Michael Pope

Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the ongoing transition of power in Virginia. I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, the Democratic Primary for Attorney General. Incumbent Attorney General Mark Herring is being challenged by Delegate Jay Jones. What are the issues in the campaign and what are the politics of the election? We have a dynamic panel to talk about the Primary. We're joined by the Virginia politics reporter for the Richmond Times Dispatch, Mel Leonor. Thanks for joining us.

Mel Leonor

Thanks for having me.

Michael Pope

We're also joined by the Richmond reporter for Courthouse News, who's also the Secretary Treasurer of the Virginia Capitol Correspondents Association. Brad Kutner, thanks for joining us.

Brad Kutner

Thank you so much for having me as well.

Michael Pope

Okay, well, let's start with our incumbent Attorney General, Mark Herring. He served as the Town Attorney for Lovettsville and a member of the Loudon County Board of Supervisors before being elected to the State Senate, where he served eight years before being elected Attorney General in 2013. He was reelected in 2017 and now he's seeking his third term in office. On the campaign trail, this is how he talks about his time in office.

Mark Herring

The first thing I did was go into court and say, "No, we are not defending an unconstitutional ban on marriage for same sex couples. We're gonna fight for marriage equality," and we won, and now look at the progress we've made. Since then I have transformed the office and shown Virginians just what an attorney general can do for them. We protected the Affordable Care Act, and Planned Parenthood, got an in state tuition for DREAMERS, we fought to defend our new gun safety laws, fought against dangerous white supremacist extremism. I returned over $350 million to Virginians in consumer relief, and I led the effort to stop Trump's racist Muslim ban. And when Republicans wanted to keep their racially gerrymandered districts, I fought them in the US Supreme Court and won and Democratic wins followed. I have proven that I can win even the biggest fights and I've transformed the job into a progressive powerhouse.

Michael Pope

So what do we make of Herring's time in office? Has he really been a progressive powerhouse?

Mel Leonor

I started covering Herring in 2019 and at that point, he had already made a lot of news for kind of being aggressive toward the Trump administration. I think that's most of what I saw at that time. Right when I started covering, too, that's when he acknowledged that like Northam, he too, had been in blackface. And I think that that was an important time. During his time in office, he, liked Northam, spent a few months in hiding and then came back and started pursuing cases against Purdue pharma, for example. And so they kind of made a name for being pretty aggressive at the federal level.

Brad Kutner

So the first time I met Mark Herring was actually at a fundraising, an LGBTQ fundraising event, for his first campaign when I was still the editor at Gay RVA, I kind of crashed a fundraising party that I probably shouldn't have been at. Both him and Northam have their long history in the Legislature. Both of them voted in support of the ban on same sex marriage. But that's back when everybody was okay with making gay marriage illegal. So I kind of watched him and the state advance from that. And I essentially followed him and his career closely on that point in specific, one of my favorite photos of all time, is his him issuing a marriage license to the first same sex couple on the steps of the Richmond John Marshall Courthouse. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely seen him go from a Virginia Democrat, I always joke that a New York Republican is a Virginia Democrat. I guess they call them blue dogs, right? So I've seen him be a part of the Virginia Democratic establishment and then saw him get more progressive on social issues as it was politically convenient. Until we get to the blackface scandal where obviously a lot of, blackface scandal, George Floyd, a lot of the criminal justice reform stuff kind of kicks into overdrive. So you wouldn't have called Herring a progressive until Trump came to office, until some of the civil rights issues really started to come to the forefront. So it's been neat to see. But I also am not surprised to see some of the attacks from the other fellow we're going to talk about here, Jay Jones.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, you mentioned Jay Jones, so let's talk about him. Anytime a challenger wants to unseat an incumbent, they've got to make a case for why that incumbent should get fired. This is Delegate Jay Jones talking about his background, and why voters should fire Herring and hire him.

Jay Jones

My grandfather, Hillary Jones, was a pioneering civil rights attorney here in Norfolk, he got really involved in at the movement even had my dad and my uncle, integrate in school here in 1961. And so every time I'm upset, dejected, frustrated, I think about their struggles and how I stand on their shoulders. And as we move into 2021, and beyond, we have a real opportunity here to redefine ourselves about what we value, highlight, prioritize. We can chart a new course in this new Virginia decade, and I think, now is the opportunity for us to really highlight our diversity. This state is eight and a half million people and growing. It is not the Virginia of 2017, of 2013, of my parents generation. This is a new place and new dominion. And we've done so many wonderful things in the Legislature over the last few years. But I will tell you that now is our opportunity to really lean into the fresh faces, the new voices, and the different perspectives that have traditionally been left behind.

Thomas Bowman

You'll notice that Jay Jones points out that today's Virginia is not the Virginia of 2013 or 2017. The two years Mark Herring was elected and re-elected Attorney General. Is this message of generational change gonna work with Democratic voters, Mel?

Mel Leonor

I think when you talk about some of the issues that Herring's been passionate about, you know, Brad was talking about the fight for gay marriage, for example, or definitely Herring made a big splash pushing back on Trump policies. That's just I think it's true that that isn't the America or the Virginia that the future AG would have to oversee. I think that based also on the endorsements that Herring has gotten, I think with the exception of Ralph Northam just a lot of more establishment, long serving Democrats, I think Jones is definitely making the case that Virginia does, or could use a new face, I think is his argument. He would be the first Black Attorney General in Virginia, African American. And at a time when he's emphasizing the push for civil rights right now, that is a message that seems to be carrying.

Brad Kutner

I like Jones a lot. I think he speaks a lot to the, what a lot of you know Politico's imagined to be a young and diverse electorate that's seeking new representation. And I think he fits the bill in a lot of ways. But I think he's going to run into a reality in the Democratic Party Establishment in this in this primary, where Herring has roots. He hasn't gotten the McAuliffe endorsement yet, though has he? He has not been endorsed by McAuliffe? Do we know that?

Mel Leonor

I don't think so.

Brad Kutner

Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of a weird dynamic that exists between McAuliffe, the de facto money gun with a human consciousness that is going to take the gubernatorial primary, and whether or not he links up better more with Herring, as he had in the past, that I think will be the biggest hurdle for Jay to overcome. But the progressive message, you know, it sounds good on Twitter and in digital ads. But whether or not it resonates with the base is really going to be hard to see.

Michael Pope

You know, it's always important to think about what issues are most important to the candidates in terms of how they want to frame their election. So when Mark Herring is asked about what his top priority is going to be for next term, he mentions banning assault weapons and the debate over preventing gun violence in general. Here's Mark Herring on his top priority for another term.

Mark Herring

I have led the fight for gun violence prevention in Virginia. I started in 2013, and made it a key feature of my campaign. And I won, not in spite of it, but because of it. And together we've been working with the advocates, we have finally, under new leadership, begun to make progress with expanded background checks, with reinstating the one gun a month law, with the red flag law, but there's a lot more work to do.

Michael Pope

So as you heard Herring say there, he actually had this as one of his chief agenda items for his first election back in 2013 and was successful. Brad, is this issue, preventing gun violence, something that's going to resonate and push him to another term in office?

Brad Kutner

Well, it's really hard for an Attorney General to write legislation. I mean, I've heard I've heard Herring try and take a lot of credit for bills, and Jones has has used that as an opportunity to remind people that the AG doesn't write bills. He can advocate for bills, and you'll see members of the AG's office come and speak on behalf of things. I mean, there's a version of this election where you see the gun debate being minimized in general, again, a lot of this sounds good in the primary because it's gonna fire up the base. But I honestly think the Virginia Democrats are going to be so scared of Republican turnout come November, that you might see the gun legislation pushed in some of the states, bluest parts, but especially in the swing districts, and especially from the higher higher ups. I bet you don't see talk about gun laws, new gun laws, you'll talk about the old gun laws, maybe, but I bet you don't see them talking about new gun laws after we hit the primary.

Michael Pope

You know, Senate Majority Leader Dick Saslaw had a version of the Assault Weapons Ban that he introduced, and then it didn't go anywhere. He ended up withdrawing it. Mel, is this issue of the Assault Weapons Ban, in particular, going to be kind of a lightning rod heading into the fall election season?

Mel Leonor

I think Brad is right on the politics. I think as far as the Statehouse goes, the reason that that bill didn't make it through, is because it didn't have the support of you know, more moderate Democrats in the Senate. It wasn't that, you know, Republicans were able to successfully push back, it was that some people in the party just are not too keen on this idea. And that won't change after the fall elections. I'm sure Democrats, including Herring, in whatever office he's in, will continue to push for it. But I think Virginia is probably a ways away from seeing this legislation passed. I think you saw a big push for it. And the Northam Administration, and certainly Herring, making a big push for it in 2019. And then I think you saw this year that that bill wasn't introduced again. And I think the reason for that was that it didn't have a path.

Brad Kutner

I mean, I don't know how they write a state level Assault Weapons Ban. This just seems, I mean, we passed a lot of gun laws already, just constitutionally and everything else, especially with the makeup of the Supreme Court, I think passing a...Yeah, it's just it seems so far out of reach. But it's it sounds good in a fundraising campaign and it sounds good in the primary. I just I have...Yeah, sorry. It's just makes me laugh really hard about how, how far to the left some of the folks are going on this and how much we're gonna see that reeled back.

Mel Leonor

And I think you saw the bill fall for that reason. There was a lot of debate and a lot of tinkering with the language, and how it would work, and when it would be implemented, and in which case, you could have it or not. And I think that sort of messiness that you're talking about of like how you come up with this legislation was ultimately what I think, at least it was the tool to kill it in the end.

Thomas Bowman

You know, also from the legislature's perspective, they would tell you that they've already done that, they only have 60, or 90 days, depending on the year, to enact sometimes generations worth of reforms. And they would say, "Well, we've already done guns, we've got to do something else now."

Brad Kutner

Yeah.

Mel Leonor

I think there's a politics there, too.

Thomas Bowman

Sure. There's a lot so but let's turn our attention to Delegate Jones. He says his top priority, if elected, would be justice reform.

Jay Jones

I will use the Office of the Attorney General, and that platform and that pulpit, to continue to be a loud voice, as I have been in the legislature, to stand with my fellow Democrats who call for a more fair, and just, and equitable Virginia. And embedded within this is an Office of Civil Rights in the Attorney General's Office that actually has teeth, that has investigatory and enforcement powers, that can protect people, that can go after incidents of racism, whether it's in our police forces, in housing, in banking.

Thomas Bowman

Worth noting that the Office of Civil Rights was created in January of this year. So it's a relatively new part of the Attorney General's Office. Delegate Jones can make the argument to voters that they have the opportunity to elect someone to the office, who is an African American, who has lived experience that speaks to the issue of justice reform. Is this an argument that's more compelling than Herrings argument about gun violence prevention?

Brad Kutner

So Jones has raised some interesting points about when and where and how Herring has started investigations and police departments, dealing specifically with their interactions with Black Virginians. I know like the Windsor, Herring put in, there started investigations of Virginia Beach and Spotsylvania, but he kind of dropped the ball or at least didn't show up until he was criticized for the Windsor Stop where the the member of the military was pulled, and man did that video look bad. So yeah, I mean, this is again, one of those issues, especially when you're talking about criminal justice reform, that the Republicans are going to hit super hard during the general, and I think the state party, and we say the state party, but let's face it, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Democrats nationally stepped in just because they don't want to have an embarrassing loss this year. If they stepped in and said, "Hey, don't mention this part one, part two will give you money if you don't mention this." So I don't know. It's a great idea. And Lord knows the state has a lot of civil rights issues that needs to work through. But between the limited power that I think the AG's office already has, I just don't know what more either, either, I guess candidate could do going forward. But who knows?

Michael Pope

You know, this Office of Civil Rights is something that, from Herrings perspective, he wanted to do this for a long time. And when Republicans were in power, he worked with Delegate Lopez to try to create an Office of Civil Rights. And that didn't happen because Republicans were in power and they killed it. So when Democrats came in power, Herring worked with the other Herring, Leader Herring, to create this Office of Civil Rights. Now, it's true that Delegate Jones had an alternative version of that. So there were sort of warring versions there between Leader Herring's version and Delegate Jones' version. Mel, this issue of the Office of Civil Rights is something you hear about on the campaign trail all the time, Jones thinks this could be a wedge issue, is that going to work?

Mel Leonor

I think a lot of different AG's offices, you know, even at the federal level, the Justice Department has an Office of Civil Rights. And it doesn't go away when, you know, a more conservative or less progressive person takes hold of that agency. I think he could successfully make the point that the office will only go as far, or do as much, as the person in leadership, and it seems that he's making the case that as a Black man in America, he can wield the limited power of this office to do more good than Herring could.

Thomas Bowman

Alright, let's take a break. We're going to come back, we'll talk about wrongful convictions and protecting voters against intimidation.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia, we're talking about the Democratic Primary for Attorney General. Mark Herring is the incumbent and he's got a challenger, Delegate Jay Jones. Now one of the issues that's been a flashpoint during a recent candidates forum was a new Conviction Integrity Unit. Here's what Mark Herring said about the new office.

Mark Herring

To wrongfully convict someone is to deny them their freedom and countless opportunities. And so that's why I created the state's first statewide Conviction Integrity Unit so that additional resources, additional lawyers, could be brought in to more proactively identify wrongful convictions and then get them overturned.

Michael Pope

But, Delegate Jones says the timing of this new office is dubious.

Jay Jones

This justice system has been skewed against certain populations for far too long. It is inequitable, that is a fact. And so as we move ahead, we've got to continue to prioritize seeking truth, but doing it in a way that is consistent and not just popping up when we have elections. And I want to make sure everybody's aware that we were supposed to be just supposed to seek truth at all times, not just in June and November.

Michael Pope

So it seems like everybody thinks this Conviction Integrity Unit is a good idea but is the timing of it dubious? Mel, we'll start with you.

Mel Leonor

I think on a lot of issues, including the Civil Rights Unit, for example, Jones has tried to make the point that things that he's been pushing for obviously, he's a really big voice on criminal justice reform in the legislature, Herring sort of follows, I think this is an issue that Democrats are interested in right now, this idea of people being wrongfully convicted. And that being a product of you know, systemic racism in the criminal justice system. So I don't know that he'll be able to firmly make that point, especially if it's something that both of these candidates are appealing to care about.

Brad Kutner

This seems like an issue that will animate a primary, but will all but disappear after the primary's wrapped, because of concerns about Republican turnout, and Republicans using any kind of criminal justice there. Man, I was talking to some friends parents from 757, they were helping them move up here in Richmond, and they're, you know, 60 year old Republicans, they couldn't vote for Trump because of some of the stuff he said about veterans. But I asked them both, if they'd ever heard of Virginia's parole board, just to see how that issue was landing as far as criminal justice wedge issues go. And neither of them had any idea what the parole board was, let alone this scandal associated with it. So while I think Democrats are gonna want to talk about the, you know, progressive nature of sentencing reform, and about the integrity and convictions, I think this is going to be a primary issue, that both candidates are going to hit hard. But once they get past the primary, I think they're going to be too scared to mention much of it. So whether or not it makes the impact with the primary voters will be seen. And you got to give credit to Jones for pushing real hard on this. But you know, he's a state delegate, his district is going to be the one who sees him talk about it the most. Meanwhile, Herring gets the entire platform. So as much as Jones has been mad about Herring following in his footsteps, Herring's still the one who gets the headlines when he announces it.

Mel Leonor

I would say too, that this issue, has probably reached the more average voter in terms of the conversation about repealing the death penalty, which obviously Governor Northam signed. At that time when Northam signed that bill, you know, he talked a lot and other leaders talked a lot about people being wrongfully convicted, and the brokenness within the criminal justice system. And so I think this is just an issue that has wide appeal. And while Delegate Jones has certainly been a powerful voice, in terms of criminal justice reform in the legislature, I think it's something that Democrats, in general, are focused on.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, so we've got the Conviction Integrity Unit and debate going on. But there's also the issue of election integrity. And it's not just Republicans talking about, "the big lie." Election integrity is also an issue on the Democratic side, where Delegate Jones says that, "General Herring isn't doing enough to protect election integrity," and he wants to create a new office to protect those voters.

Jay Jones

I'm so proud of the fact that we announced the intention to create a Voter Protection and Election Integrity Unit here in Virginia. We saw instances of discrimination and intimidation in Fairfax just last year, and we can't stand for that. That this doesn't exist already is downright shocking to me.

Thomas Bowman

But Herring says he's taken a number of actions to protect voters.

Mark Herring

We went into court and got a court agreement to make sure that the witness requirement on absentee ballots was waived. My team worked to make sure that when Trump tried to make it harder for people to vote by mail, by sabotaging the Postal Service, we sued them and got an injunction to block it. And when some Trump supporters went to Fairfax, on the first day of early voting, and engaged in the activity that could potentially have been voter intimidation, I immediately put out a legal opinion laying out the state and federal laws that prohibited so everyone would know that is not permitted or tolerated in Virginia.

Thomas Bowman

Does Virginia need a new office to protect voters? Or is this something that the AG should be doing anyway if there's a new office or not?

Brad Kutner

I love Herring taking credit for the waiver of signatures. I mean, I guess he technically does because, if I'm not mistaken, that was instigated by a lawsuit from ACLU. The ACLU dispute over witness signatures, I'm pretty sure was mediated and settled by a judge. They also had Lee Carter's lawsuit over reducing the number of signatures required to get on the ballot. That was another thing that I believe was was the settlement between the two. So you know, whether or not Herring gets to take credit for a lot of this stuff, or whether it's the result of plaintiffs, is certainly up to debate but he's gonna campaign on it either way, it seems. But yeah, I mean, I just don't i don't know if this really tracks as an issue because I think the moment you start using the word, "voter integrity," I think Democrats get turned off by it because of the big lie because of the association with it. And as for the stuff the protests in Fairfax County, I remember the legal opinion going out, I don't know if it ever got utilized. I'd be surprised to try and...It would be a really bad look to have cops arresting protesters at a ballot box, a polling station, but I mean, he's certainly wanted to start the fight. So we'll see.

Michael Pope

You know, since Mark Herring has been in office, he created the Office of Civil Rights. He created a Worker Protection Unit. He created the Conviction Integrity Unit, which we talked about. He reorganized the Consumer Protection Section. So does this office need yet another unit? Mel, I mean, it's this sort of unit creep, essentially?

Mel Leonor

You know, and I just wonder if maybe among the most progressive parts of the party, this would sound like a good idea. I just also think that there are a lot of more fiscally conservative Democrats out there, or just people who are dissatisfied with the government, which you know, includes people from both parties who just don't want to see, you know, more money going to the bureaucracy, just people sitting in an office, maybe doing something notable every once in a while, and so, not that that's true, but I think that it's a perception that is out there. And so I wonder if the idea of pitching it as a new office, as opposed to just doubling down and focusing on that work would have wider appeal. And I think to Brad's point, you know, the other thing that he mentioned in his clip is about working to push back on changes by the Trump Administration, to the Postal Service. That's something that he did in conjunction with a lot of attorney generals who were also similarly worried that the delays were changes at the post office, which would impact their elections.

Michael Pope

You use the word, "perception," which is really key to this debate here, because Herring would say, "Look, protecting voters, and protecting election integrity, is something that this office should be doing it anyway. And as Attorney General, here's what I've done," you heard the sound clip: x, y, z, a, b, c, he had a long list of things that he was taking credit for. And then Jones is saying, "Hey, we need a new unit to show that it's a priority of mine, it's something we're going to take seriously." So I mean, there's the Herring argument that says, "Look, we've been doing this all along." And then there's the Jones argument to say, "Hey, look, we're gonna have a focus on this." Brad, do you see either one of those sort of outweighing the other?

Brad Kutner

Well, I think Mel's super correct about voters getting concerned about expanding AG like sub offices. But I think the ironic point there is the AG's office is probably super minimal compared to other states, especially as you know, Republicans fear we turn into New York or California, I would imagine Virginia's legacy as a red, if not purple state, has probably left a lot of our bureaucratic institutions super understaffed and super underfunded. So expanding, creating some of these offices might sound bad, but they could probably address a lot of issues. Worker protections, I mean, Lord knows how many individuals would benefit from enforcing labor laws better. Those are two things that businesses really don't want to see happen. So there's also that and see where the wedge between the business community widens in Virginia as it shifts to the left. While the offices may not have existed, these are all technically responsibilities of the AG's office to begin with, if it was empowered by the general legislature to do so. So either them announcing new offices begs the question, do you need a new office to do this or can you just do it?

Mel Leonor

And not to get too wonky, but we do have elections in Virginia every year and the Voting Rights Act of Virginia that the Governor signed, and that was sponsored by Senator Jen McClellan and Delegate Marcia Price does put more work on the Office of the Attorney General. They essentially now have a broader duty to make sure that voters aren't being discriminated against and that localities are not, essentially, changing the elections to make it harder for certain groups to vote. And so whether there's a new office or not, I think the Legislature this year, has given the the Office of the Attorney General extra work when it comes to making sure that voters are protected.

Thomas Bowman

All right, well, let's take a break. When we come back, we're going to discuss endorsements.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia. We're talking about the Democratic Primary for Attorney General and it's a campaign that's splitting Democrats, and perhaps this is particularly noticeable in the endorsements. Here's Delegate Jones talking about his endorsements.

Jay Jones

I am so excited about the fact that Governor Northam has endorsed our campaign, he and Pam are all in, along with Congresswoman Elaine Luria, former Attorney General Mary Sue Terry, and a number of members of the General Assembly who believe in our energy, our passion, our conviction.

Michael Pope

Now, the Governor also appears in a campaign video with Jones.

Jay Jones

Great. Hey, good to see you, man. This campaign is about leading the way on criminal justice reform and police reform.

Ralph Northam

My proudest day, and you were standing right there beside me, was when we ended the death penalty.

Jay Jones

Governor, we're reckoning with our past. And there's so much at stake in the future. And that's why I'm running for Attorney General, to continue to build upon the work that we've done.

Ralph Northam

Virginians are excited that Jay Jones is going to be the next Attorney General.

Jay Jones

And I'm so proud to have your support, because we've got so much more to accomplish.

Michael Pope

How much does this endorsement from Governor Northam really mean for Jones? Will this carry the day and help him knock off the incumbent?

Mel Leonor

Well, I think it could help his fundraising certainly, but I also think that, for example, in the Governor's race, McAuliffe has gotten so many endorsements from all of these powerful Democrats. And I think that that's made it a little bit more challenging for the other candidates to get more momentum. I think Northam coming out pretty early for Jones, I think helped prop him up as somebody that, you know, a lot of the sort of big fundraisers could get behind. I think that that was pretty major for him. I reported this a few months ago, but part of what drove the endorsement was, you know, Northam's relationship with Jones. He said in his statement that he's known him since he was pretty young, and has known his family, his dad. He called him affectionately, "the judge." But the other consideration somebody in Northam's camp told me is that Jones is from Hampton Roads. And Northam is very interested in there being a candidate from Hampton Roads, in the Democratic statewide ticket. And so I think Northam sort of promoting that could also help them a lot.

Brad Kutner

The biggest surprise of the decade is undoubtedly Northam's rebound after the blackface scandal. So to me the endorsement seemed like the final like brick in the wall trying to bury that topic. So I thought that was interesting. I mean, every step he's taken this legislative session, has has obviously been an effort to push back on that story. For what end? I mean, what is Northam going to run for after this? I just don't know what role the Northam endorsement serves. Mel's point about getting somebody from 757 on the ballot makes a ton of sense, especially in the context of the voters they need to get to show up to polls this November. Again, I think the biggest point of this election is going to be Democrats still afraid of the state's history of flipping the opposite way of the presidency. And when you have somebody as, for the most part noncontroversial as Biden, you can get complacent Democrats who think you know, especially after a decade of statewide wins that they don't have to show up anymore. And to get somebody from 757 makes sense because that will be a base in which the Democrats will need as many votes as humanly possible. And you know, having two white guys on the bill is is classic Virginia. But that's a fear that you know, anybody smart should have and I think Northam, I don't know who's guiding him through it, or if the state what the state parties role in it is, or if they're involved in it at all? Probably not. But I think he's got a good point about diversifying the ticket a bit more.

Mel Leonor

And just for clarity for listeners. So if McAuliffe, who's gotten probably the most prominent leadership endorsements, is on the ticket, followed by Hala Ayala, whom Northam, The House Speaker, and the Majority Leader have endorsed, and then Mark Herring, if that's the statewide ticket, those are all candidates from Northern Virginia essentially so.

Brad Kutner

I thought I saw a pool with, what what is it, Rasoul was doing pretty well for the LG. Is that is that not up to date or are you just talking about endorsements?

Mel Leonor

Just talking about endorsements. Rasoul definitely has more money than anyone else in the LGs race, I think Ayala, her fundraising numbers were not that great last month. She, in recent weeks, has gotten a lot of prominent endorsements from Democrats.

Thomas Bowman

You know, it strikes me as curious that the sitting Governor is not endorsing the sitting Attorney General. And the last Governor has not endorsed his sitting Attorney General. Certainly gives me pause as a Democrat as to well, what's the reason for that? Is this going to trip up Democratic voters? Obviously Jay Jones hopes it will. What should we be reading into that?

Mel Leonor

Well, I don't know why McAuliffe hasn't endorsed, and I just don't know if it's...Maybe it wouldn't be right for like a candidate in the primary to be endorsing right now. I don't know if that's the reason. I think for Northam he is closer personally to Jones and one thing that is worth mentioning is that Herring did call for him to resign over the blackface revelations. You know just weeks, I think it might have been just days before he said that he himself had appeared in blackface. And so I don't know that that relationship ever healed all of the way. I think certainly there are people that are way more out of favor with Northam than Mark Herring. But I just wondered if that weighed in. I know that Jones also called on Northam to resign through the Black Caucus, but I don't think he himself independently put out any sort of statement or spoke about that.

Brad Kutner

I think endorsements, I think they can matter in the primary because of how it filters down into how the local races get seen with their endorsed counterparts. But yeah, I mean, I just I don't I don't know how much weight endorsements carry these days compared to how important it is, from a fundraising standpoint, like Mel said, like, getting those bigger names behind you is a good way to get checks, which those checks can then buy, you know, the constant barrage of mailers and airtime. But you know, I'm not even sure of the success of those programs anymore these days.

Mel Leonor

On the McAuliffe question about endorsing Herring, he's been criticized a lot, or at least prodded, you know as to why he, a white man, is running. When he entered the race, he was running against three Black Virginians. And so I wonder if part of the calculation is that maybe it would be a bad look for McAuliffe himself to go ahead and endorse Herring against, who's running against a Black candidate.

Brad Kutner

To be fair, I think the only color McAuliffe sees is green.

Thomas Bowman

Well, let's get on to Mark Herring because Herring has his own list of endorsements. Here's an ad Majority Leader Charniele Herring cut for Mark Herring.

Charniele Herring

He's led on criminal justice reform and ending police violence. He's fought the Trump Administration to protect our health care. He fought and won on the Muslim Ban, on marriage equality, on Confederate propaganda. He's stood with us. For Attorney General, I stand with Mark Herring.

Thomas Bowman

So Herring endorses Herring, but she's not alone. Here's Senator Louise Lucas.

Louise Lucas

What Mark Herring has done has just illuminated what an Attorney General can do. So we need to stand with Mark and make sure that we keep him in the Attorney General's Office. There has been no one that I've known in my time in the Senate of Virginia, since 1992, that there's been anybody better than Mark Herring. I mean that, too.

Thomas Bowman

She means that, too. And Henrico Commonwealth Attorney, Shannon Taylor.

Shannon Taylor

I thought about running for Attorney General myself, because Mark showed us how the office can be a powerful force for good. And right now, the office is in good hands. So when I heard Mark Herring was running again for Attorney General, well, he's got my vote. And I hope you'll have yours.

Thomas Bowman

Interesting endorsement, considering Shannon Taylor was thinking about a run for Attorney General herself. And it looks like this is a battle royale of endorsements. So who's gonna win this WrestleMania?

Mel Leonor

I would also add to your list, House Speaker Eileen Filler-Corn. I spoke to her about her decision to endorse Mark Herring. And she said he's somebody that has a proven record of doing a good job in this office. And I think that that is what what is going to drive a lot of people. And she said that that was behind her decision. She'd worked with him a long time. And she said he was proven at his job.

Brad Kutner

Yeah, I definitely don't think your average voter is to, even knows who some of these endorsement folks are, let alone when they're supposed to vote next. So I the endorsements matter in the primary? Yes. Because like I said, I think that trickles down into how party members and how more loyal and regular Democrats choose to vote. But I just, I don't know. I mean, I feel like this is where, this is wading, this is wading too much into the reeds as far as inside baseball goes. And, you know, well, the fundraising will help, which will turn into ads, which will clog screens, and so forth.

Mel Leonor

I think it would be worth just noting that the most recent poll in the race showed Mark Herring leading Jones 42 to...with about a third of voters still undecided. I think, obviously the part that hurts Jones, there is just the name ID when you've been doing a job for you know, as long as Mark Herring has been doing it. Whether they like you or not, people know who you are.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, it's really interesting that point that before he was at 18%, he was at 3%. And the Jones people attribute that to the Governor's endorsement. So that's about 15% from a Governor's endorsement. They say all of the undecideds, since the endorsement, have broken their way. But if there's still a third undecided, I don't know how long that's going to hold because it's a lot easier for Mark Herring to get to 50 plus, and you also just need to be the top vote getter in Virginia to win, right, so there's a lot less ground for Herring to cover, then Jones after a 15% bump.

Mel Leonor

We should also just note that early voting has already started. You know, we're talking about the race as being, you know, more than a month away. But reality is that, you know, some people have already started to cast their votes. And if you know trends hold with what we saw in November, a lot of people might do so early. So I guess the timing that Jones has to expand his name ideas, that window is quickly shrinking.

Brad Kutner

I mean, I also think it's important to know that AG Herring is the face of the Attorney General's Office, and then the actual people doing the groundwork are the folks who are really moving the needle in a lot of these disputes. I heard Herring give Herring credit for her civil war propaganda. And I've been following those cases particularly well, I mean, a lot of the cases the AG is involved is involved in, and I mean, the staff there is incredible. Solicitor General Heightens is, I read it, I read and listen to a lot of court disputes, and he is an absolute joy to listen to, which I know sounds weird. I'm very boring at parties. But yeah, like, in the end, I think the thing that's will not change the most is a lot of the general mission of the AG's Office. If a Democrat keeps the seat, which they most likely will, then you'll see just good lawyering continue to come out of the Office because of the staff underneath. I mean, I don't think they talk about staffing decisions beforehand, or what the nature of the staffing is. But again, I think that's that's been the most, at least from my standpoint, from my very boring standpoint, the most impressive part of the Attorney General's Office, for me, has come from the staff below.

Michael Pope

So I'm going to take issue with something Brad just said there, which is totally incorrect. He's not boring at parties. In fact, he is the unofficial party animal of the Virginia Capitol Correspondents Association. So any predictions? I know predictions is a dangerous game. Mel, any predictions? Brad, any predictions? Thomas any predictions, before we end the podcast?

Mel Leonor

I think would be a major upset if, if Jones won.

Brad Kutner

I think Jones, Jones is younger than me. So I look forward to seeing Jones run for statewide again, and being successful. I think this is a great year for him. I like him a lot. I like his his fight. And I like the angles, the direction he's going in a lot of things. And I think the voters will too. But I think name recognition, especially in a primary, especially and it's statewide, it's going to be the most important thing right now, if Democrats want to hold that position, hold that seat. And I think the party's too nervous to try something too new after everything they've done legislatively. But I think Jones can run again, several times, as many times as needed, before we probably see him on the ballot for Governor at some point.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, I agree. I think if Ralph had wanted somebody from Hampton Roads, he should have endorsed Andrea McClellan. Because there's no one making the case, "It's time to fire Mark Herring." He's done a perfectly good job. All of the Democratic AG's serving across the United States, have all endorsed Mark Herring. That sends a pretty powerful signal to the layman.

Brad Kutner

It's a fundraising message. But go ahead, sorry.

Thomas Bowman

Sure. Like it's a fundraising message to some people and it's a cue to other people. Yeah, like I said, if Herring is sitting at 42%, okay, maybe he's getting minimal traction. But the vast majority of people who walk into that polling booth undecided, if anybody, are going to pull the lever for the person that they recognize.

Mel Leonor

I think it's worth noting that Delegate Jones has shown that he has a lot of fundraising promise. He's really kind of right there neck to neck with somebody who's been in Virginia politics for a very long time. And I think that that shows something about his promise down the line.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, but where's that money coming from? Right, like he's gotten a couple big checks from one guy.

Brad Kutner

Who's the one guy?

Thomas Bowman

Michael Bills. Michael Bills, Sonya Smith, Clean Virginia.

Brad Kutner

Oh, yeah, I was gonna say is that the environmental...

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, he's their, he's their candidate, and I don't think they're gonna pull it off this time.