This week, Michael is joined by Senator Schuyler VanValkenburg, Delegate Joshua Cole, and Delegate Adele McClure to break down some of their proposed bills to address Virginia's ongoing housing crises: rising rents, increased homelessness, and Virginians getting priced out of home-buying across the state.

These bills include Delegate McClure's bill to allow single-staircase buildings--lowering staircase requirements to make development easier, Delegate Cole's bill on Faith in Housing--making it easier for faith-based organizations to build affordable housing on their property, and Senator VanValkenburg's bill to allowing housing in commercial zoning, encouraging mixed-use zoning. And, of course, the hot topic of localities eliminating single-unit zoning.

Episode Transcript

Michael Pope  

I'm Michael Pope. And this is Pod Virginia. The podcast coming live from the General Assembly Building. Shout out to Delegate Alfonso Lopez for opening up his conference room again. I'm joined by three members of the Virginia General Assembly who are going to be discussing housing bills, affordable housing, and making housing more affordable. We will start with a senator who is returning to the podcast for his third appearance on Pod Virginia. Former Delegate now Schuyler VanValkenburg . Thanks for coming back on the show.

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here.

Michael Pope  

We are also joined by a Delegate returning to the Hous. Delegate Joshua Cole. Thanks for joining us. 

Joshua Cole  

Thank you so much, Michael. I'm excited to be here. 

Michael Pope  

And one of our newest Delegates from Arlington. Delegate Adele McClure, thanks for joining us. 

Adele McClure  

Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Michael Pope  

This is exciting for me because it's the first time I've ever done a four-person live podcast. So, thank you, guys, for being my guinea pigs.

Adele McClure  

Oh, we are honored. 

Michael Pope  

Hopefully, I'm not going to screw this up too badly. So, I'm going to talk to you all in reverse seniority order. So I'm going to start with you, Delegate McClure. You have an interesting bill that is aimed at the kind of development that we see. And you're taking a look at staircases. And changing the requirement for what kind of stairwells are in a building, with the idea that you might be able to develop more properties and more kinds of properties. Maybe a footprint of a property that would never work. But if you change the staircase requirement, you suddenly get more development there. So what is this bill, and tell us a little bit about how it works.

Adele McClure  

It's known around the world. And now the United States has the single staircase issue. This actually happens all around the world. And there are some pretty outdated standards that require a building to be serviced by at least two staircases. Bringing it down to one that would allow for more multifamily units and different types of housing to be built in a new and more efficient way. Especially when it comes to land use and those more narrow lots. So you're not waiting forever for someone to buy out that entire block to build that housing. So it just creates more types of housing, and faster. So very excited to bring that forward. And I'm very excited to talk about it.

Michael Pope  

Delegate McClure, I would imagine that there's probably pushback on this for the same reason that this is part of the building code in the first place. It used to be that a building might have a fire escape on the back end of it. So, the stairwell in the building and a fire escape. At some point, people decided that wasn't safe enough. And so you needed a double staircase, the double-loaded corridor. So aren't you making these buildings less safe?

Adele McClure  

That is why we're not going straight into it. This bill actually convened an advisory stakeholder group to talk about this, explore all the different options, and come to the General Assembly with recommendations by the end of the year. So this doesn't go straight into it, but it is the first step toward trying to make sure that we're making better use of our land more efficiently.

Michael Pope  

So, explain how this might encourage development that might not happen otherwise. For example, oftentimes, what you see with these developments is a whole block. Because you can develop more easily if you've got access to the entire block. But what about if there is a plot of land that is part of a block or it's in the center of a block? Does this staircase requirement become a problem for those kinds of properties? Right?

Adele McClure  

Yeah, and a lot of times, there are folks in a holding pattern. And that land use just kind of goes unused for a while as opposed to just being built quickly, when you have the option to have a building multifamily residential building service by one single-stair exit. There are many different innovative ways to talk about safety. Our materials have gotten better over the years in terms of fire resistance. And there are a lot of people that have come to the table and talked about this. They just want the opportunity to bring all the stakeholders to the table, convene them, and then come up with some recommendations, hash it all out, and come back to the General Assembly by the end of the year. 

Michael Pope  

So, a little bit of process, the stakeholder group would advise the building code. Is that accurate? The Building Code Council or a group that does the building codes? 

Adele McClure  

Yeah, and so they would. They would all come back to, I believe, general laws on both sides of the chamber by December 1 of this year.

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Can I jump in there?

Michael Pope  

I was about to say this is this is an open forum, so everybody, please jump in. 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

I think Delegate McClure made a really important point when she talked about how, as time goes by, safety is different now than it was 20 years ago. We have safer materials, etc. And I think one of the things that stop housing from being built when we think about things is whether it's environmental regulations or safety regulations, it's some of the local zoning issues. I think one of the things that a lot of those regulations that prevent housing have in common is that they're regulations for a different time. For example, environmental policies from the 70s and 80s were necessary in the 70s and 80s. But it might be now getting in the way of things that would actually help the environment in 2024, such as more density and public transit, right? Which we know would have an effect on bringing down carbon, for example, right? Allowing people to live in denser areas. So I think a lot of the time about why the workgroup is a good thing, and I'm carrying it in the Senate. To this point, we know we can have safety with a single staircase, right? Because times have changed. Technology has changed.

Michael Pope  

Do we know that, though? Your colleague, Senator McPike, is a firefighter. And he has raised some concerns about this, hasn't he?

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Yeah, sure. And it looks like we want people to be vigilant. We do want people to be vigilant. We do want people to be considering these issues, which, once again, is why it starts as a workgroup and why we want to think through that process. But I mean, if you talk to fire departments, right, that service areas that are more newly built, more newly constructed, they have much fewer calls for fires. One of the reasons they have fewer calls for fires is because of the way that houses are constructed. With some of the newer technologies we have, there's just less of there's less fire, which is a great thing. That is a good thing. And so I think a lot of the stuff that gets in the way of building housing, for sure, had a purpose in its time. But we need to be thinking about how we can revise that and still be safe and still protect our environment. But to allow for housing because housing is one of the most vital needs people have. And we need to have affordable housing, and we need to have a housing supply.

Adele McClure  

Yeah. And, Michael, if I can jump in here. In addition to those points, just making sure that we're talking about the fact that we need to be more innovative. Because we have a housing crisis, we have a shortage. We need to be more innovative in the ways that we approach that and the vacancy issues that we have with regard to the amount of housing that is available. So this is one way to do that. And it's a very innovative way to begin that conversation.

Joshua Cole  

No, I think that was as good as a perfect segue into my bill that we're working on.

Michael Pope  

All right, well, I guess if we're gonna do a segue, Delegate Cole, you have a very interesting bill that, during the campaign, I moderated a rousing discussion with a bunch of candidates here in Richmond at the library. This bill came up; it was called Yes In God's Backyard, which I think now has been rebranded to Faith In Housing. It also talks about putting housing and affordable housing on properties that are currently zoned for religious institutions. As a journalist, I covered a situation in Arlington where there was a church that tried to do this. They demolished the church but then built a new church in a tower. The neighborhood hated the tower, and there was a lawsuit. There's always neighborhood opposition to the scale of these kinds of things. And then also, concerns about affordable housing, what kinds of people are going to live in affordable housing, right? So, talk about this bill and what you hope to accomplish with it. 

Joshua Cole  

Yeah, so I'm excited to partner with Delegate Betsy Carr, who is carrying the bill this year. As a pastor, I look at great historical measures like the Church of God in Christ and Bishop G. E. Patterson in Memphis, Tennessee, or even the Methodist, the United Methodist Church, how they have different housing units and affordable housing all throughout the area and throughout the country. And basically, what we wanted to do was say, Hey, you hear the play on words, not in my backyard. Still, you have a lot of churches, maybe they're larger churches, mega-churches with these huge parking lots that are not being fully utilized. Why don't we give them the ability to skip over all that red tape of going through rezoning and allow them to build affordable housing right where they are, like you gave an example, either they're building a new church or adding on. Give them the ability to do that. And I always talk about affordable housing. I like to look at the aspect of workforce housing. This is for people who are working in the area and who live in the area. You should be able to live in the same area where you live and come from Fredericksburg. We have a lot of commuters. They work in Washington, DC, and live in Fredericksburg because they can afford to go up the road, get that money, and bring it back down here. Still, they can't necessarily afford to live in Washington, DC. And so this is getting my shout-out to Michael Ecumenical Ministries in the city of Fredericksburg, who initially brought this idea to me back in 2021. And we want to make sure that these ministries are able to do ministry besides just preaching on Sundays and doing soup kitchens during the week. Suppose they can build houses to support people in the community. In that case, I think that's a great advantage. And we should be able to do that. 

Michael Pope  

Where I live in Alexandria, there are lots of examples of this. There was one church on the West End that basically ceased to exist and closed as a church. They sold their property to a nonprofit developer, and they built affordable housing. Then, there was a totally separate project with an Episcopal church where they rebuilt the property; the Episcopal Church is still there. But now there's affordable housing on the property. So it's not like this doesn't happen, right? So, explain what the need for this legislation is because this is already going on all over Virginia.

Joshua Cole  

I think what's key is making sure that we can do this throughout various different communities. When I was having conversations, say, with builders or people in the community who wanted to do affordable housing, one of the major things we heard was a lot of red tape. A lot of the red zoning process takes too long, and that causes the cost to go up. So if we're able to get that middleman out of the way to remove some of that red tape and just say, Hey, we've already done it on the state level, you don't have to go through these processes all over again, or extend those processes. They'll be able to go through and get those things built in an affordable measure.

Michael Pope  

You say removing the middleman, but I'm sure you are probably hearing from City Council members and Boards of Supervisors who say, Hey, I'm the middleman, like you're cutting out your local governments here. Right?

Joshua Cole  

Yeah. And I think what's key is not so much removing the local governments. However, they will still be able to regulate, and they'll still be making sure that things are done safely and cautiously. But we just want to make sure that the whole red tape aspect and the timeframe it takes to do rezoning is taken out. So, a lot of those building costs aren't going out the roof.

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Yeah, I think the beauty of the bill is that it goes back to the historic mission of so many different religious groups. Pre-America, right? I mean, the idea of the church's role, and I mean church broadly across multiple different types of faiths, and giving them the opportunity to be able to do this if they can. Which they should be able to do that's in so many religious missions. And I think just to piggyback on Delegate Coles's point. Some localities do allow this to happen, but some don't. And this is, I think, a really good example of one of the many fixes that will lead to better housing results across the Commonwealth and make sure that we have enough housing for everybody. There's no silver bullet on this issue. It's really going to be dozens of policies that are going to help us make sure that we can continue to house people in an affordable way near where they work and where their kids go to school. And this is, I think, a good one. 

Michael Pope  

Delegate McClure, I think this Clarendon example that I talked about is in your district, right? 

Adele McClure  

It is.

Michael Pope  

There was lots of opposition and a lawsuit. Still, the religious organization was successful because they've got they've got affordable housing now.

Adele McClure  

Yep. So that's what I was gonna bring up is that there are many different examples of religious institutions and buildings where they had a lot of red tape that they were facing and trying to go through. And so they were facing closing down their doors and selling that and going elsewhere because they couldn't afford to keep not being at capacity and not being able to develop that building and have mixed-use, like childcare and affordable housing on that property. And so I think that this would bring down a lot of that red tape to make sure that we have that still in the community. 

Michael Pope  

Then, we move onto Senator VanValkenburg's bill that would allow housing over, let's say, a Giant grocery store that has a surface area parking lot or a strip mall. Your bill would allow housing on top of that; how does that work? 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

So, our bill is still being kind of shaped and molded into what the final product will be, but the bottom line is that it will allow housing to be built in commercial zoning. This has been done in blue states like California, it's been done in red states like Montana, and it's one of the big policies that we can implement at a local or state level.

Michael Pope  

Just want to understand this. Currently, the way zoning works is either residential or commercial. Your suggestion would blow that up, right?

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

It would allow for housing and commercial. Yeah. So you can think of your mixed mixed-use, you can think of strip malls where you have businesses on the first level, and you have apartments and condos built up. You can think about areas where you have businesses mixed with townhomes. You know, it can be seen In single-family homes, too, for that matter. 

Michael Pope  

It would bring mixed-use development to every commercial property as a possibility. 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Yeah. 

Michael Pope  

To every commercial property in Virginia?

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Theoretically.

Michael Pope  

Theoretically, you still need to get your local zoning board and all the stuff.

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

It would still be a process; it would still have to be a place where people would want to live, and developers really want to develop. But look, Northern Virginia has had housing problems for a long time. It's increasingly coming to the Central Virginia region housing. People are being priced out of housing in the Richmond area, you know, teachers, cops, firefighters, public servants, the critical workers who work in grocery stores or wherever. We are increasingly not being able to afford housing in the region, and we're seeing rents skyrocket. And, a lot of the problem is supply; we don't have enough supply. And one of the ways that you can build supply is density and doing it alone in commercial corridors. And you know, I will give Henrico County a ton of credit. Henrico County is doing a great job of this. You can see projects across across our county, whether you're talking at Regency Mall, or you're talking about the Innsbrook Project that's about to start, or you're talking about Living Mill, West Broad Village, where you're seeing townhomes, you're seeing apartments and condos being mixed with business. And it's really one of those things that's incredibly necessary. Because if we don't build it, we are going to have to, we're gonna see people increasingly have to move farther and farther out, have a harder time getting to work, have a harder time paying the bills. And this is a policy that will help ensure that we can keep up with supply. Because it's simple laws of supply and demand. People want to live here. And if we don't have the housing for it, the cost is going to skyrocket.

Michael Pope  

Is there a bit of a sliding scale with how many stories are allowed on top of a property based on the jurisdiction? So, like in Richmond, you might get 11 stories, but then, if you talk about Bedford, it would be a different story. 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Correct. Yeah. 

Michael Pope  

How does that work? 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

And the bills are silent on that. Okay, so the bill doesn't really speak to that. But yeah, I think when you think about what residential area should be in a commercial zone, it's going to depend on what that commercial spot is, right? Is it a strip mall area along the major road? Is it a bigger site where you can have blocks upon blocks of residential and commercial? It's really going to depend, so there's going to be a ton of different types of projects. But we can solve this problem on the front end. Or we can solve it on the back end when the problem is already dire. When businesses are leaving, homelessness is rising, people are leaving the state, they're being priced out. And I think we should fix it on the front end. And so this is going to be a bill that's going to give localities options when the final bill is drafted so that they can go about it their own way. But it's gonna say like, Look, if you're not showing progress at trying to do this, there's going to be a state version, where you're going to have to allow it because we need housing. It's really just that simple. I mean, it really is just that simple. I mean, the cost is becoming prohibitive. If you're a teacher in Henrico. County, we're about at that point where you're not going to be able to buy a house in Henrico County. And I think that's not a place that we want to be in. And I think that's a place that some parts of Northern Virginia already are in. And that's not good. That's not good for your community.

Adele McClure  

I'm constantly getting priced out of my own district. I told someone that since I left college, I've moved a total of seven times, seven times. And that was because my rent continued to increase, and I had to go to the next place to get a better deal. And that was in multiple different places within Northern Virginia, mostly Arlington. I actually recently just moved in November within the same district and got priced out of where I was currently living.

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

And there was a really good Axios article on this last week that showed what the average age was when the average Virginian bought their first house. Right now, the average age of a first-time homebuyer in Virginia is 37 years old. A decade ago, it was 30. That's insane to me, at the age of 37. I have three kids. I've been a teacher for 13 years and 14 years. And that's when people are finally getting the capital and salary to be able to buy a house in Virginia, and that's a troubling trend. That's a very troubling trend.

Michael Pope  

So, obviously, I think everybody on this panel would agree with the need to be creative, and you all have bills that attempt to be creative. But what you're talking about does seem like it's kind of extreme to blow up commercial zoning. There's been all this discussion about ending single-family zoning; your bill would kind of end commercial zoning, wouldn't it? 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

It's really not that extreme. 

Michael Pope  

It's my job to make things sound extreme. 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

It's really not, I mean. It's something that you're seeing all across the country; it's things that you're seeing in the localities that are trying to keep up with supply. And it's a thing that people like, quite frankly. I think when you look at a lot.

Michael Pope  

Stuff on top of stuff.

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

When you're looking at a lot of younger homebuyers and home renters in this area. A lot of them like those mixed-use developments. Living Mill in Henrico County is thriving in West Broad Village in Henrico. The county is thriving.

Michael Pope  

But mixed-use development already exists, and those kinds of developments are already going on right now, so why is your legislation necessary? 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

Some places, some places. This goes back to the same thing with the last question in some places, but we actually need it in most places if we're going to keep up with supply. There are only so many places that you can build homes in areas that are zoned residential if they're already built if it's already built out. If, for example, you drive out in western Henrico County, where it's residential zoned, it's all built out. So if you're going to add supply in that area, it's going to have to be redeveloped, which is going to be a lot of mixed-use stuff.

Joshua Cole  

No, I mean, I agree. We've heard the ADU argument. We've heard different arguments. But I think what's going to be key as we're moving forward is we do need to be creative. We have to make sure that housing is being brought to the area. And we can talk about mixed-use. I used to live in Lynchburg. And living in Lynchburg. I lived in this apartment complex; I'm gone now. But when I go back to visit, it's an apartment complex, it's restaurants, it's drugstores. It's gas stations, and they have apartments on top of some of these these stores.

Michael Pope  

And you didn't need Senator VanValkenburg's legislation to make that happen. This is the point I was trying to make. These developments are already going on, right?

Joshua Cole  

But not everywhere. And I think that's what the key aspect is: we're dealing real estate, so we got to chip away at some of these things. But what's also key is, as he said, we, especially as millennials, enjoy convenience. If I don't have to get out of my neighborhood to go to the store or if I don't have to leave my neighborhood to go buy a pair of pants, it is the convenience of being right there. Oops, I have an apartment right on top of the mall. I don't have to drive, you know, to go down to Hot Topic or to go down to H&M. I can go right downstairs. Some people have issues with that. 

It's great for business. 

Yeah, right. Yeah. 

Adele McClure  

So folks literally living there and frequenting those businesses. I mean, you're within walking distance. Especially living where I live in the Crystal City area, you can walk to anything, and you're more likely to purchase the stuff around you.

Joshua Cole  

And from an environmental standpoint, it's going to be better; you're getting kind of rid of a lot of those emissions from driving here to there. You can walk. We always talk about 15-minute cities or 10-minute cities. We want to be able to walk or create pedestrian zones for people to walk to where they're going. This is really going to help it out.

Michael Pope  

Do you have a Hot Topic in your district? I mean, I feel like Virginia needs more Hot Topics. We need them as a sponsor on the podcast. All right, as a last topic, I want to open up a can of worms here. Everybody braces themselves for single-family zoning. Arlington did away with single-family zoning where I live in Alexandria, did away with the single-family zoning. Charlottesville has done this. This clearly seems like a movement, and more local governments and cities would be jumping on the bandwagon here. Jump in for anyone who wants to talk about this. Is this a good trend? Or is it worrisome? What do you think about these local governments deciding that they want to get rid of single-family zoning?

Adele McClure  

I think it's a good trend. And I also think it's good practice for these localities to be able to talk about it within their own respective communities. Obviously, when it comes to the nitty-gritty and the details, talking about what's great for that particular locality and allowing them to have that discussion. But as you know, this particular single-family zoning is rooted in racism. That is why my family and I have been historically shut out from owning a home. I had never lived in a home; I lived in apartments and was a renter all my life. And that is not by choice. That's by design. And so when we kind of move toward or move away. And folks don't realize the history and forget the history because, one, we're not learning it within our schools. They forget, and they're not aware that a lot of this was put in by designers to keep us shut out from it. And they were very successful in that. And so we want to make sure that we're taking a lot of these types of laws off the books and allowing folks to have these deep conversations and recognize within the localities.

Michael Pope  

When I wrote about the racist origin of zoning law in my local newspaper, I got a lot of pushback from people who said, Well, yeah, Black people live in single-family zoning housing, too, right.

Adele McClure  

I think the data will show there's a disproportionate number of Black folks who own homes compared to their white counterparts.

Joshua Cole  

Absolutely. And I think this was a major issue that we discussed in the city of Fredericksburg. This past election cycle was a big thing. And understanding the history, I'm still kind of torn because I know that there is an appetite in the region for removing it. But also, there are, of course, the people who are still trying to protect their area. But I think it's something that we definitely have to consider; we definitely have to take a stronger look into it. Because, as it's been stated numerous times, people are being priced out, there needs to be better options, and we need to have affordable homes in the area. And I can't even tell you how expensive it's getting in Fredericksburg, and also how I think, if I'm not mistaken, Fredericksburg region has one of the highest eviction rates in the entire state. So we need to plan differently. And we need to find other ways to make sure that people have a roof over their heads. 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

I think that issue depends on your locality in some ways. And I think in Arlington and Alexandria, where this issue has really been kind of top of mind in the last couple of years, I think it might make more sense than it doesn't in some others. One reason why I like the commercial zoning bill is I think that it kind of creates many problems at once. In the sense that you are building that housing, it is near these neighborhoods; you're creating density, but you're building it in a way where people can see it without. There is a lot of nimbyism around the right. There are a lot of people who bought that house because they liked that neighborhood as it is. And I get that; I mean, there are origins to it. But there's also the reality of it now, too. And so the thing that I think that is really good about commercial zoning multi-use is that it helps build a kind of coalition of people that support that density, that support more housing in the community that can lead to those conversations. And so I think that issue really does depend on the local area and the needs of the local area. And I think it's at the state level. I think it's much more important that we focus on building up that supply. Particularly where we know we can build it, we can build it with density, and we can get a lot of units. And to me, that's that's why I put in this bill, in particular. 

Michael Pope  

One last question around the horn, and then we will close out the podcast. I'm curious about other creative ideas. So, on our podcast, we've talked about religious institutions. These properties are owned and zoned for religious institutions, stairwells, and building codes. We talked about putting stuff on top of stuff, which, by the way, is a phrase I stole from the Alexandria housing director when they put housing on top of the fire department. She talked about putting stuff on top of stuff, but that's essentially what you're talking about. Are these are creative ideas. Obviously, there's a housing crunch here, and there's a huge need to do something; what are some other creative ideas that the Virginia General Assembly or local governments should be thinking about? 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

We didn't really talk much about affordable housing, per se. And I think the one point I'll make as we go around the circle is that we never really, in a big way, put money behind the Housing Trust Fund and try to do affordable housing. We finally started to do that in 2020 and 2021. 

Michael Pope  

Shout out to Delegate Alfonso Lopez, whose office we're using. Although we couldn't get the light switches to work. It is a little dim in here. 

Schuyler VanValkenburg  

No, that's right. And so I think we really, that's another piece of this puzzle, that's really important, that we need to be conscious of, and that we need to focus on and prioritize. I think it is really important at the state level. And so I'm hopeful that, in this next year or two, and hopefully pass that, we continue to prioritize that because we need supply, but we also need affordability.

Michael Pope  

Delegate Joshua Cole's other ideas are creative ideas that either the General Assembly or your local government might implement. 

Joshua Cole  

I'm sitting here with some of these great, bright minds. And I am not a housing policy genius. But I am excited about some of the legislation that's going to be coming out this session. We've had the conversation about ADU, we've had conversations about tiny homes and our communities, and we're just making sure that many of those are accessible and that localities are allowing them to be utilized in their communities. 

Michael Pope  

So, the Accessory Dwelling Unit is a tool that local governments are using. Do you see any need for legislation there in terms of making them more accessible or maybe removing some of the middlemen there?

Joshua Cole  

Yeah, I think that's another discussion we can have. I believe back in 2020, there was a bill to allow accessory dwelling units throughout the entire state. Overall, it did not pass, but I think that's something to come back to the table and discuss and have a conversation over.

Michael Pope  

Explain how that would work and why that would increase the stock of housing. 

Joshua Cole  

So it allows, I believe, dealing with tiny homes or in the backyard, say, if you have a single-family home and they have a large garage. That garage can be converted into a tiny home, or even a small apartment, to be utilized to rent or to sell as well.

Michael Pope  

Delegate Adele McClue, tell us about creative ideas that people, the state government, or local governments might implement to increase the stock of housing?

Adele McClure  

So I was actually going to mention what the Senator mentioned and make sure that we're significantly funding the Housing Trust Fund. It's been significantly underfunded for many years; I actually worked at the Virginia Department of Housing and Urban Development. And I know that a portion of that fund, 20% of that fund, goes to homelessness reduction. So I think we definitely need to, in addition to being creative on the supply side, make sure that we're making housing more affordable. Housing affordability is extremely important to make sure that we're not losing our residents that make Virginia, Virginia. So I'm really, really passionate about that. And then also on expanding more funds to help folks who are experiencing and facing eviction, especially post-pandemic when a lot of those federal funds are no longer available to us.

Michael Pope  

All right. Delegate Alfonso Lopez was sticking his head in the window, but he walked away. So I was gonna ask him to come in and say something, but he's not. He's no longer here. All right. You have been listening to a special in-person episode of Pod Virginia with four real live people, all in the same room at the same time.