State Senator John Bell of Loudon County joins Thomas and Michael to discuss the complex topic of casinos--Virginia is set to develop its fifth casino in the state, but the details are still up in the air. Richmond voters rejected the casino, but Petersburg may want it. Senator Bell explains the economic and social thinking behind the state's casino legislation as well as his pragmatic approach to the question of state-regulated gambling.

Episode Transcript

Michael Pope 

On this episode of Pod Virginia.

Thomas Bowman 

How many casinos does Virginia need?

John Bell 

Do we give Petersburg a chance to hold a referendum on this and build a project there? Or do we get Richmond another shot?

Michael Pope 

Four have already opened or will open soon.

John Bell 

Too soon is something we should be concerned about.

Thomas Bowman 

Now the General Assembly is debating where to put a fifth. I'm willing to support a referendum in Petersburg; if you're listening to Pod Virginia, stick around.

Michael Pope 

I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman 

I'm Tom Bowman.

Michael Pope 

And this is Pod Virginia, a podcast that's playing the odds by talking about casinos. To help us understand this debate and its significance. We're joined by a member of the Senate panel that's looking at this issue. Senator John Bell of Loudoun County, thanks for joining us.

John Bell 

Great to be here, and it's a subject we've spent a lot of time on over the last two years. And one that I find quite interesting and glad to discuss, and thanks for the invite.

Michael Pope 

I saw you and that subcommittee meeting wrestling with all of these issues. I mean, do you want a fifth Casino? Maybe four is enough. And then, should it be in Petersburg? Or should it be in Richmond, and then you get into things like the specific unions that are at issue here and the conflicts they might have with each other. Let's start with the bigger picture here. Does Virginia really need a fifth Casino? There are lots of people. There are lots of our listeners who think this takes advantage of poor people. Does Virginia really need casinos at all in general or a fifth in particular?

John Bell 

I'll answer it two ways. First, I'm going to tell you that I'm a pragmatist. I believe gambling is happening here illegally at the moment. That gambling is happening with no regulation to make sure it's fair. And it's also happening without getting any revenue for the Commonwealth to use for many good things or help legitimate businesses. People are going to other states like West Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, and Tennessee, and they're gambling there. And we're not getting any jobs or any revenue from that. So I'm more of a pragmatist that we can do things that will help Virginia by having casinos. Now the question is, how many? Is four enough? Should we have five? It's something I've thought about quite a bit. I'm gonna give you a couple of stats. Maryland has 6 million people. We have 8.4 million in Virginia, and they have six casinos. We've got four, with a fifth being determined. Indiana, 6.8 million people, ten casinos; Arizona, 7.4 million people, and get ready for these 34 casinos; I don't want 34; let me just say that right now. Illinois, and I think this is probably one of the better comparisons; all of Illinois has 25 casinos and 12 million people. You take out Chicago, which is 4 million people, and the Illinois population is almost identical to Virginia's, a little over 8 million; they have 16 casinos in the rest of Illinois. So if we look at four or five, we're still really on the low end compared to other states population-wise. I do think though, if we look at gambling as a whole, we should look at historical horse racing, actual live horse racing. And then, frankly, the one we've been dealing with, with Gray Machines or games of scale or games of chance. And I think it's all part of a bigger, massive growth in gambling in Virginia. I personally feel like most of us go to different sectors, not all the same. But as far as casinos go. I don't think that we're at a point where we can say we have too many. It's at a point where we're near others with a similar population, and five would still be on the low end. I'm not really ready to go above that. But I think that is a good place for us to be right now.

Thomas Bowman 

So explain the role the General Assembly is playing in this debate. It's already authorized five casinos. What's left for it to determine?

John Bell 

We authorize five, four localities voted and approved. The City of Richmond voted, and the referendum was defeated. So Richmond voted and spoke that saying they didn't want the Casino. Over that time. Senator Joe Morrissey and people from Petersburg have said, hey, we'd like to have that Casino. Petersburg has been economically depressed. They've lost the industries of yesteryear, and they're trying to rebuild the city. I'm sympathetic to that. Frankly, they want to have something now from my beginning look at Petersburg. And trying to look, the best research from around the country is if you just build a casino that's a gambling Hall and nothing else, I think it would fail. It would survive for a little while and would create a certain amount of jobs. But frankly, over time, some of them are proved to be kind of dumpy, not great. Suppose I look at the riverboat casinos that have opened up many places that have to be on the water. A lot of them are dumps; in my opinion, they're not very nice. So it has to be a place that offers accommodations, mix-living, entertainment, restaurants, shows, and other things that bring people in other than just gambling. And I believe the Petersburg project meets all those things. It's a $1.4 billion project. It's a massive development. Frankly, it is a game changer for that area. The biggest Virginia casino is the Norfolk casino, and it's a $650 million project. This is massively bigger than the others. Because I think we have to answer, you're logical question. And I mean, no disrespect to Petersburg when I say this, but why are people going to go to Petersburg? You've got to give them a reason to go there. It's not on the National Harbor; it's not in a premier location. I think you've got to have a really spectacular product. That's multifaceted to bring people there. And I think that's one of the things they offered with this proposal.

Michael Pope 

Before we move on from why have a fifth casino, or in a broader sense, why have casinos at all? You just mentioned in your answer to that. Well, if we take a look at that, we also have to take a look at historical horse racing and Gray Machines. One of the speakers in that subcommittee meeting we used her audio on the podcast last week was Belinda Baugh, who's a pastor in Petersburg. Said, look, if you go to any of these places where they've got the Gray Machines and historical horse racing. People are sitting there just plunging their money into these things; those are the same people that are going to show up at the church for help. And they're going to show up at the nonprofits for help. And this harms them. What do you what would you say to Belinda Baugh and those concerns?

John Bell 

Well, I would say it's unfortunate people have a problem with addiction. I chair the Substance Abuse Council of Virginia, which we're getting ready to change its name to Addiction Recovery. And we've actually looked at gambling addiction quite a bit. Frankly, one of the reasons why I don't like school games is right now. They're pretty much completely unregulated. There are no protections to keep children from playing them. And they've even put them in places like historical Black colleges and universities, where minors had open access to them. I think it's really dangerous. Right now, none of that money is going towards the Commonwealth or gambling, treatment, or prevention, none of it. If we have legitimate casinos, again, back to my pragmatic point of view, gambling is happening, whether it's legal or not. But when it's happening illegally, or in school games, because of the pending court case, then what's going on with it means none of the money's coming to help people with addictions. There's no messaging to try to fight addiction. And because there's no regulation, some of these games may not be on the up, and up may not be fair. So I think by having, you know, a heavily regulated gambling industry in Virginia. Then we can let people know if they choose to use these places to gamble to play a game of chance. They know at least that game is fair, and they know the transparency of where the money is going.

Thomas Bowman 

All right, one of the localities that are already rejected having a casino is Richmond. Full disclosure Senator, I was one of those no voters. Richmond's already said no. What's your position on holding a second referendum in Richmond on casino legalization here?

John Bell 

Well, I believe that the voters have spoken in Richmond. I walked into the committee the other day, and in my opinion, the people in favor of trying to get a second referendum for Richmond would have to convince the committee and me why they would deserve a second referendum. What went wrong? What was the big reason? I asked the question of one of the council members, and I didn't get a good answer to that, in my opinion. It didn't compel me. Did they message it wrong? Was it sold as the wrong kind of project? What I got is the fact that the bottom line is they didn't like that the voters rejected it. And they do see advantages to it. I'm not convinced the voters would approve it. You know, we can look at any elections that happen. And there's many like, you know, Governor Youngkin's election when he won the election over Governor McAuliffe, and it was pretty close. Okay, we don't like the results. Let's go do it again. The bottom line is that the voters spoke; they rejected it. And I think that speaks clearly, a couple of other things that came out of the committee. The Petersburg group showed a map; they gave us brochures. The map is a very nice map to show what this project would be. They showed us what the vision was, but no one from Richmond showed a map or anything of what the project would be. So again, and I would have thought they would have shown, well, hey, this is what we were voting on before and how we present it, this is what we're gonna vote on, now these are the differences of perhaps why wasn't communicated correctly, none of that came up. And frankly, when it was up before the amount of money spent for the casinos versus anti, it was dramatically in favor of more money spent to have casinos. It was more than 10 to one, I believe. I just didn't feel like they made a case that was compelling to me why Richmond should get another shot. A fair question, I think, is why Petersburg versus other localities around Virginia?

Michael Pope 

Well, let's get into that fair question. You said earlier in order to do this in Petersburg; you would really have to give people a reason to go to Petersburg. So you mentioned these maps. The committee members were presented with this glossy, large book that I've got here in your office that we're going through, that has all kinds of architectural artists' renderings of what it would look like and even kind of zoning maps of what kind of properties would be in certain places. And this is pretty slick. This looks like Maryland Live. I mean, it's the same company that's it's that's the corporation that's doing this. And you mentioned earlier that you don't want this to be dumpy, and this doesn't look dumpy, right? What's your take on what's being planned here? What's being talked about for Petersburg? Is this a reason to get people a reason to go to Petersburg?

John Bell 

In my opinion, it is. This is exactly the kind of product that would be needed to get people to go there. First, it's got, you know, long-term type housing there. So that makes a certain amount of residence, it got a grocery store, it's got restaurants, it's got entertainment. So people go there for a nice meal and entertainment, a show, not necessarily to gamble. So there are multiple reasons why someone would want to go here, plus a beautiful hotel, a huge resort pool, and a number of things I think would draw more than just a gambling Hall. And I think it meets the requirement. You mentioned Maryland Live the Inner Harbor; I've seen a few Cordish projects. I will say my hometown of Louisville, Kentucky, where I was born and raised. They've tried to revitalize their downtown a number of times, like four different projects. And the only one that has worked is the Cordish project Fourth Street Live; every other one failed. I believe they have selected a partner with a proven track record of doing this. And again, the next biggest casino project already under construction is $650 million. This is substantially bigger than that. And it's giving people a reason to go there.

Thomas Bowman 

I will hold off until we do so that siren goes away. Alright, it's gone. So usually, in order for casino towns to succeed, they are already gonna have to have significant tourist activity there. I think of Atlantic City, which just started plopping casinos down in a residential area on the beach and destroyed Atlantic City. What evidence is there to support the claim that a casino is actually going to help Petersburg's economy?

John Bell 

Yeah, I mean, I think the fair answer to this is there are projects that go good and go bad. Just because you build a casino doesn't mean it's gonna automatically be great for a locality. You got to do it right. And right, to me, it means it's got to be much more than a casino. In Atlantic City, I think they went wrong because they were overbuilt and they didn't differentiate. Places that have done this well, Beau Rivage in Gulfport, Mississippi, is a beautiful property. It's got nice restaurants, entertainment, and a beautiful hotel, and it's much more than gambling. It's successful. Some of the smaller facilities are just gambling, just a gambling Hall, not so much. It really depends on how they are differentiated. If you look at some of the Indian properties in New England, some of those are vastly successful. They're really, but they're much more than just gambling; they have a really full spectrum of entertainment. I think that's one of the key things that has to be done. What will it do for Petersburg? Well, first off, I went to a convention in Las Vegas many years ago, and they said every hotel room equals about 12 jobs if it's more than just a hotel. And this is so if you look at the long-term jobs, the construction jobs, it's going to be a huge shock to that economy and the people coming through. But beyond that, currently, and I asked Petersburg this question at the committee hearing, do you have enough people in fire Police Emergency Services, all the infrastructure that you're going to need to do this? The answer is no. But the good news is they're gonna have plenty of time to get that, so the Is there gonna be other jobs that are going to be created, but they've got a lot of work at hand to make this, right? Because they really need to have that infrastructure in play day one because, at any moment, that town's gonna more than double its population with people who go to this facility if it works out the way it's planned to work out. But I think it's a key point you have to select the partner you do business with. And you've really got to make sure that it's more than just gambling because I think that's the elixir that people have taken. And they've realized that it didn't turn out to be true.

Michael Pope 

So you say you got to select the right partner, one of the things complicated in this discussion is the sub context here of specific unions working with specific projects. So you got the Seafarers in Petersburg, and then Unite Here in Richmond. And so this is also kind of a proxy battle among these unions, isn't it?

John Bell 

It certainly turned out that way at the committee hearing and in the number of different union reps that have lobbied me over the last two weeks. I was turned off by the whole thing, and I shared that with them. I think that you know, we need to make sure that workers have a fair deal. And if we're choosing to do business with someone and give them this opportunity, that they do the right things, but I think we're putting the cart before the horse right now to select who a union should be, or if this union should even be there. Ultimately, that's up to the workers at that facility. And I think it was mainly a distraction issue. The issue at hand was, do we get Petersburg a chance to do a referendum on this and build a project there? Or do we give Richmond another shot? Or do we do one in each? The JLARC study said the Commonwealth of Virginia gets more money if we do two. But we have to realize if we did, two, I think, be possibly building too much too soon in that area. And even the answer from the Cordish CEO was would they wouldn't do a $1.4 billion project if we did two.

Michael Pope 

Also, that same JLARC report said if you added two, they would both make money, but neither of them would make as much money as you didn't have the other one. I mean, like that was there was a nuanced answer on that from JLARC.

Unknown Speaker 

Absolutely, they would cannibalize each other. I mean, and I also think if I go back to what I said before about historical horse racing, Gray Machines. And that's what I'm talking about charitable, bingo, Texas Hold'em. There is, I think, going to be a point where we are maxed out with how many gambling operations we have. Casino wise was much lower than in other states of similar size. But I think too much, too soon, is something we should be concerned about. And I think one or the other is the way to go, not doing both projects. And I would prefer again, looking at the track record of what has succeeded around the country, you know, the Foxwoods Indian Casino I mention in New England, or Beau Rivage projects that have done well; they've been more like the Cordish project, which is really a massive entertainment, multifaceted project, not just gambling.

Thomas Bowman 

Senator Bell, you just brought up revenue, so I'm wondering what steps is the General Assembly considering are taking to ensure that the revenue generated from those casinos or from these casinos are going to benefit not just the state but also the local communities and counteract some of the social harm that we can already predict will happen from that? Well,

Unknown Speaker 

There's a revenue split in the deal with the casinos here. Some of it goes to the locality. Some of it goes to the Commonwealth. And there's also a percentage of the revenue that would go for gambling in addiction treatment. So there's, there's the way the revenue split that's put in there. I think I should mention there's a study bill that Senator Bryce Reeves did, which I support we need to do; I think we need to create our own Gambling Commission. The JLARC report talked about how this would grow gambling in Virginia by 2025 to over $20 billion industry. If we compare that to other industries, it's now going to be one of the biggest industries in Virginia. So I believe we need a gambling, Secretary level position. And I think we need a Gambling Commissioners Czar. I think we probably have to go outside of Virginia to hire talent from other states, and we have multifaceted experience. Right now, we've got Charitable Gaming in the Department of Agricultural consumer services, which is kind of strange, in my opinion. And then we've got in Charitable Gaming is about a $3 billion a year industry. That's no small industry. We've had lots of cheating and fraud there. And then we take everything else that's under the lottery. But I believe we were really going above the skill levels in the lottery, and I think we need to put it all under one roof. And to address really the long-term future of this, we need to have a gambling secretary-level position given the statute of the revenue there. Other things that, frankly, we haven't worked out that I think need to be worked out. What are the qualifications for someone who's a dealer at a table in a casino? What background checks are standard, and what qualifications do they have to have? What is the standard,

Michael Pope 

But you don't have to reinvent the wheel, and you've already got four other casinos here that already have rules about all that, right?

Unknown Speaker 

They have their own internal, but we don't have Commonwealth-wide rules. I agree we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There are plenty of people who have done this around the country. But I do think we need a standard too, you know, show that somebody who's dealing with potentially, something's very liquid. We also know that gambling operations are places where people launder money. So we need to have protections that would come with this. And, I think we were entering this, like it or not, in a big way, and in a few years, it is going to be a gigantic industry in Virginia, and we need to prepare for now.

Thomas Bowman 

Okay, Senator, what do you think is the most likely scenario for this legislation in Virginia moving forward?

Michael Pope 

And I'll piggyback on Thomas's question, which is what I hear you say it is to forget about Richmond; Petersburg might have an argument, but you're not fully sold on allowing them to have a referendum.

Unknown Speaker 

Right now, I'm willing to support a referendum in Petersburg, you know, because I think they've, they've offered the better case for the Commonwealth. I mean, to be honest, my district isn't the people who I serve or are probably not going to use either when there are facilities very much because you're quite away from where I live. But I'm trying to look at what's what I think would be best for the Commonwealth and best for the people in an area. And I believe that, again, they've offered a more compelling opportunity that I believe has a higher chance of success for the Petersburg opportunity. Where it's gonna go now, it's gonna end up going to Senate Finance, and I think it's gonna be a close vote. Because if you look at the JLARC study, it does show that there are other casinos that are already under construction and historical horse racing facilities that are going to potentially lose revenue from a new mega Casino. And people representing those districts are going to be impacted by it. It's a tough decision. In my opinion, the best case that would do the best would be the Petersburg project. I haven't surveyed people in Petersburg; I've talked to quite a few. I've heard a few.

Michael Pope 

I'm sure they're calling you.

John Bell 

They are calling, and many more. I'd say I get nine in favor for everyone against. So it's going to be interesting to see how this goes on the referendum. But from what I've seen, I think a referendum there would pass. And I haven't seen, frankly, any evidence to suggest that a referendum in Richmond would pass if it came up again.

Thomas Bowman 

Well, and of course, before it even gets that far, it's got to get through the House of Delegates, and who knows what's gonna happen over there.

Unknown Speaker 

Good point. I mean, with Delegate Taylor carrying the House version of that bill, tough district, I would think they would love to get her to win. So I would think they're gonna do everything we can. But I know many people are not in favor of gambling, just on principle. And that's always gonna be an issue at play. But I think they picked a good patron for the bill that people would likely want to support.

Michael Pope 

All right, this has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you for joining us, Senator John Bell of Loudoun. Thank you so much.

John Bell 

Thank you. I really appreciate it. And thanks for highlighting this issue because I think it's an important one for Virginia.