, regardless of how much respect I have for them, suggesting that because I disagree with them, that I am speaking from a position of privilege. And I say, if I am privileged, it's only because I have something of a legal training and a lot of experience in litigating cases that gives me a little more insightful perspective on what's required on a burden of proof.

Thomas Bowman

How much more privileged can you be than being on the board of a bank? Okay. Was Senator Morrissey speaking from a position of privilege? Why did Hashmi's comments trigger Norment like that?

Danica Roem

So I'm a good legislator who's been very successful at passing her bills, and the State Senate did not kill any of my previous 17 bills. I have another six of them going over to the Senate. And just because the General Assembly has more drama than a high school theater class, does not mean that I am going to do anything to subject my bills to what we will call, enhanced interrogation. So I'm going to not go ahead and attack the members of the committee that I need my bills to go through and pass. I'll take a hard pass on that and just say that the Senate works in mysterious ways.

Thomas Bowman

All right, well, maybe Delegate Roem, can you explain how the bill fits in with the overall push for a more inclusive and responsive criminal justice system for diverse communities?

Danica Roem

Yes, absolutely. So happy to talk about that. Yes. So regarding, you know, just like that, trying to make it more inclusive, responsive, I think what we see here is that when you have under-representation, throughout government, if you don't have a lot of people of color, and you don't have a lot of people from diverse nonhomogenous backgrounds, you know, in positions of power, not just in the Senate, House of Delegates, but you know, just throughout the criminal justice system in general, then you will have a lot of issues that are going unaddressed or because people are unaware of them, that they are having to learn on the spot, or they're not necessarily you know, going to be you know, particularly well versed on issues that affect people who are quite different from who they are. And if you think about this, how many out LGBTQ prosecutors are there in Virginia? Do you know of any?

Thomas Bowman

I have no idea.

Danica Roem

I like to think I know all the LGBTQ elected officials in Virginia and I don't. So, if you don't have that, you're not going to have a lot of people then who inherently understand that issue, right? And by the way, and I want to just say like when I was saying LGBTQ prosecutors, I strictly meant that in the elected way, okay? So, for example, there used to be, you know, Tracy Thorne-Begland, who's now a general District Court, you know, member in in Richmond, you know, he was prosecutor before, you know, he was tapped for that job. And there was the huge confirmation fight that my predecessor led over Tracy Thorne-Begland, you know, being appointed to the General District Court in the first place. And then when we got to vote to reconfirm him, there was no opposition, and I had this like just we'll just say Cheshire Cat grin on my face as I was looking up at the scoreboard just realizing like, wow, we've really turned a corner where Tracy Thorne-Begland's nomination is no longer a 2:30 in the morning, members storming out of the House of Delegates, and all this other sort of stuff. So I think, you know, having more people who have more diverse worldviews and diverse lived experience, being in positions of power, well, number one, that will diminish the argument of privilege, although it is certainly, you know, not exclusive in that regard. But I would also say that, in terms of inclusivity, and just like making the criminal justice system more responsive for diverse communities in general, that you will have people understanding that, yes, issues like this, that we're trying to deal with, are not simply one off, that they are systemic, and that there's a cause for why they're systemic, and that the way that we can deal with them needs to be really holistic instead of just piece by piece whenever they come up.

Michael Pope

All right, we're gonna take a break. And then when we come back, we're going to talk about Metallica.

And we're back on Transition Virginia. You know, I was going to use some audio from a Metallica song here, but I didn't want Lars Ulrich to come after me with a lawsuit, so we're not going to do that. But we are going to talk about something that Thomas and I, when we first started talking about launching this podcast, one of our, one of my original goals, was to get Danica Roem on the podcast, to talk about Metallica. Now, we're gonna lay the groundwork here. Some of our listeners might not know your background, Delegate Roem. Tell our listeners about your musical history with your band.

Danica Roem

Yeah, so um, I was the vocalist and for the entire duration of my, now former band, Cab Ride Home, from 2006 to 2017. For the first three years I also played guitar, actually three and a half years, I was also a rhythm guitar player, and I had a college band before that and so we played a lot of shows, we played probably about 160 some odd shows. We, you know, got to tour Belfast, Northern Ireland, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen in Scotland, that was in 2012. You know, we opened for just like a lot of really good like internationally touring metal bands. I say like one of the highlights of that was we got to play a sold out show, headlined by Amon Amarth at Jack's Nightclub in West Springfield Virginia so, you know, like and our style of music was very thrash, melodic death, kind of also like, if you remember from the early 2000s that like new wave of American heavy metal, like bands like Lamb of God...Shadows Fall, very much fell into you know into theirs as well, while at the same time, you know, having you know very blatant influences for like Municipal Waste out of out of Richmond by the way and then all your classic big four bands too. So, but we also very much drew from a lot of Swedish melodic death metal bands like you know, we would cover Blinded by Fear by At the Gates on episode 66 by inflames off the horrible album and I like that like it plays was one of my favorite bands of the two and including the clay man album and then not after that. So one of the things I like telling people is um I'm not the politician who sort of kinda likes heavy metal or like oh yeah you'll I really liked the...song or some stupid crap like that. Like no I'm from the underground, like I was directly like did from the underground so I am not a casual heavy metal fan. I am a thoroughbred metal head. I feel like this is this has been my life for since I was you know, early teenager.

Michael Pope

You know, I sent you a note that we were going to talk about Metallica, and I said, "So Delegate Roem, you've got some homework. I want you to rank the albums in terms of least favorite to most favorite," and I did that as warning, thinking that you would like need some time to put some thoughts to it but like within a minute you actually sent me your list which I was not expecting.

Thomas Bowman

She has it ready to go, copy paste.

Danica Roem

Just for the record. These are full length LP albums with no covers. These are just the original material, so this is not Garage Ink, you know a garage day's review visited the $5.98 cent EP from 1987. Nor is this Life Should Binge and Purge, it's not SMN one, it's not SMN two, these are just the original albums promotional material.

Thomas Bowman

You know before we get going, it's probably important to point out to listeners there are no truly bad Metallica albums.

Danica Roem

There is one. There is one Thomas.

Thomas Bowman

Okay, well, the individual music may or may not float everybody's boat, but the origin story for each album is fascinating, the time period shifts, generally speaking, but let's get going starting with number 10.

Danica Roem

Number 10, last place, comes St. Anger, came out in 2003. I was 18 years old. I was so excited that, now that I was like fully fledged, you know, complete total metal head, and Metallica was releasing a full length album of original material for the first time since '97. You know, and I was just like, "Oh my god." So I ran into the Best Buy off of Sudley Road in Manassas, got right to the display deck, grabbed the copy, ran to check out, this is the day that it was released, the hour that Best Buy open the doors. And I ran into my car, put it in frantic was going, and I cranked it up. And I was just like, "Yes, Metallica!" And I was so happy that there is new Metallica, that it took a long time for me to let down my guard and start actually analyzing the production value, the lack of Kirk Hammett guitar solos...

Michael Pope

And those drums those horrible sounding drums.

Danica Roem

The fact that Lars' drums sounded like a, you know, a thin paint can that had been left out to rust behind like, you know, an old warehouse, and that he was beating it with a mallet that was probably made out of aluminum, or just like your variant Coke can. It was just like it, I was trying so hard to defend that album to the death. And I can't.

Michael Pope

I feel like you have to give them a pass here because they were essentially going through a divorce. Right? So they were getting rid of their longtime bass player and they're bringing in a new bass player. And clearly they were having some emotional issues that they were working through.

Danica Roem

This is this is actually true. I told anyone who was willing to listen at the time, that even once I realized that this was not a good album top to bottom, I did tell people, this is a step in the right direction, whether you believe it or not. They're like, "What, how could you possibly say that?" I'm like, because they're doing something they haven't done since the 80s. They're being intentionally aggressive.

Michael Pope

So I feel like you know, I don't want to dump on this album too much. So just being a positive person in general, I like to look on the bright side of things. So there's two things about this, one is, you have to give them credit for not making the Black Album part two, which they could have done and made millions and millions of dollars. And they didn't do that. So credit to them for that.

Danica Roem

I think that's more related to Load and Reload than it is to St. Anger.

Michael Pope

Yeah, that's Yeah, that's true. But also another positive thing you could say about the album is the album cover is actually pretty cool. I like the cover.

Danica Roem

The album cover, if I remember correctly, it was, in Metal Maniacs, it was voted as favorite and simultaneously least favorite album cover?

Michael Pope

That's success I like it.

Danica Roem

Yeah. It was actually and it was a Pus Head design. And typically Pus, only did like, you know on their t shirts and stuff, like all the skulls and like, you know, like all the stuff that you typically associate with Metallica, like iconography on that they, you know, pus has been you know, their artists since the 80s. But, yeah, he actually did do the fist and you'll remember that there were a lot of variant colors like color patterns for that fist. And so I think that was just a way to get people to buy four copies of the same album or whatever, but whatever.

Michael Pope

Well, you just sort of touched on something which is Black Album, Part Three to make millions of dollars, which I see is number nine on your list. Reload, talk about Reload.

Danica Roem

Okay, I will tell anyone who's willing to listen on this one, that there is a fantastic song on Reload, it is the last track of the album, "Fixer." "Fixer" falls in the same vein as "Bleeding Me" and "Outlaw Torn" on where if you put those three songs together. and I also mean the unencumbered by manufacturing restrictions version of "Outlaw Turn" just just to be clear, you can produce about like, trying to think off top my head, probably what 27 solid minutes of good Metallica music from the mid 90s, that you might not otherwise expect? And there's a couple other like you know like surprising gems to on on Reload that I think people will like also overlook. I always really liked "Carpe Diem Baby" I thought that was great and "Where the Wild Things Are" was actually the only song of the mid 90s era that Jason Newsted got writing credit for and I also that was good you know, he also he got writing credit for Black and On Justice For All, which we'll get to later, and he got writing credit for "My Friend Misery" on the Black Album and "My Friend Misery" by the way, his baseline that ended up on the album, is slightly different from his original concept of that intro baseline. But you know, I would also say that like you can find some good aggressive moments, and here's the thing, if you're a hardcore underground person, you'll hear something like feel and you're like, "Oh come on, that's just radio whatever blah blah." Oh, like you haven't sped on I66 or something else while listening to "Feel", Yes, you have. Like come on, give me a break. Anytime that song comes on or especially when it's done live, it's super fun live. Like just like you know that's one of those get off your high horse and you know, just go and enjoy it and not to mention, Jesus, when you have like consistent double bass from Lars in the mid 90s? That's a special moment, just take it.

Michael Pope

Now next on your list is something I'm going to disagree with you on, Death Magnetic, you've ranked way toward the end here at number eight. I think this is one of their strongest albums, this is this is one of their newer albums, came out in 2008. And...I just love this thing. Also, I love when people sort of later in their career shine and they're they're not just putting out stuff to make money, they're really sort of pushing their art forward and they continue making these very strong albums. Death Magnetic is a really amazing album.

Danica Roem

So here's here's what the unfairness of a ranking of ten to one is that there is such a chiasm and gulf between some of these numbers and I would argue from like eight on, you're dealing with exceptional quality, in a lot of cases, and I thought when I said that St. Anger was a step in the right direction because they were learning how to, you know, relearn how to become aggressive, Death Magnetic was the manifestation of that, with Robert Trujillo on bass, where they put out just really good stuff you know, it's like "Judas Kiss" is on there, you know "That Was Just Your Life"...you know what were they "All Nightmare Long" almost has a disposable here sort of feel to it, not quite that level of technicality, but like just in terms of it's like buildup and stuff so. Oh yeah like Death Magnetic...I was at the World Magnetic Tour a couple times as in you know in DC and Philly and and actually yeah, let's see and Yankee Stadium the Bronx for the big four um, you know, I got there during Slayer set you remember at like 2011 now it's like 10 years ago so. Yeah, look love...you know and the live show during the World Magnetic Tour where they had like the green lasers coming down and everything was super cool. So yeah, no complaints regarding Death Magnetic. Great album.

Michael Pope

Well on the issue of their more recent albums, 2016, Hardwired to Self-Destruct is next on your list. Again, I...you have to give these people credit for consistently coming out with new albums that push their artwork forward. Hardwired to Self-Destruct, such an amazing album. Might might in fact be one of my, probably my, I don't know, one of my favorites. I've I feel like Hardwired to Self-Destruct should be toward the top of the list.

Danica Roem

So the reason that Hardwired to Self-Destruct comes in that seventh instead of higher, is because if you were to change the distortion on it, it's basically them trying to do Kill Them All part two, to some degree. But the reason it actually outpaces Death Magnetic is for one very specific reason. "Spit Out The Bone" is fucking amazing that...that is the best stuff they've done in terms of aggressive thrash since Diers Eve. It is so so good in effect on Liquid Metal and you know I very much listen to Liquid Metal every day, they actually, when they are doing their Devils Dozen of the Decade, "Spit Out The Bone" came in number one and I was just like hell yeah it did and they were kind of torn between "Hardwired" you know or "Spit Out The Bone" they made the right choice with "Spit Out The Bone."

Michael Pope

"Atlas Rises" was one of my favorite Metallica songs.

Danica Roem

It was good and in like that and they also they play that one live too which is good, as it closes the show, but "Spit Out The Bone" is Metallica style Metallica. You know what I mean? Like so for hardcore 80s Metallica, metal heads who probably haven't listened like like the band's since the Black Album, or before they hear that they go "Oh, wow."

Thomas Bowman

Speaking of the Black Album, that's probably their most commercially successful of all their ventures?

Danica Roem

Not probably Absolutely. It's the most commercially successful metal album ever. In fact, like the highest selling album, "The SoundScan Error" is just, you can't overstate, it's impossible to overstate the impact of the Black Album.

Michael Pope

Okay, so controversial question here Delegate Roem, did they sell out?

Danica Roem

No, they intentionally wanted to make an album that was different for And Justice for All, because And Justice for All had gotten to this pinnacle of progressive songwriting, that, if you were to follow it, you would just start turning your band into a rush, you know what I mean? Like they were, they had reached this, this peak of where they want to go with that. And so when they brought in Bob Rock, Bob wanting to strip them down more or less like to bare parts, and really get them to just make good heavy songs. And as they did that, who could possibly have anticipated in the writing process of that album, that the Black Album would sell 15 million copies and 30 years later would still be on a billboard top 200 or fewer going to intentionally sell out on a record, it's going to be a flash in the pan, it's going to show up, it'll exist and it goes away. Right? The Black Album's legacy has endured for 30 years now and it's just even Tom Araya from from Slayer will be like, "Oh, yeah," I mean, like they were putting out Seas Out in the Abyss" while Metallica was putting out the Black Album so like Slayer was still very much being Slayer but they're like, like, you can't fault someone who puts out the most successful metal album ever.

Michael Pope

You can. Speaking of successful metal albums, the number five on your...

Danica Roem

I'm not done with number six though. One thing one thing, okay. Okay. "My Friend Misery" as previously mentioned, and "The God That Failed," that the reason this comes in at number six and where it is, is those two songs, I don't care who you are, in terms of like, Oh, well, you know, I don't like you know, I don't like entertainment. I don't like you know, your sandwich or whatever. Those two songs are perfect. They are. They are just heavy. And "The God That Failed" lyrically, about James's mother refusing treatment and then dying because of being a Christian Science follower, he went really emotionally raw in the writing of those lyrics. And that resonated with me so much. I loved love the intensity of the lyric writing in his voice and doing it and "My Friend Misery". I mean, that just if you've ever just been down or frustrated by you know, just people being down around you Oh my God, "My friend Misery" is just perfectly heavy. I love it. I love that song.

Michael Pope

Now, I'm gonna have to take issue here with your next highest album here. Yeah, everyone will at number five. Explain this. You've ranked Load above Death Magnetic? You've ranked Load above Hardwired to Self-Destruct?

Danica Roem

This is it. They're the two songs I mentioned earlier. "Bleeding Me" and "The Outlawed Torn" aren't just good songs on an otherwise mediocre album. They are so exceptional. They are my two favorite Metallica songs. And you're like, "What? Your favorite songs are from Load?" Like, surprisingly, yes. "Bleeding Me" and "Outlawed Torn" have like kind of rotated in my mind for 20 some odd years now about like which is like my favorite in that moment. And just as soon as like "Bleeding Me" start, the hair will start rising on my arms. And I remember seeing "The Outlaw Torn" live in Albany. The Pepsi Center in 2004 and it was just like it, that was almost like a dream come true to see that live. Playing needs a little bit more than eight minutes and the unencumbered by manufacturing restrictions. First of "Outlaw Torn" is pushed in 11 minutes. And the journey those songs take you on James's vocal melodies, Kirk's solos is so just entrancing, and it will just take you into another universe. And the funny thing is, and this is true with "Bleeding Me" especially because like I said before, I come from the underground, okay, like I talked to people, you know, and like my friends are people who are really into like, Napalm Death, grindcore bands in general and bands with names that I can't even say on air.

Michael Pope

It's podcast, you can say anything.

Danica Roem

Oh, I could but like, I also like being liked it. So, like, I like just say like, like, just think of the most aggressive bands you could possibly think of like, those are my friends. Okay? And then you say, hey, "Bleeding Me" they're like, "Ah, it's so good."

Thomas Bowman

At number four, you've got one of my, probably my second favorite Metallica album of all time, Kill 'Em All, it's it's how I discovered Metallica, by raiding the records in my parents basement. Yeah. So that's how I found that. So let's talk about number four, Kill 'Em All.

Danica Roem

Alright, so here's the, you could rank these top four in whatever order and it's completely defensible. So like there's like three tiers more or less like, St. Anger, Reload has that tier, then kind of the middle one. These four are, like this the quintessential Metallica, right? So my favorite song on Kill 'Em All is "No Remorse." It's so much thrash. And it's so good that even Cannibal Corpse covered it on the Gore Obsessed album. And I remember seeing Cannibal Corpse that Jackson, April 2002 the front row collapsed like 30 seconds into "Savage Butchery" and, like it was just like such an intense show. And meanwhile, like my friends that are all yelling, "No Remorse," because we wanted to hear the cover. But I'd be like, Kill 'Em All, is just, it's not the invention of thrash metal, but it kicked drived it. When they were going on to Kill 'Em All for one tour with Raven and like 83 the people showing up, you just didn't get this amount of aggression at metal shows at the time, like on a consistent basis. You just didn't see it and Metallica had tapped into something so special that even the drummer of, Paul from from Cannibal Corpse, he's like, you know, when he first heard Kill 'Em All, it was too heavy for him. He didn't get into the band until Ride the Lightning and his his like, you know, his tastes it evolved to love it by that point. But they, it was it was groundbreaking. And it's still timeless that I'm 38 years old now and is still time- and by the way, product of Central New York. I went to college in western New York. So fun fact.

Michael Pope

"Seek and Destroy" is one of the favorites.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, I was in a metal band in high school, quote unquote metal band in high school, that actually covered "Seek and Destroy" for a high school talent show or something like that. So I have I have a big affinity for that one. Let's talk about number three, Ride the Lightning, which has one of my favorite songs "For Whom the Bell Tolls."

Michael Pope

I wanted to introduce this segment with that awesome beginning "For Whom the Bell Tolls" with the bell and the guitarist come in, but I did like longer than 10 seconds. I didn't want Lars to come after me with the lawsuit. But yeah, Ride the Lightning.

Danica Roem

So my college band actually covered both "From The Bell Tolls" and "Creeping Death". And I'll tell you this, if S&M two got anything really done, right, it was "From The Bell Tolls," I thought "From The Bell Tolls," like that's been one is up and down. I think like a better of the two albums, but S&M two like "From The Bell Tolls" is really good. And like the xylophone is going crazy was just amazing. But this is an album where top to bottom, it's just you're now in the territory of Metallica albums where everything's perfect top to bottom. And in Ride the Lightning's case, I think that it was still a little less developed technically. Then you'll have you know, the top two albums here, but I also think that you had a sonic explosion when "Fight Fire With Fire" kicks in. This was elevating Metallica to like, okay, you have a fast thrash band that wrote "Whiplash" and "Metal Malitia" you know, where can they take this sound to and then "Fight Fire" kicks in after the soft intro where it's like it sounds like the the nuclear blast goes off. You know, and I think that intro was meant to be kind of like the DAISY Add, you know where you know, soft in the field and then boom. And from that moment on, that album is just like it just melts your face while at the same time, the first time Metallica ever got accused of selling out was for "Fade to Black" all the way back in 1984, was the first time they were told like "Oh, you guys went soft." It's like Jesus Christ. I was talking about suicide. And when I, when Jason Newsted's last ever performance with Metallica was, it was actually live on Beats One, and they played one song and it was it was voted on by the fans. And as Jason would say, appropriately, it was "Fade to Black." And so even though it was obviously Cliff Burton song, I think that song has an emotional resonance with Metallica fans, more so than any other song in their catalogue. Because it is so real and so incredibly crafted. The songwriting is just mind blowing and also, by the way, just one other song to highlight on their, their Grammy winner for the "Call of Cthulhu" which actually got the Grammy for the S&M. One version of it, you know, from '99 I think that that's a really special moment because that was the first time in a full songwriting context other than like not not because like "Anesthesia Pulling Teeth" from Kill 'Em All, and Cliff was very much like the Cliff Burton show. He really showed you like, what his songwriting can do musically that is so different from any other bass player at the time.

And then next on the list is one of the best albums ever made, Master of Puppets.

Oh, it's the best album ever made.

Michael Pope

"Damage Incorporated," Leper Messiah" I mean just really not a dull moment on this thing. Really amazing stuff.

Danica Roem

Oh, yeah, like this tops everyone's list for greatest metal albums of all time for a reason. You know, it just it is and my favorite happens to be different from their best, Master of Puppets is the best Metallica album period. It is my second favorite Metallica album but I will distinguish like, and I do this for a few other bands, like a Purse Portrait from Soil Work, his Soil Works best album, but my favorite is Natural Born Chaos for example, so that you know, this happens. But Master of Puppets, what else is there to say. They achieve perfection, the song "Master of Puppets" is the greatest heavy metal song of all time. And that is immediately followed by "Random Blood" by Slayer. You know, although Jose Manuel put "Walked by Pantera" second, but I'll put "Random Blood" second. And then you have the actual gem of Cliff Burton's career in "Orion". That was so profound as an instrumental. They actually played that at Cliff's funeral in 1986.

Michael Pope

All right, so we've got to wrap this up so that we don't like go on ridiculously long. But let's talk about one of the best albums ever made. Like you, I've just got a place in my heart for And Justice for All. What is it about this album that's just so amazing?

Danica Roem

This is my number one. This is absolutely number one. Um, I think with And Justice for All, when I was a kid, or teenager, and I saw the one video, and I think this is really universal. This is the second time Metallica was accused of selling out because they had used to say like, "Oh, we'll never do an MTV Music Video." Well, when the time was right, they did it for one. And I will still argue that is the greatest heavy metal video you'll ever see in your life. It's low key, low budget, they used a bunch of clips from "Johnny Got His Gun." And it will give you chills. It's impossible not to get goosebumps when you listen to the voice that says, you know, like when he's doing Morse code with his head. He's bouncing up and down. And he and the guy translates it and goes, "What's he saying?" Kill me over and over again. Kill me. It's like, even right now I'm saying it and the goosebumps are coming up on my arms right now as I'm talking. Just just thinking about it. That's what the thought of the video of that song is, let alone the fact that it has Kirk Cameron's greatest guitar solo ever, let alone that "Blackened" when you get to see that you know, open Metallica show or like in Fedexfield 2003 when they came back in for an encore with "Blackened" Oh my god "Blackened" is just it has all the technicality of "Damage Ink" and "Battery" and you know all the other classic thrashers, and then it takes it to the next level. The critique of this album of course, is that the bass was too low and this is why it will never be the best metal album ever because the production was not like that.

Michael Pope

Production value here is so disappointing. Because it's a such an amazing album and but it suffers from this horrible production value.

Danica Roem

That that is actually Lars' fault, more so than the mixer and the mixer will say that too. Like he will say that to the death, to this day. So it's like I don't blame...or anyone for it, but what I will say though is in terms of its songwriting, James Hetfield demonstrated himself, in my opinion, to be parallel to Tony Iommi with his guitar majesty and keep in mind, Kirk only records the leads, James puts down all of the rhythm, every layer of that rhythm. James' creative songwriting at that point, if you listen to "The Freedoms of Sanity", if you listen to and just the song "And Justice for All," and you're really piecing this together, you're going through this level of technicality of songwriting in the world of thrash that is unparalleled. You don't have progressive thrash like that, where you could have time signature changes and everything. Just such an intense level and then my favorite thrash song ever, "Dyers Eve," that you know, "Dear mother, Dear Father, what is this hell, you have put me through....Yeah, have you found this thing that they call a life? That's intense, and raw, and when you're in high school, and you hear that. And like, like, I've never, I'll never be someone who ever like, you know, like, says negative stuff about my mom. You know, my mom just she she went through hell to have to raise her kids after my dad killed himself in 1987. But hearing that, and the the dear father part on that, too, you know, and feeling that alienation, that was raw and that was real and that songwriting from James Hetfield, I thought, tapped into something that will always make him relatable in that he had a broken childhood that I you know, I could understand in that regard, and then when you get into "To lLve is to Die." Those lyrics, the very few lyrics are on there, the spoken word part from from Hetfield that was written by Cliff Burton and that's that's also really special because that was like the farewell from Cliff, "When a man lies, he murders some part of the world. These are the true deaths that which amendments called their lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home," that's off the top my head by the way, I don't have to open up my screen or anything.

Thomas Bowman

Well, you know, And Justice for All works as the theme for this entire episode. Based off the legislation we talked about earlier, and the ranking of your favorite Metallica albums, so please subscribe to Transition Virginia wherever pods are cast. You can follow the transition team on Twitter @TransitionVA and find us on the web at transitionvirginia.com. Don't forget to like and subscribe so you can enjoy our next episode of Transition Virginia.

Danica Roem

I knew Michael was a metal head the first time I saw him. He had the chain.

Thomas Bowman

The chain and the motorcycle boots that he walks around in.

Danica Roem

The aesthetic was there, the like, what I would call, metal head formal, it was there.