Michael Pope

Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that started documenting the transition of power in Virginia a year ago this week. My name is Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

And I'm Thomas Bowman. This week on the podcast, Transition Virginia turns one year old.

Michael Pope

Happy birthday, Thomas.

Thomas Bowman

Happy birthday, Michael. It's hard to believe. But we actually launched this podcast one year ago this week.

Michael Pope

You know, I'm really happy that we've got back on the podcast, returning to the podcast one year separated from that first episode that we did all those many, many months ago. She is the legal and justice reporter for VPN. And she's also our in-house pawpaw contributor, Whittney Evans. Welcome back to Transition Virginia.

Whittney Evans

Hey, guys, thanks so much for having me. And I, just like you, cannot believe it was a year ago. And I thought the world was about as strange as it could get.

Michael Pope

You know, it's so great to hear your voice again, Whittney. I really wish I really wish we could do this in person. And I'm kind of bummed out that we're not able to hang out in the press room at the Pocahontas building, which is like one of my favorite parts of being in Richmond for the General Assembly Session. I really miss hanging out with you and all of your colleagues.

Whittney Evans

Well, I can't wait to get the gang back together. I really missed that GA building is just it's...the press room, in particular, is so sad. No windows, it's cold. But you know, despite the stress of being there, and covering the GA, it's, we all really enjoy each other's company. And I miss doing things like, you know, working to lo fi hip hop with Mallory Noe Payne and grabbing a beer after work. So nice, and I can't wait to get back to that.

Thomas Bowman

Okay, so it's not really a birthday party unless we have the traditional song. So, we have a special Transition Virginia performance from one of our good friends.

Sarah Graham Taylor

Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy Birthday Transition VA podcast. Happy birthday to you.

Thomas Bowman

Oh, very nice.

Michael Pope

And the Grammy goes to Sarah Graham Taylor. Wow. I cannot believe that she is such a talented singer. That's crazy.

Thomas Bowman

A woman of many talents.

Michael Pope

She is a woman of many talents. In her day job, she is the Legislative Director and lobbyist for the City of Alexandria, and also, apparently, a talented and amazing singer. She also sent this birthday greeting for our podcast,

Sarah Graham Taylor

Happy Birthday Transition VA podcast. May your birthday be more special than the most special session. May there be no sunset provision on your birthday celebration. And may your birthday be so special, it needs a two thirds vote to pass out of the General Assembly. Congratulations and Happy Birthday y'all.

Thomas Bowman

She's really contributed a lot to the energy of this podcast over the year.

Michael Pope

She has and she's explained stuff...You know, I go back when I'm editing the sound for this podcast, I have to listen to it over and over and over again. And Sarah is one of those rare guests where, when you listen to what the second and third time, you learn more stuff that you didn't get the first time you heard it. So I'm glad that she...we've been able to talk her into being a regular contributor on the show. And she's really helped me understand this Session that we're in now, which is kind of mind boggling in its scope and its scale. The New Democratic majority is now doing stuff in their second year in power that they did not do their first year. And wow, are they pushing a whole lot of stuff through the fire hose here. Just this year alone, we've got abolishing the death penalty and legalizing marijuana. Thomas, I'm curious, I'm gonna ask you about the strategy there. So why didn't Democrats do that their first year in power? Is there a reason that they put that stuff on hold for their second year in power? Why didn't we see this last year?

Thomas Bowman

Well, you know, their first year in power, you're talking about some heavy policy lifts, especially with marijuana legalization. And you had a lot of pent up reforms from 27 years, at least in the House, out of power, their first time in a very long time since having a trifecta, they finally get to do all the things they want to do. But then they only had 90 days to do it. So they had to decide what they could do right away. And what they had to come back, debate on, figure out as a caucus and do in year two. And so that's what we're seeing is the fruit of that strategy.

Michael Pope

So you mentioned the heavy policy lift with marijuana. There's so much going on there. You know, they've got to create a new agency to regulate this thing. And they've got to figure out how to expunge the old convictions. And they're going to bring in like $183 million in new revenue. So they got to figure out where they want to put that revenue. I was curious that there is bipartisan support here, but it's not in both houses. So it was actually a party line vote in favor of legalization in the House. But it was bipartisan in the Senate with Senator Donovan and Senator Vogel. What do you think of the politics here of marijuana legalization?

Whittney Evans

I mean, I definitely think that, I would imagine that Republicans are, you know, glomming on to the idea of bringing in new revenue. Obviously, that's a big plus for marijuana legalization. But they're also dealing with the idea of, you know, years and years and years of tough on crime and their general- they still support, most Republicans in the Virginia General Assembly, still support, sort of the tough on crime laws that were left over from, you know, like the 80s and 90s. And I think that's, it's hard to sort of pair that with moving Virginia in this direction that states across the country are moving, and sort of looking at marijuana, like it's like it's a new sort of business venture. So I can definitely see how Republicans would have a little bit of a split mindset about legalization.

Michael Pope

You know, it's interesting that what we're seeing with the death penalty is the sort of inverse with marijuana legalization, in terms of the bipartisan nature. So in terms of, in, in marijuana legalization, it was party line vote in the House, but then it was bipartisan in the Senate. It was the opposite, with the death penalty. So it was a party line vote in the Senate, with all the Republicans voting against abolishing the death penalty. But then in the House, it was actually bipartisan. You saw three House Republicans vote in favor of abolishing the death penalty. Thomas, what do you make of the strategy there? Like what's happening with the politics of the death penalty versus marijuana? Like why aren't they...those two issues align? Is there something about those two issues that separates them?

Thomas Bowman

Well, when you look at it, from a cultural point of view, a lot of these Republicans represent areas that considered themselves very strong in their faith. So while they may not necessarily believe marijuana, like should or shouldn't be legalized, they can definitely get behind outlawing the state killing of a prisoner. I think it's that particular policy is something that aligns closely with many people's faiths, especially the ones that they represent. Marijuana is more of, frankly, a regulatory conversation. You know, you've got a huge crowd of people more comfortable with marijuana. And frankly, I think rural Virginia, especially, could benefit from new cultivation business opportunities. But you know, when it comes to something that has been impugned morally, in the same circles where that you know, that make the death penalty, something a little easier to repeal. I think that explains a lot of the policy outcome on what could cut through the bipartisan line and what could not.

Whittney Evans

I think it's important to note, though, that the Senate almost had bipartisan support for the death penalty. Senator Stanley was actually co sponsoring this legislation. But in the end, he couldn't get behind the bill because he couldn't agree that folks who might otherwise have been on death row in Virginia, would have a potential opportunity for parole somewhere down the road. So I know that was a contention, but it just kind of tells you how fragile these sort of like bipartisan discussions are.

Michael Pope

Yes, Senator Stanley had an amendment that was rejected that sort of guaranteed that people would serve life in prison and not be eligible for parole. And so his...So he essentially took a walk. He didn't- it's not that he voted to keep the death penalty or voted against abolishing the death penalty, he just didn't vote. And I, actually it's weird. I've seen a lot of that this Session where, especially on the Republican side, a lot of the Republican senators just take a walk and stuff instead of voting for things one way or the other. And I have to wonder about the strategy there. What do we make of Republicans taking a walk on stuff instead of voting on it?

Thomas Bowman

Well, you know, in the House, it's an election year. So that doesn't explain all the senators, unless the senators have other ambitions, but abolishing the death penalty, the marijuana laws, reform laws, many other things that House Dems are pushing, are wildly popular, and you don't want to be on the wrong side of a 60/40 vote, especially things that, you know, are still popular in your own districts.

Whittney Evans

I'm kind of wondering why...Also, what is the difference between abstentions and not voting? Does anybody know the answer to that? Because I'm seeing-

Michael Pope

Are you talking about like, when they vote the yellow button, that's rule 20, or whatever that

Thomas Bowman

Rule 69?

Michael Pope

Heyo.

Whittney Evans

...The vote in the House that there were zero abstentions, but two did not vote, including Delegate McQuinn, which I'm curious about.

Thomas Bowman

That can be a lot of things, you definitely need to check in with McQuinn's office for the specifics. But that could be practically anything. Either the delegate wasn't there, and therefore missed the vote, or had to step out, go to the bathroom, or was there and didn't hear the vote, is sometimes like, it happens because of how quickly they move.

Whittney Evans

I'm always so curious about whether these things are some sort of political move, or it's simply that they went to the bathroom?

Thomas Bowman

Well, you know, sometimes going to the bathroom is political. But...and Rule 69 is supposed to be used when an individual legislator has a financial interest in the in the bill they're discussing. One way or the other said, interpretations can be subject to change based off the speaker, the clerk, or the Senate President, but generally speaking, it's supposed to be used when they've got financial interest in the bill.

Michael Pope

So yeah, in the Senate, that's Rule 36. Yes, the it's the yellow button, as opposed to just not voting. And I have to say, because they're doing it virtually this year, it's more awkward to have the virtual people not voting. Because what happens is, you know, everybody votes and they press the button. And then if you wanted, if you're in the room, and you want to take a walk, it's just easy, because you're not there and you don't press the button, and the clerk knows that you have intentionally not pressed a button, or that you're just not there. But when you do it virtually, you have to call on Senator so and so you know, how do you vote and then there's just this long, awkward silence to indicate that they're not voting.

Thomas Bowman

Sorry, so and so's not here right now.

Michael Pope

Can I take a message? So, you know, we've ended up meeting a lot of people on this podcast, and we've made some really amazing friends, many of whom are super fans. One of our earliest supporters, and our biggest superfan, is Adam Paley. And he sent us this birthday greeting.

Adam Paley

When Democrats gain control of the Legislature, in addition to the governorship, I knew this would be an exciting time to follow Virginia politics. This podcast came into being a perfect moment. Thank you for being an invaluable source of news information, entertainment. Happy Birthday Transition, Virginia, wishing you continued success, and a set of life jackets to keep up with the rising blue tide.

Thomas Bowman

That's very nice of Adam. Thank you, Adam, for that message.

Michael Pope

Thank you for sending us a message. And thank you for being our number one super fan. So you know, in terms of the the blue tide and the life jackets, one of the things the new Democratic majority has been trying to do, is unwind all of these get tough on crime Democrats from the 1990s. So that's all what's being sort of undone now is the new Democratic majority is sort of undoing the old Democratic majority.

Whittney Evans

Right. That's so interesting. And we've learned, I guess, over the over the, over the years since we left this sort of tough on crime era, that these mandatory minimum sentences, are sort of just keeping people in the system for longer than maybe necessary and it's even forcing people to, you know, admit to crimes that they didn't commit so that they could get plea deals. We've just learned so much about criminal justice in that time. But Republicans are still, you know, sort of holding tight to these like vestiges of the the tough on crime era. And for some reason, they're really stuck on getting rid of the mandatory minimum for DUIs, for instance. They're just certain crimes, that they're just, you know, set on believing minimum sentences deter those crimes.

Michael Pope

Or the assault on police officers. That's another one that we've seen a whole lot of discussion, because there's this mandatory minimum for assaulting a police officer, and you've seen so much lobbying here from the state police, and the chiefs of police, and the Sheriffs Association, and they're just bitterly opposed to getting rid of this mandatory minimum. And I have to say, from a messaging standpoint, it's actually a, they can frame it as, "Well, if you don't want the mandatory minimum, then that means you're going to let those people go, and there will be no punishment for assaulting a law enforcement officer," which is not, of course, how it happens, you know, like, you still get charged with it, and you still get sentenced for it. And it really depends on the circumstances of the case. But they can make that argument.

Whittney Evans

Right. And I think I think the other argument is, you know, you know, clearly this does not absolve people of accountability, but it does allow judges to do what they're supposed to be doing, which is using their judgment, to decide how long someone should spend in jail or prison, or if they should be in jail or prison at all. And I think that the major argument here is that, you know, it makes the system more personalized.

Thomas Bowman

You know, it's interesting to point out that in undergrad, at least in in the early 2000s, I was taught that nobody earns political points for being soft on crime. And so what you see here is a counter example, to, you know, good old fashioned book learning. And the question is, do Democrats get rewarded for being soft on crime, or does something happen, or are Republicans able to successfully gin up fear and angst about this move to reduce penalties, get rid of mandatory minimums, and the death penalty, pointing to the Willie Horton ad that Bush ran? It's burned Democrats in the past, and it will be interesting to see how the public reacts in the present.

Whittney Evans

I think the public has just really move forward on this issue in such a big way. I can't imagine that Democrats will be hurt by this at this point.

Michael Pope

I would strongly expect the Republicans to use this on the campaign trail in their campaign for Governor and in House races, they think they might win back some of the seats the Democrats took for them over the last two election cycles. I would be willing to bet this is at the top of their list of things to campaign on, is those Democrats are soft on crime, and they got rid of the death penalty, and they got rid of all these mandatory minimums. And they want you to be able to assault a law enforcement officer without consequences. And I think that we're definitely going to see them try to campaign on that issue. Will they be successful? I don't know.

Whittney Evans

I just think they're gonna keep playing to their, you know, by talking about this issue, they're going to keep playing to their own base. I just think that Democrats have just moved so far on this issue.

Thomas Bowman

Well, speaking of needing to get tough on crime, let's talk about our favorite Republican friend or one of our favorite Republican friends, Richard Crouse.

Richard Crouse

It is easier to make a camel jump a ditch, than to make a fool listen to this jackleg podcast. It's hard to believe that Transition Virginia has been on the air for a year. Oh, my, how far they have come, this jack leg podcast, but I will leave them with this. And I will bless them with May the fleas of 1000 camels nest in their armpits.

Thomas Bowman

Okay.

Michael Pope

Where do we go with that?

Thomas Bowman

Wow. Well, actually, that was a very nice compliment coming from Crouse. Thank you. Thank you.

Michael Pope

Do camels even live in Virginia?

Thomas Bowman

They've got a zoo down there, right?

Michael Pope

You know, it's funny, up here in Northern Virginia. If you go to the Mount Vernon Estate at Christmas time, they have a camel that is there every year. It's their sort of Christmas tradition because apparently George Washington loved exotic animals, and he would bring a camel to Mount Vernon at Christmas time. So they sort of continue that by bringing a camel there, but that's the only relationship between camels in Virginia that I am aware of. Usually, it's more horses, you know, Virginia's horse country, and of course there in Richmond, you've got lots of statues of people on horses. You see where I'm going with, my segue, ladies and gentlemen.

Thomas Bowman

Nice segue. Nicely done, slick, Michael.

Michael Pope

Whittney, talk about what's happening with everybody's least favorite equestrian statue of Robert E. Lee there on Monument Avenue in Richmond.

Whittney Evans

The ongoing saga of Lee Monument. I don't know how many times NPR has called. NPR loves this story. I'll tell you what people all over the country love this story. And NPR keeps calling me to go on the air to talk about, you know the latest developments in the Lee Monument, and every time they're sorely disappointed when I tell them you know, all of this happened today, I sat through this hearing, so and so said this so and so said that, but we have to wait for this filing or another decision, or we have to wait for what's happening right now is we're waiting to hear back from the Virginia Supreme Court about whether or not they'll take up an appeal. A lower court already said that Virginia has has essentially won the case, that Virginia has the right to take down the Lee Monument, but the opponents of taking it down, are trying to ask the Supreme Court to take it up. So at this point, it's, you know, in this continued state of limbo, and you know, meanwhile, they've got fences up all around the statue, so that they can prepare for for taking it down. So the saga continues.

Thomas Bowman

You know, I've got to say, its current condition is a huge upgrade over what used to be there. And the physical evidence for that is, never once did I get out of my car and actually go look at the monument until it got graffitied and then it was actually like a piece of art.

Michael Pope

I totally agree. You know, I haven't been in Richmond, of course, during the pandemic, but just sort of seeing the photos of it, I love the way it looks now. I mean, I it's a it's sort of counter-cultural, of course, it doesn't quite fit into the grand theme of Monument Avenue. But I think it looks really cool with all that graffiti all over it.

Whittney Evans

It's such an interesting symbol. And I just like, I kind of can't wait for like 20, 30 years in the future, where we can look back at these photos, and look back at, you know, just so many powerful images floating all over the place and like artwork that stemmed from, you know, what's happened with the monument, just the photos. I just, I honestly just can't wait to be looking back on all of this and remember how powerful it all was.

Thomas Bowman

I too, would like to put as much distance myself between me and the Trump era. Okay, let's take a break. When we come back, we'll talk about some of our other favorite podcasts that launched this year.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia. We're talking about our one year anniversary. Yes, we are one years old, one years old, one year old this week. You know, we weren't the only people to have this thought about doing a podcast because of the New Democratic majority. Right as we launched, we had competition. Nathan Moore, the host of The Bold Dominion Podcast out in Charlottesville sent us this birthday greeting.

Nathan Moore

For this auspicious occasion, I wanted to give you a gift, a virtual gift. And I had to look up what the gifts are for first anniversaries but uh, I guess traditionally, it would be paper. And the modern take is a clock and so I'm going to give you the the clock on the bottom right of your computer screen. That's, that's my gift to you. And you can use that to keep your timing under control while you're recording. It's a terrible gift, my apologies. But Happy Birthday nonetheless. And I look forward to lots more episodes from Transition Virginia.

Thomas Bowman

I can tell he's a Windows user.

Michael Pope

Not a Mac guy.

Thomas Bowman

No, but sick burn, and I'm glad our fans have longer attention spans.

Michael Pope

Speaking of Bold Dominion, we also have this birthday greeting from Bold Dominion producer, Aaryan Balu.

Aaryan Balu

Thomas and Michael, you guys do such a great show. I mean, I don't want to get too sentimental, but I'm really not ashamed to say that I think Transition Virginia is in my top two podcasts about Virginia state politics that was created in the last 13 months. So keep up the great work guys.

Michael Pope

Top two, we made the top two

Thomas Bowman

Hey, you know what, they're in ours.

Michael Pope

Yes. Aaryan, you're also in our top two. You know, they have figured out a way to make this podcast happen, despite the pandemic. We have struggled with the with making this happen. You know, our early episodes of course, we were harkening back to our earlier episode where we're all in same room and gosh, wasn't that fun, and it was more of a happy hour vibe back then. Now we've got to do it through all these machines. And it's just not as much fun, of course, but we're making it work. And I mean, that's life in the pandemic, right?

Thomas Bowman

There was a time when we thought this would only be the case for you know, maybe three to five episodes.

Whittney Evans

Yeah, it is pretty amazing that, you know, it has lasted this long. And it's also pretty amazing that you guys have made it work. And you've still made the podcast interesting. And you still have convinced me to come along and take this crazy ride with you.

Michael Pope

You know, Whittney, I know that you have done lots of reporting on the influence the pandemic has had behind bars, what's going on in prisons and jails in Virginia? How are they dealing with the pandemic?

Whittney Evans

It seems that they haven't been doing that well with the pandemic. And I think, you know, from the get go, all the way back to the very beginning of the pandemic, we knew, everyone knew, that these places, these congregate settings, were going to be a hotbed, it was going to hurt a lot of people who are incarcerated. And in fact, it did. A lot of people have gotten sick, a lot of people have died, including people who are incarcerated, and the people who go to work every day and work in these settings. It was so expected, and I think it was probably not managed in the best way that it could have been. And not only that, but it's so hard to find out what exactly is happening inside of these places. And that's what's, it's made it so difficult for reporters, to get this information, you know, you can talk to people who are in the on the inside, and they'll give you their perspective and tell you how they're feeling. And then you go to the Department of Corrections, or you go to the jail, and you know, they give you these very vague answers about what they're actually doing inside. Meanwhile, you know, you're watching the numbers go up, and you're watching how many people have died in Virginia who are in prisons and jails. And it just it sucks. It really sucks.

Michael Pope

And then there's all this pushback about inmates getting the vaccine, right? I mean, like you, when Virginia, when any state, gets the stockpile of vaccine, they need to figure out we give it to this group first, we give it to this group second, we give it to this group third. And you know, when that model came out, when that plan- those planning documents came out, there was a lot of pushback to inmates getting the vaccine so early before lots of other groups, right?

Whittney Evans

Yeah, it had a lot of play. I think it just had so many political implications for the Governor in particular, just the idea of putting people who are in prison and jail before other people in the community. That's a tough call for someone, in a political sense. I think that's a tough call. And but it makes so much, it also made so much sense, you know, these people were at such a high risk. And not only that, but even though it seems like they're in sort of this, like insulated environment, like I said, people go in and out of those buildings every day, people who work there, and it does get spread into the community. So it was a huge public health issue. But I can see how it would be so difficult on its face to say, "These people should get the vaccine before these other groups of people."

Thomas Bowman

Well, one thing we learned is that high density is high risk, right? So it just like we prioritize nursing homes, hospitals, other places, where human beings are packed in tight, we would need to prioritize jails because not all crimes are death sentences, right? In fact, no crimes are about to be death sentences.

Whittney Evans

Exactly. But I mean, it's just the stigma around what it means to be an incarcerated person in this country, and to be someone convicted of a crime is enough for some people to say, "These people do not deserve to be vaccinated for a deadly virus over other people in the community."

Thomas Bowman

You know, one of the best things about recording Transition Virginia remotely, is that we've been able to record with friends all over the Commonwealth of Virginia. And that includes a new friend we made this year, co host of the Grand New Podcast, Matt Colt Hall.

Matt Colt Hall

We just appreciate all that you do to make our Commonwealth a better place. And so congratulations Transition Virginia on your first birthday. I can't wait to be back on the podcast. I listen to every episode. And I can't wait to come back on and talk about my favorite thing, which is Virginia Republican politics. Oh, and we can talk a little country music and bourbon too. Happy Birthday, Transition Virginia.

Michael Pope

He loves Dolly Parton. He will talk endlessly about Dolly Parton. But you know, it's interesting. So the Republican politics are fascinating, now, especially, in the post Trump era. But you know what else is fascinating, divisions inside of the Democratic Party. It is so interesting to me, watching all the divisions that have played out since the Democrats have taken power. And you see a lot of conflict that was sort of either not apparent, or hidden, when they were in the minority. And perhaps one of the most interesting conflicts, from my perspective, is this debate over expungement. We've seen the House Democrats take a very different approach from the Senate Democrats, in terms of expunging old convictions. The House is insisting on an automatic model where after eight years, if you have an old conviction for like, drug possession, or littering or larceny, it will automatically be expunged. After eight years now, on the Senate side, they take a totally different approach, where they're really pushing for a petition based model where you, you don't have to hire a lawyer, but you'd be really silly not to, you have to hire a lawyer, you have to miss a day of work, you have to go before a judge, you have to explain what's going on. And so the Senate Democrats really want you to go through this petition based model to get rid of that old drug possession charge that you want to get rid of, or they want you to go to court to get rid of this old larceny conviction. Whittney, I know that you've done some reporting on this. What do you make of these divisions here inside the Democratic Party between the House Democrats, that are pushing for this automatic model, versus the Senate Democrats, that want this petition based model?

Whittney Evans

Oh, this has been so interesting to watch these divisions that can be so apparent, especially when they're arguing at hearings, and you've got Senator Morrissey sort of arguing with Senator Surovell. Morrissey saying, "Your proposal is way too complicated. No one's going to be able to understand this," and Surovell, he's got this whole, "You can't handle the truth," moment, when he says, "Well, life is complicated. And oversimplification is is you know, what gave us mandatory minimums."

Michael Pope

Yeah, he quoted HL Mencken on a really funny HL Mencken quote that he used.

Whittney Evans

Yeah, so I mean, it's so interesting. From the get go, the last session, it was the last Session before the Special Session, where, you know, it was a priority for Democrats to address expungement, especially for the Majority Leader, and they just had the same, they kept running into the same problems that they ran into this year, is whether it should be automatic, or or whether it should be petition based, and then what crimes actually qualify? And, I personally think, that the actual list of crimes was really hard to get. I don't know if you ran into this problem, Michael, but I almost felt like they didn't want to put the actual list of crimes, they didn't want to, like, advertise the list of crimes. And I think Morrissey, Senator Morrissey, said something about this. Once people see, you know, a crime that looks really bad listed on what's eligible for expungement, there's gonna be tons of pushback. And so I think that there was little hesitancy.

Michael Pope

You know, Whittney, on that issue, yes, it took me some time to dig into this issue. But the lists of- here's the list that's in my notebook in terms, and this is not a complete list, are an exhaustive list, but it's just things to think about that would be automatically expunged under the House model, but not under the Senate model. So we're talking about things like larceny, trespassing, disorderly conduct, littering, you would need to- so if you have if you have a conviction for littering, under the House model, it would be automatically expunged, under the Senate model, you would need to get a petition. So, but I think the most instructive crime that you really need to think about to understand this issue is drug possession. And I think that's actually kind of the logic behind doing the automatic model is if you've got a- and also, for the purpose of this discussion, we should probably take marijuana totally off the table, because that's a separate bill, and they're working on that separately. So if you've got an old marijuana conviction, the it'll will eventually be automatically expunged. So that, we're actually really talking about if you've got a possession charge for cocaine, or if you have a possession charge for heroin, or a possession charge for PCP, under the House model, all of those would automatically go away after eight years, assuming that you, you know, paid your debt to society, and you didn't have any further charges, and that sort of thing, that those old drug convictions would go away automatically. Whereas, under the Senate model, they want you to go before a judge and make sure that you know, you're pulling your life together. And a lot of times what happens with these drug crimes is that the what you're actually convicted of, is not necessarily what you've done, because of how the pleading process works. And so, so what they really want to do is, so if you've got a charge for larceny on your record, you actually might have a drug problem, and you ended up with the larceny charge. And so the Senate model, what they really want to do is get you before a judge and, and get a sense of what's happening in your life. And I and the another really interesting thing here is, both sides are really digging in their heels. And they do not, they do not want to compromise on this issue. They didn't want to compromise last year, during the General Assembly Session, they didn't want to compromise over the summer and fall, with their lengthy Special Session, and they don't want to compromise now. So this is going to head into a conference committee and that conference committee is going to be epic. And one of two things is going to happen. Either they're gonna figure out some kind of compromise, or they're going to walk away without doing anything on this issue, yet again.

Whittney Evans

They're digging in their heels for a reason. I mean, automatic expungement is a really expensive undertaking. And I don't know if you've dealt with court systems in Virginia, but it's pretty antiquated. It's they're going to have to do some serious technological upgrades to do this automatic stuff. And Surovell is saying that it's just really not practical. But at the same time, you've got these national experts that are saying, "People don't take advantage of expungement whenever they have to go to court, and, you know, go through this whole legal process, again. Not enough people can benefit from expungement." So to have the biggest impact, it needs to be automatic.

Thomas Bowman

It also strikes me that the one time technology upgrade, and the costs associated with it, would dwarf the cost savings and dockets, attorneys fees court costs, all of the above. Because it's easier to pull somebody off an automatic list than it is to create an automatic list in the first place, right? So do the thing that's a little harder, and then if there's somebody that we still think needs to go before a judge, right, it's it seems to be like there's a lot of wiggle room. If you go from 100 and maybe not quite 100, like what the Senate is offering, or like expedited drug courts with drug only dockets, to just keep it off the main dockets, which the same senators complain about those dockets being too long. You know, it's it strikes me that there's an obvious give and take here.

Michael Pope

On the issue of financial impact. You know, we can't do this podcast without support from you. And you know, our birthday is a good reason to think about contributing to Transition Virginia podcast. You know, it's really easy to become a Patreon, you just go to the website, transitionvirginia.com, and click on the little button that says, "contribute on Patreon." In fact, a friend of our podcast, Trevor Southerland, sent us this birthday message, pledging his support on Patreon, although you know it's funny, with this, when you listen to this audio, I think we might have caught him in a hot mic moment, take a listen to this birthday greeting from Trevor Southerland.

Trevor Southerland

I am going to be signing up as a $3 monthly subscriber to support your work. And I hope others will join me and do the same. Alright, that's all I have to say. $3 a month and they will start having me as a guest on the show again, what $10 a month? Jesus Christ, that's extortion.

Whittney Evans

I have to say, Michael, your your transition is just impeccable.

Michael Pope

I mean, it is Transition Virginia, for crying out loud.

Thomas Bowman

We're well practiced by this point.

Michael Pope

Trevor Southerland has been one of my favorite guests because he has a sense of humor, as we heard from that soundbite there. And I love when he and David Ramadan are on together, because they can disagree with each other with each other without being sort of mean and confrontational. And I find that pair to be really exciting.

Thomas Bowman

You know, they also frequently got into bets over the ultimate outcome of things on ballots, like redistricting. So that was fun to watch them, both very confidently make their bets, and then lose. With that, let's take a break. When we come back, we're gonna enjoy the circus.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia. We're celebrating our first anniversary, our first birthday, and we're hearing from some of our friends and from some of our supporters. Now, one of our friends, who sent us this birthday greeting, is also one of our Patreon supporters, Harrison Roday. He sent us this birthday greeting.

Harrison Roday

Michael and Thomas, Happy Birthday to the show. I have two gifts for Michael, a shrink ray and a twin size cot, so he can now at least sleep comfortably while living rent free in Senator Chase's head.

Whittney Evans

Oh, so many layers to that.

Thomas Bowman

He's a complex man. You know, there's something about Michael that gets under Senator Chase's skin.

Whittney Evans

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love this beef. And I just want to get out the popcorn when we talk about Amanda Chase.

Thomas Bowman

You know, when she was on the podcast, Michael drove her crazy.

Michael Pope

You know, I often interview candidates when they're running for office. And I, one of one of the things that I do is I listen very carefully, and I ask follow up questions. And the reason for that is because I'm usually trying to dig for certain kinds of answers. And so when we had her on the podcast, we started with the obvious question, which is, why are you running? So her answer to, "Why are you running for Governor," was because the Democrats are trying to take us off the cliff to socialism. And then she went on and said some other things. So later in the interview, I circled back around, because like, this is her key reason. This is the first thing out of her mouth when I asked her why she was running for Governor, is the Democrats and cliff to socialism. So I said, "Okay, well, what do you mean by that, like, give us an example of how the Democrats are taking us off the cliff to socialism?" And she started talking about things that had nothing to do a socialism. So I asked her the same question again a second time. And I, again, she didn't really answer the question. She talked about other things. So the first time I asked her the question, she talked about driver privilege cards for undocumented drivers, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with socialism. And so I asked her the question again, and the second time, she talked about recent changes to voting, which again, seems to have nothing to do with socialism. And so there was a third time I came back around, I said, "Okay, I just want to make sure that I've got, you know, an answer here, like when you say, cliff to socialism, what exactly are you talking about?" And it led to an exchange that was kind of tense and awkward. And we ended up editing it out of the podcast, because I thought it was distracting. She eventually did sort of answer the question. And so if you listen to the version of the podcast that we posted, you hear me ask this question about cliff to socialism a third time, and then you hear her answer. And then we abruptly end the podcast, because things got so tense and awkward, which you'll hear in this sound clip. So this is, when I asked her this question for the third time about cliff to socialism-

Thomas Bowman

This has never been heard before, Whittney. You are the first person, outside of me and Michael, and I guess, Senator Chase, to hear this audio.

Whittney Evans

I'm so excited.

Michael Pope

Yeah. So when I asked her this question about cliff of socialism a third time, this is how she responded.

If it's possible, Senator, go back to this comment that you made earlier about cliff to socialism. So is the is the driver privilege card for undocumented drivers socialism? Is recent changes to voting and how voting happens, Is that socialism? I'm just trying to sort of put my finger on what exactly is socialist about what Democrats have been doing recently in the General Assembly?

Amanda Chase

Okay, I'm gonna say this. First of all, who are you all with again?

Michael Pope

It's a it's a podcast, Transition Virginia podcast, I was just, you had mentioned off the cliff to socialism. I just want to put my finger on exactly what-

Amanda Chase

Let me just cut to the chase here. I feel like that what you're trying to do is create some type of podcast which is going to be used against me in my race for Governor. And I'm happy to answer any questions. But I feel like that this is not really an informative type session. This this is something that and look, I'm not stupid. I'm not naive to what is going on here. And I'm done with the interview. I am not going to be the victim of what you guys are trying to do. I'm done.

Michael Pope

We don't look. I appreciate what you're saying. And we do not- we're not making you a victim. And I really-

Amanda Chase

Let's just talk about this. You know, what really gets to me, is when people are dissin- disingenuous about their intentions for interviews. When I have typical interviews with people with podcasts, and I do them each and every day, it's not an interrogation. It's not assuming that their position is correct. It's more to listen and find out where I stand on policy issues...No, no, no, no, I'm talking. It's my turn. Thank you. This is a session, I believe, which, you know, I feel like this is a setup and a trap that you all want to use, whether it's the Republican elitist that want to use this, or maybe it's the liberals, the Democrats, whatever, I'm not gonna be your pawn. Sorry.

Michael Pope

Not the first time I've been accused of interrogating people. So we ended up pulling that out of the podcast, and we did not use it in our Amanda Chase episode, because I thought, and I still think, it probably would have been distracting, because she eventually did have an answer, which was that The Cares Act, paid people a subsidy, which was more than they might make in their job. So that was the answer that you will hear in the podcast, and you don't hear that tense back and forth that we had. Later, of course, the Senate moved to censure her, and I went on the radio and talked about one of the reasons why, was that she called the people who invaded the Capitol, that they weren't rioters and looters, that they were patriots. She did not like that. So she went on Twitter and called for me to resign. Breaking news, I'm not going to resign. And then she went on the Senate floor and denounced me on the Senate floor, which was special. That's never happened before, to me. And, you know, what do we make of all of this drama around this one senator, and how much oxygen it's sucked out of the atmosphere this year?

Whittney Evans

Yeah, I think this year has taught journalists a lot about having to decide how much how much oxygen to give some people. The controversy around Chase is is always a spectacle. But at some point, you know, it just becomes a sideshow. And like you said, it's, it's not really helpful, especially when we're simply doing our jobs. And we're trying to get to the heart of these policy differences. And it just, it doesn't do any of us justice, to focus on the circus.

Michael Pope

You know, it is interesting, it feels like every year, there is a different circus, you know, you, I'm sure everyone will remember back in 2019, there was the blackface circus, and it does feel like every year there's the big shiny object that distracts from the policy debate. I mean, like this thing with this one senator being censured, doesn't affect anybody's lives. I mean, it is sort of interesting, and there's drama associated with it. And it's a human story. But it doesn't change anybody's criminal record or ability to get a job or ability to get health care. It's, I mean, it's sort of nutrition free, you know, it's junk food, essentially.

Whittney Evans

Yeah, absolutely. And it the people who it does impact, are so close to the problem. Either you're a journalist or you're a politician, but it doesn't really impact people outside of the General Assembly. And I tend to just, I really don't like, you know, putting too much energy into those types of issues.

Thomas Bowman

You know, what's fascinating here, is we see the roots of Senator Chase's enmity toward Michael Pope here, right? Literally had to ask her three times just, what do you mean by cliff to socialism? What is the cliff, like? Clearly a talking point, not something that she actually believed? You know, or else it would be a lot easier to answer.

Michael Pope

And by the way, I said earlier, I'm accused of interrogating people. Often it's for this very reason, because people have a soundbite. And they'll say things like, I've interviewed dozens and dozens of candidates in my years as a journalist. And so usually what happens, especially with first time candidates, they'll have this, what they think is the soundbite, which will be, "I'm running," something along the lines of, "I'm running to remove waste and fraud from government." And so I'll say, so my follow up question, that would be, "Okay, well, give me a couple examples of waste and fraud." And I've never actually interviewed a candidate who could give me some examples. I think there might have been one or two times, but most of the time when people say stuff like that, they they can't back it up. And so this is sort of the reason why I listened very carefully. And I'm always trying to get at, "Why are you running? If you're elected, what do you hope to accomplish?" Like, let's actually think about this and take it seriously. And that's what I was trying to do with Senator Chase in our interview, and we got some pushback on this, because some of our listeners said we should have gone after her and you should have called her a liar. And you should have said that what you said about COVID is not right, and you should have called her out for lying about this or lying about that. And there clearly is room in the journalism sphere for that, and there's nothing wrong with taking that tack. What I was trying to do was a little bit different, is I was trying to take her seriously. "Okay, so Senator Chase if you become Governor Chase, like walk us through exactly what a Governor Chase would do." And like, "Let's really take seriously your reason for running, which is not taking us off the cliff to socialism. Give me some examples of that." And so that's what I was trying to do is like, take her seriously and get actual answers. And like I said earlier, she actually did have an answer to that. It took me a while to get there. But she eventually did answer the question, which is what you hear on the podcast.

Thomas Bowman

You know, I think it betrays too, that, like asking a question three times you melt down, and then you attack the reporter who did it, betrays the weakness of her strategy, and I don't think Amanda Chase is alone. It's a personality type in a lot of ways, but they just, they can't answer why they think what they think, they scramble for, you heard a bunch of conspiracy theories, some liberal agenda, something to hurt her in her campaign. That was the first tool in her arsenal, and then undermining the media, when she is very clearly documented, saying whatever she says, and doing the things that she does. What you've got here, is somebody who can't hold up under questioning.

Whittney Evans

And I think like, it's so easy for people to it's such, you know, low hanging fruit for people to just go after the messenger. And I know it's easy for me to say, or Michael to say, because we are both journalists. But it's harder to, it's harder to answer tough questions than it is to lambast journalists for doing their jobs.

Michael Pope

You know, I didn't even think of this as a particularly tough question. Because this was her reason for running. You know, I mean, you would think that it would be sort of fully fleshed out and you would be able to, you would be conversational. And so I didn't, in my mind, I didn't even really think about it as being a particularly difficult question. But I was frustrated that I wasn't getting an answer to it.

Thomas Bowman

Michael and Whittney, I'd be interested to know, as journalists, when Amanda Chase has her meltdown, often it's for, like, dramatic effect, and she's playing to the cameras or she's playing to, you know, people at home. And this, of course, had an editorial decision where we were able to not show that. So how did journalists take candidates like Amanda Chase, because she's not the only one, and how do you report on the things that those candidates say and do, especially when they're willing to lie about it, in a way that maintains the integrity of the truth?

Michael Pope

Well, actually, this is something that I've confronted many times, because, you know, I said earlier, this is not the first time I've been accused of interrogating people. And so I've over the course of my career, I've interviewed a lot of like school board candidates or city council candidates, or you know, that sort of thing. And people will say things like, "Well, I'm running to remove waste, fraud and abuse from you know, our government," and then I'll have it like a half hour phone conversation with someone where I will ask them the same question 567 times, and they don't have an answer. And so what you'll end up seeing in print is, "Candidate so and so says she wants to run for office to 'remove waste, fraud and abuse from government,' but could not name an example of waste, fraud or abuse," or something along those lines, right? So that's one sentence that is in reality, it's me asking the same question seven or eight times, and then getting frustrated with me, and hanging up the phone, and thinking that I've interrogated them, but from the readers perspective, it's only one sentence.

Whittney Evans

All right, I think that's the most reasonable and straightforward way to deal with it. If you point out in some way, even if it's just a quick, a quick sentence that, by the way, I did ask this follow up question. Just you know, and they couldn't answer this question. That's, you know, a very easy way to provide some context. Or you can come out of the quote with the actual facts of the issue and point out that, you know, this person claims this particular fact, and actually, I've checked that out, and it's incorrect. So I think there are a couple of different ways to deal with that issue.

Thomas Bowman

All right. Well, that is all for this episode. If you've got comments or questions about what you just heard, or maybe you only want to tell us what do you think about the show, write an email and send it to us at TransitionVApodcast@gmail.com and we might read it on the air. Subscribe to Transition Virginia anywhere pods are cast, follow the transition team on Twitter @TransitionVA and find us on the web at transitionvirginia.com. Don't forget to like and subscribe so you can enjoy our next episode of Transition Virginia.