FLASHBACK: Thomas and Michael take a look back at the 1998 standoff in the Virginia House of Delegates to elect a new Speaker--involving shouted objections, day-long voice votes, and the occasional quote from The Wizard of Oz.


IN THE NEWS:

"Make Virginia Home" -- That's the message from Governor Glenn Youngkin, who says he's concerned that Virginia is adding half as many residential units as were constructed 20 years ago. That's why he wants lawmakers to consider legislation to get rid of what he calls unnecessary regulation. Alexandria Mayor Justin Wilson says all those permits are there for a reason, and short circuiting requirements might end up being counterproductive.


At the Watercooler:

• Rumors around Richmond that Representative Jennifer McClellan may not endorse Lamont Bagby to replace her state Senate seat--but instead support activist Alexsis Rodgers.

• Delegate Wren Williams of Patrick County has been acquitted of the misdemeanor assault charge brought against him by Delegate Marie March (see our episode here)

• Tomorrow is the special election in Virginia Beach, where voters will be selecting a replacement for Jen Kiggans, who was elected to Congress in November. Democrats are hopeful they can flip the seat with Aaron Rouse, a member of the Virginia Beach City Council who is a former NFL football player. Republican Kevin Adams is a retired lieutenant commander in the Navy and a small business owner.

Trivia: Virginia’s early governors were elected by the General Assembly, not by voters. What year was the first time actual voters got to choose the governor of Virginia?

Tanner Long (@TannerLLong) answered our latest trivia question correctly-- “Richmond got its name from William Byrd after he saw the James River from what is now Libby Hill Park. He was reminded of the River Thames in Richmond in England and named the area after it.”

Episode Transcript

Michael Pope

I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman 

I'm Tom Bowman.

Michael Pope 

And this is Pod Virginia, a podcast that is ready for the General Assembly session to begin this week. Thomas, are you ready for the session?

Thomas Bowman

No, nobody's ever ready for this session, right, Michael?

Michael Pope

Well, I guess we're about to find out, aren't we? Let's get to the news. The fight for Speaker of the House in 1998. Congress does not have a stranglehold on drama for electing a speaker of the House. Back in 1998. The Virginia House of Delegates had a tense standoff that lasted several hours.

Bruce Jamerson 

The question now before the House is, shall the pending question be ordered? To the chair now, Mr. Chairman...

Thomas Bowman 

 That's the voice of Bruce Jameson. He had the unenviable task of serving as the Clerk of the House at a moment when all sense of decorum got thrown out. Democrats refused to recognize the election of several Republican members, which prompted Republican Delegate Bob Marshall of Prince William County to lead a revolt against Tom Moss as Speaker.

Michael Pope 

The rest of the Republican caucus joined in, and all hell broke loose. That went on for what seemed like an eternity as Republicans slammed their desks and shouted objections. Eventually, the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court swore in Tom Moss as Speaker of the House, and some Republicans in the chamber stood up and turned their backs.

Thomas Bowman 

At that point, things went from bad to worse. Republican Delegate Morgan Griffith of Salem demanded a series of voice votes, and that delayed the session and completely gummed up the works.

Morgan Griffith 

I would call for a viva voca vote on the Clerk; we can stay all day long if that's the in fact.

Michael Pope 

They weren't, in fact, there all day, and Delegate Marshal joined in by making this request about the rules.

Bob Marshal 

I wanted to debate now; this now is a debatable question.

Tom Moss 

No, sir. It is not.

Bob Marshal 

Read your rules. Mr. Speaker, your Clerk will inform you.

Tom Moss 

You know, I love you.

Bob Marshal 

So do I. Okay.

Thomas Bowman 

One of the weirdest moments in a session filled with weird moments was when Morgan Griffith quoted the Wizard of Oz to make a case in favor of proportional representation on committees.

Morgan Griffith 

What makes a flag on a mast waive? Courage. What makes a king out of a slave? Courage that's what makes a king out of a slave. And I would say to those of you who know in your heart, and in your soul and in your bones, that proportional seating is the right thing to do that today is the day that you rise up and you say, I shall not be a slave any longer.

Michael Pope 

Thomas, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore. That point about proportional representation was something that Republicans were really jazzed about at the time because when Democrats were in power before, Republicans eventually took over here. They did not have proportional representation on these committees, and they were totally packed with Democrats. And so the Republicans were upset because they had almost half the chamber. But if you look at the makeup of the committee, they only had like one or two members. And there was no proportionality on the committees. So when the Republicans took over, they implemented proportional representation. And to their credit, when they lost seats, they took off Republican members of their committee and added new Democrats. So this is something where they actually continue to walk the walk years later on proportional representation.

Thomas Bowman 

It's interesting to see Bob Marshall in his element, which is knowing the rules. For all of his faults, he was an amazing parliamentarian, Bob Marshall. It seemed like he knew everything from the rules to the obscure Thomas Jefferson manual and so many other manuals by memory. You could never win a fight with Bob Marshall. When it came down to the rules, when the Republicans had the speakership, he was just brilliant at that. And Michael, as an aside, also was incredibly ideologically consistent. So you always knew how he would vote and never wavered. And so it didn't really matter if you were a Republican or a Democrat or disagreed with him on some ideological issues. Suppose you had a Bill as a lobbyist or as an interested citizen if you had a Bill that you thought would be consistent with Bob Marshall's ideology. And wanted a vote, and you went and talked to him. And usually, you are correct.

Michael Pope 

Yep. Yeah, the guy certainly knew the rules. And what he was fighting for was what Griffith was fighting for. What you heard all those Republicans yelling and screaming and shouting and slamming their desks is because, in the 1997 election, the Republicans gained a lot of seats. And so they were at 51 to 48. 51 Democrats to 48 Republicans. But then here comes Governor Gilmore, appointing several Democrats to his administration, opening up seats, and creating special elections. So what happened is on opening day in 1998, they had three Republican members that had not yet been seated. And those three new members would have brought the total up to 50 - 50. So they were really fighting about there. Do we have an election for Speaker of the House with the three new Republican members? Or do we have the election for Speaker of the House without these three new newly elected Republican members. And the Democrats did not want those three new Republican members to vote. And the Democrats played every trick in the book that they could think of and used their power to prevent those newly elected members from participating in that election for Speaker. And that's how Tom Moss was elected. One of those three newly elected members that did not participate in the election of Tom Moss was Delicate Lee Ware. Also worth pointing out, one of the Democrats who were in the chamber during all of this craziness in 1998 was a young Donald McEachin. Whose absence in Washington actually changed the math a little bit and what's required to elect a speaker. Well, let's go back to 2023. here for a minute. Make Virginia home. That's the message from Governor Glenn Youngkin, who says he's concerned Virginia is adding half as many residential units as were constructed 20 years ago. That's why he wants lawmakers to consider legislation to get rid of what he calls unnecessary regulation.

Glenn Youngkin 

We've got to uncork the supply of housing so we can bring the overall cost down. Part of that is the length of time it takes in order to file permits and get approval. And oh, by the way, to connect with all the water permits and everything else. And so we want to shine a bright light on that.

Michael Pope 

Alexandria Mayor Justin Wilson says, all those permits are there for a reason. And short-circuiting requirements could end up being counterproductive.

Justin Wilson 

It would be a time-consuming process. And sometimes, it should be because you want to make sure that the community's voice is heard. I would caution Richmond about basically saying that those processes have to be approved during a certain amount of time. Because I think what you would see and this is why I think it would be dangerous, is you would see jurisdictions just become automatic no's.

Michael Pope 

Yeah. So what the Mayor is talking about there is a really important point, which is he shares the goal that Youngkin is expressing here. Which is from their perspective, the supply is low, and they both want more housing, like the stock of housing to increase. The Governor wants that the Mayor wants that. The question is, how do you go about doing that? And so one of the Governor's points is it takes too long to get all the necessary permits; the process should happen faster. So what's the fix to that Wilson is pointing out here that in other states that have tried to do something about this, they've created a timeline. So if the permit is not approved in a specific period of time, then the permit is automatically approved. Okay, so what incentive structure does that create for the local government Wilson is saying, well, that creates an incentive structure to just automatically say no to everything. It doesn't really matter much what it is; we're just going to say no, so we can meet the timeline. Well, that's counterproductive in meeting the goal that Youngkin and Wilson both share. So Wilson has actually reached out to the Governor and sent a letter to the Governor saying, hey, I want to work with you; let's sit down together and figure out ways that the goal that you and I share can actually be accomplished. So far, the Governor has not responded to the Mayor yet. But who knows, that might happen in 2023.

Thomas Bowman 

Well, it's early, and my guess is one of these things gets kicked to a study. And if something passes, if something happens this year, which who knows, could likely plausibly get kicked to a study where they actually come up with real solutions to this problem because, as Sarah noted in our previous episode, there aren't really specific proposals on the table other than just gutting the regulation. So, Michael, I actually find this to be somewhat of a red herring. So this is happening all across the country, corporate landlords are buying up the housing stock, and they're sometimes letting like 50% of it just sit vacantly. And there's a reason for that because it helps them maximize their profits; they know exactly how many units they can buy and how much they can let sit empty in order to extract the most cashflow out of the units that are rented. So this is not a unique problem in Virginia. And there are a few solutions that could get considered for that. One is just completely outlawed or caps the number of non-primary properties or secondary properties that somebody or a corporation can own. Another thing is tripled the tax rate on vacant units. So when they're sitting empty, deliberately, you could really hit them where it hurts and increase their taxes dramatically. And you create some disincentives there. Economics is really interesting. And Wilson's pointed out a nuance of the way that local governments work that there might be some unintended consequences of just trying to universally cut red tape, but it is done in other states.

Michael Pope 

Yeah. And Wilson, also, when I talked to him, pointed out that he not only agree's with the goal that the Governor is expressing here, but there are some parts of this plan that he really likes, for example, the carrot and stick approach, he likes the carrot part of this. Which is you give local governments money as an incentive if they create new units of affordable housing. So like he wants to see more of that. And gosh, would it be interesting for 2023 if Democratic Mayor Justin Wilson goes to the Executive Mansion, hangs out with Youngkin, craft a plan, it's a bipartisan plan, and they adopt this thing that will allow more residential development to happen in Virginia? Is that on the horizon for 2023, you think?

Thomas Bowman 

I have no idea, Michael. I think there's a lot that is and isn't on the horizon for 2023. And, you know, Sarah noted correctly that election years of which 2023 is, is one in which there's a lot of saber rattling, a lot of bell ringing, and very little of substance actually changes. So it remains to be seen. Another thing I'd point out is that a city and the way Virginia has local governmental systems and rules work. A city could actually, hypothetically, consider taking some of its city-owned lands, building housing on it, and administering affordable housing. It's interesting because affordable, the term affordable, is often subjective. So there needs to be a definition that like it's sustainable, and minimum wage would make sense.

Michael Pope 

It's usually based on the average median income.

Thomas Bowman 

Uh-huh. And so however, as we mentioned in a recent episode, there's a pretty big difference between $80,000 and $120,000. Similarly, there's a really big difference between $30,000 and $50,00 or $60,000, especially if you live in Northern Virginia, where all of that can very quickly be unaffordable if you're making less than six figures a year.

Michael Pope 

Usually, what happens with your local governments, or at least I've seen this in Northern Virginia, is they'll create different kinds of affordable housing units for different kinds of populations. So 50% of the AMI or 80% of the AMI, that sort of thing.

Thomas Bowman 

Yes, class discrimination.

Michael Pope 

Well, in this case, they're trying to make sure that housing units are available for people who are not wealthy, but then also people who are on the extreme end of poverty too.

Thomas Bowman 

We should probably consider that housing is a public utility. It's necessary, and everybody needs a place to live. So I would love to have a discussion with an actual expert on this issue because this is one of those areas that are ripe for disruption, if you will, as far as policy goes. In a way that actually likes juices, the capacity and rethinks, how we do housing in the United States. So especially in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Michael Pope 

 All right, well, let's head over to the water cooler. Thomas, what are you hearing about the water cooler?

Thomas Bowman 

Michael, I've got one that's really juicy, really juicy. So making its way or making the rounds in Richmond is a spicy little rumor about Jennifer McClellan and that she is going to not endorse Lamont Bagby to replace her Senate seat and endorse, instead, Alexis Rogers.

Michael Pope 

That is spicy.

Thomas Bowman 

Both of whom have been on the podcast before.

Michael Pope 

Everybody thought that with Bagby dropping out of that race, he was setting up a potential endorsement from McClellan in the future when he wanted to run for her Senate seat. But this rumor that's apparently bouncing around Richmond would indicate that that deal may not have been cut after all, or maybe people thought it was cut. It hadn't actually been cut.

Thomas Bowman 

Yeah, who knows what gets set in a backroom? McClellan has an interesting track record here, and throughout her career, she's flipped-flopped on certain issues, like within just a couple of weeks of each other. And it's been a while since she's done this, but if it's true, Alexis Rogers and Jennifer McClellan have a very long history of working together. And then that's not unique to Alexis Rogers. But Alexis Rogers was one of the more like, senior people in that orbit. And s if McClellan is going to endorse this person who's not elected to anything, ran for Mayor, but is a very well-known activist, especially in this part of the Commonwealth. That would really shake up Richmond politics in a way that is very interesting. I'll frame it like that. Because, you know, politics is the art of who gets what and when. So, if Alexis Rogers gets a McClellan endorsement in 2023, that would make things really fascinating and shake up various assumed lines of succession as far as the game of hopscotch goes for elected political offices. One other thing to consider is that there are also other rumors going around that Tim Kaine is not interested in running again, that he's telling some people that he is, and then other people are getting a very distinct sense that he may not, in part due to his long COVID. And there are all sorts of calculations in play here that are just really fascinating to dive into. Well, what do you got for me, Michael?

Michael Pope 

Well, people are talking about this primary fight out in Southwest, and when I say primary fight, I mean literally. Our listeners will recall Delegate Wren Williams of Patrick County was accused by Delegate Marie March of assault. Well, last week, a judge in the case said that Wren Williams was not guilty of assault. So it's interesting that this fight is happening, you know, between two of the House's most conservative, most MAGA Republicans happen to be thrown into a district with each other. It's kind of like a steel cage match here, where he got these people in a primary fight. And then there was this altercation and illegal fights, and just craziness going on out there but score one for Wren Williams because he doesn't have an assault charge he's got to deal with now.

Thomas Bowman 

Yeah, Marcus Schmidt was on the podcast a few months back to talk about this. This incident and the reporting out of the Cardinal have been pretty apparent that there wasn't all that much at least no evidence to suggest that this accusation was founded on any kind of real basis or reality. But it also doesn't. There's not really a consequence to Marie March doing it because of a subjective, he said. She said kind of fight. And also, people don't remember the correction people remember the initial story often, so this could be one of those incidents where Wren Williams is happy because he doesn't have to deal with these charges anymore. And he's his name is cleared. And Marie March is happy because she got all the headlines that she wanted out of it that her primary opponent assaulted her.

Michael Pope 

Is there really no consequence for filing a bogus lawsuit? I mean, I feel like I don't know. I just don't think about this just seems off.

Thomas Bowman 

Well, I mean, there are laws on the books but there is very clearly an exception for people that get letters after their name appears in this country. So, yeah, we've got laws, hypothetically, that could get enforced, but someone's got to enforce them.

Michael Pope 

One more thing people are talking about around the water cooler. Thomas is this special election in Virginia beach tomorrow where voters will be selecting a replacement for Jen Kiggins who was recently elected to Congress. So Democrats are feeling hopeful that they could flip this seat for Aaron Rouse, who's a member of the local City Council there and also a former NFL player. The Republican in that race is Kevin Adams, a retired Lieutenant Commander in the Navy, which is, of course, important out there in Virginia Beach. Thomas, do you think Democrats can flip this seat that has been held by Republicans for many years?

Thomas Bowman 

Yeah, well, look, Ben Tribbett made a really good point when he was on the show a couple of weeks back. And I highly recommend, if you haven't heard that, go listen to what Ben Tribbett had to say, especially on this election. Because Dems are starting with a several thousand Vote advantage and the permanent absentee list of voters. And also if you go and look at who's raised the most money, and we often know that not always, but generally, money can be indicative of who's got the momentum. Rouse is just crushing the fundraising right now. And it's it doesn't really look all that competitive, and we're not getting a sense of any last-minute, big checks coming into the Republicans. So look, elections are always, you know, a nail-biter to some degree. And then, of course, hindsight becomes 20/20; oh, I was always. I always knew this person was gonna win. But I've been in elections where the data clearly showed the question was, are we gonna win by 60% or 70%? And then you get there on election day, and you're just in cold sweats, and then it's time for gut-checking because you don't really know what's going to happen in that polling booth. You know, people can lie to you, and your data could be bad. There are all sorts of things that could go wrong. And surprises do happen.

Michael Pope 

But Democrats do have this interesting built-in advantage, which is the automatic absentee list, which we also talked about on that podcast with Ben Tribbett, which is fascinating. Because in a special election, your number one goal is to let voters know the election is happening. Most voters don't follow this stuff very closely. They don't know this special election is happening. When they receive the ballot in the mail, it's like, oh, hey, there's a special election; let me fill out this ballot. Disproportionately Democrats are receiving those ballots, and Republicans are not because of all the distrust that Republicans have about early voting, which is not to their credit here. I mean, like this is there, they may end up losing this election based on their distrust of the voting system. And Democrats might end up really capitalizing on this, this automatic early absentee voting system, where all these voters are receiving the ballots in the mail and Republicans are not,

Thomas Bowman 

It'll be an interesting first test for this working theory out of Ben, and we're gonna we'll see what happens here in just a few days. We'll know the results shortly after we publish this episode. Spoiler, of course, with podcast magic, we record these a few days in advance. So, Michael, the other thing to keep in mind for 2023 is that this chaos in Washington, DC, doesn't help the Republicans at all for these 2023 elections, which are going to be hotly contested. So, I mean, look at what's happening with the Speaker fight that we talked about earlier. And now they're setting the stage. They're not gonna be able to pass budgets here, shut the government down a bunch. It's gonna be an absolutely chaotic year. They're talking about defunding the DOJ and bringing back a rule that lets them cut salaries after the fact. Like, a fairly archaic rule. And, so Michael, we're looking at 12 months of absolute mess. You know, of course, now the House controls for 2020 for counting the votes again, and also in the Senate, Democrats have like 20 to 23 seats to defend. One of them now is open, and a very close election and three of the seats that they have to defend in three of the states voted for Donald Trump in 2020. So it's not great math for Democrats to keep the Senate in the next election. So things could be like really tough. And we know that often what happens in Washington DC, there's an equal and opposite reaction many times that can impact Virginia. And so if you're a Democrat, running for office right now, you're going to try to nationalize all of the issues and tie the chaos in Washington, to your Republican opponent to try to get voters to just punish the whole damn party.

Michael Pope 

Well, let's follow the advice of artificial intelligence and play around a trivia. Last week, we asked our listeners about the origin of the name Richmond, and several of our listeners responded, but only one was the first to respond with the correct answer.

Thomas Bowman 

Yeah, congrats to Tanner Long  @TannerLlong on Twitter. So he hit us up with this. Richmond got its name from William Byrd after he saw the James River from what is now Libby Hill Park, he was reminded of the River Thames and Richmond in England, that's a neighborhood, and named the area after it.

Michael Pope 

Important to point out that the city of Richmond in Virginia was named after the neighborhood in London known as Richmond, not the town in England that's called Richmond. So, the origin here is that the neighborhood in London gets its name from a palace that was built by Henry the seventh. It was called Richmond Palace because Henry the seventh was the Earl of Richmond, which is a totally separate part of England. It's way North, sort of near the border with Scotland. The city, the capital of Virginia, was named after the neighborhood in London. So yeah, Tanner Long, thanks for getting it right and hitting us up on Twitter.

Yeah. And Michael, you found this fun fact that Richmond is the most duplicated British place name, with 56 Richmonds worldwide.

Michael Pope

There are a ton of Richmonds all over the United States. You know, one of my hobbies is combing through databases for different jurisdictions. And so whenever you're looking at for anything in Richmond, and you're looking at a national database, you got to scroll through all the other Richmonds in the country, of which there are many. So yeah, there are lots of Richmonds all over the world as a result of this one town in northern England. That, you know, again, the neighborhood in London was named after the town. So this is actually Richmond named after something that was named after something. All right, so our next trivia question. So listeners, if you know the answer to this, chime in, and we will talk about this on our podcast next week. So Virginia's early Governors were not elected by voters; all the early Governors of Virginia were elected by the General Assembly. So the legislature chose the executive for many, many years. But eventually, there came a time when voters were allowed to choose who was Governor; what was the year? What was the first time that voters actually chose the Governor instead of the General Assembly?

Thomas Bowman

Alright, if you think you know, hit us up on social media, Facebook, Twitter, or DM us on Tik Tok; I guess we can do that, too. So if you think you know the answer to that, hit us up.

Michael Pope

All right, well, hey, let's head over to the listener mailbag.

Thomas Bowman

All right, let's open up that listener mailbag. Michael, who are we hearing from this week?

Michael Pope

Well, Thomas, we got a voicemail, and it's about you.

Jackson Taylor 

Hi, this is Jackson Taylor. I'm in fifth grade at Fairfax County Public School and a fan of the pod because my mom is on sometimes. On your January 2nd episode, Thomas said that the repeal of the state portion of the grocery tax was saving $10 to $15 on a $150 grocery bill. But I realized his math was wrong. He'd actually only save $2.25 Since the grocery tax was only 1.5%. Obviously, my math teacher deserves a raise, Governor Youngkin.

Thomas Bowman 

Oh, that hurts. Oh. Fact checked by a fifth grader and FCPS student, no less, of which I would compliment FCPS, but it's where I went to school too. So I was not a math kid. Michael, I don't know if you can tell. I was a History and English kid. And that's really embarrassing because my wife always makes fun of me for my not good math skills. And yeah, that was rough. Thank you, Jackson. I hope you appreciated the opportunity here to make fun of me as much as I do.

Michael Pope 

I'm sure our listeners appreciate that as well. All right, one more thing. Before we go, it's time to celebrate some birthdays. So we've got five birthdays this week. Tomorrow, January 10th is the birthday of Delegate Will Morefield Tazewell. Wednesday, January 11th, the opening day of the General Assembly session, 's the birthday of Delegate Roxanne Robinson of Chesterfield. Thursday, January 12th, is the birthday of Delegate Wren Williams of Patrick County. I'm sure he's celebrating his recent legal win. Friday, January 13th, is the birthday of delegate Chris Head of Botetourt, and then Saturday, January 14th, is the birthday of Delegate David Reed of Loudoun County. So happy birthday all around.

Thomas Bowman 

Sounds like there are Gonna be a few parties this first week of the session. Well, Michael, we got to wrap it up. We've gone way too long. So that's it for this episode of Pod Virginia. Don't forget to check out our website. Follow us on social media for more updates and discussion on Virginia politics. Until next time, thank you for listening.