Michael Town: Defending Virginia’s Clean Economy
IN THE NEWS: The Senate will vote this week on many of Gov. Youngkin's nominees, including Andrew Wheeler for Secretary of Natural & Historic Resources. Senate Democrats are posturing to reject the nomination, but can their caucus stick together?
Also, some Republicans in the General Assembly want to prohibit the teaching of "inherently decisive concepts" in K-12 classrooms, after reports emerged of some students learning about social privilege via "privilege walks" and "privilege bingo." What does that mean and what are the chances of that and similar legislation passing?
INTERVIEW: This week's guest is Michael Town, the Executive Director of the Virginia League of Conservation Voters. He's got the scoop on efforts to ditch the Clean Economy Act, leave the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, and strip the Air Pollution Control Board of the power to regulate pollution.
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Michael Pope
I'm Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
I'm Thomas Bowman.
Michael Pope
And this is Pod Virginia, the podcast that takes you inside Virginia politics.
Thomas Bowman
Later in the show, we'll be joined by Michael Town of the Virginia League of Conservation Voters. He'll give us a scoop on efforts to ditch the Clean Economy Act, leave the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, and strip the Air Pollution Control Board of the power to regulate air pollution.
Michael Pope
Yeah, he'll also give us his reaction to the nomination of Trump's EPA Chief as Virginia's Environmental Secretary. More on that in a minute. But first, this is the part of the show where we recognize our new patreons. Thomas, who have we got this week?
Thomas Bowman
This week, a big thank you to Leah Fremouw, who is our newest patron in the donor circle. We very much appreciate your support. Leah, by the way, Michael, is a co host of a podcast called, "Renegade Capital." And Renegade Capital is the activists podcast for finance and investments, and they interview thought leaders who fight against the racist, sexist, and exclusive norms established by traditional financial and capital systems. I listened to a few of their episodes, and I highly recommend it if you're seeking actionable tips and tools to use your money to create the world in which you want to live. And Michael, as if that weren't enough, Leah also works at Virginia Community Capital, a new Virginia Community Development Financial Institution, or CDFI, which has a $10 million dollar fund for small business lending, authorized by the General Assembly in 2021. I think we should definitely circle back to that in a future episode. But thank you so much for supporting us, and if you are a regular listener to Pod Virginia, consider supporting the show for as little as $3 a month. We also have sponsor and underwriter opportunities available for interested organizations and businesses.
Michael Pope
Okay, let's get to the news. This week, the Senate is expected to take up the controversial nomination of Andrew Wheeler to be Secretary of Natural and Historic Resources. The former EPA Chief for the Trump administration testified before members of the General Assembly last week, and he presented himself as someone who has reduced air pollution, and cleaned up Superfund sites, and even increased transparency in government. He also went out of his way to show deference to senators who hold his fate in their hands.
Andrew Wheeler
If I'm confirmed as a secretary, I will execute the laws that the legislature passes. I will not create new laws on my own. I know the difference between the two roles.
Michael Pope
Senate Democrats are hoping to reject the nomination, which is actually very rare. But in order to do that, they'll need each and every member of their caucus, and they might have a rogue member. Senator Joe Morrissey is a Democrat from Richmond. Now check out this exchange between Senator Morrissey and Andrew Wheeler.
Joe Morrissey
What I've heard today, particularly things that are important to me, all sound good. Why do you think you are that lightning rod?
Andrew Wheeler
First of all, I don't think the things that I did at EPA were covered very well by the press.
Michael Pope
Now Thomas, there was a lot of press bashing in the conversations with Andrew Wheeler. At one point, he told this extended anecdote about a press conference that he had at the EPA where they were announcing like grants for a school systems to get like clean power buses, and he was trying to get some news organization to come. And apparently, the news organization told the comms person at the EPA, "We're never going to write a positive news story about the Trump EPA. So I see no reason to go to the press conference." Actually, I'm skeptical that that actually happened because reporters don't actually say things like that. But um, so there was lots of press bashing. I'm going back to Morrissey here for a second. This has everybody speculating about what Joe Morrissey might end up doing. And you know who really loves this, Thomas, Joe Morrissey. He loves being in this position where he can decide the fate of everything, and everybody's eyes are on him. And I think what we're heading for is kind of an epic floor debate here, where they're going to, you know, pull his name out of the block, and then they're gonna have like, you know, the first reading, second reading, third reading, so when they get to the final vote, it's actually going to be a vote on Andrew Wheeler. All the, you know, all the D's, but Morrissey are going to line up on one side, and all the R's are gonna line up in favor of him. And there's going to be this very dramatic moment, where Senator Morrissey stands up at his desk, and gives a speech, and announces how he's going to vote. And it really could go either way. You heard from the audio just there that he has some positive things to say about Andrew Wheeler. So he might be yes. But then again, he might be a no. And so lots of drama there with Joe Morrissey. What do you make of the the Wheeler nomination? Where you think this thing's headed?
Thomas Bowman
Well, I do think that Joe Morrissey is enjoying being the center of attention while he gets to be. And you know, Michael, your guess is as good as mine. Does Morrissey come home and vote with the Democrats at the end of the day? Traditionally, he does. But he also could very well be the senator who wrecks the Democrats chances of blocking Andrew Wheeler's nomination. A couple of controversies from when Andrew Wheeler was the head of the EPA. So during the campaign, Wheeler and a few of the other environmental agency heads, were frequently touring swing states, right ahead of the election, and raising questions about whether the administration was improperly using government resources to boost the President's reelection bid. Government Ethics experts were concerned about the travel of those officials, and using them to win votes for Trump in key battleground states. And a letter came recently from 150 ex EPA officials, they worked under both Republican and Democratic administrations, and they asked the Virginia senators not to confirm Andrew Wheeler. They said, quote, "As EPA Administrator, Mr. Wheeler pursued an extremist approach, methodically weakening EPA's ability to protect public health and the environment, instead favoring polluters. Mr. Wheeler, also sidelined science at the agency, ignored both agency and outside experts, rolled back rules to cut greenhouse gases, and protect the climate, and took steps to hamstring the EPA, and slow efforts to set the agency back on course, after he left office." Those are pretty damning accusations from a bipartisan set of bureaucrats.
Michael Pope
Yeah, you know, during the the interview with the senators, I was expecting that kind of back and forth, where people would, the senators, would kind of present him with things that they didn't particularly like, and there wasn't really a whole lot of that, Thomas. I mean, Jennifer McClellan said, "You know, I wrote the Clean Economy Act. You're not going to overturn it are you? Like, what do you wand to do with the Clean Economy Act?" And and he basically said that, he hasn't really decided yet. And then one of the other senators asked him if he if he believed in climate change, and he acknowledged that yes, in fact, he does believe in climate change. So there weren't really a lot of moments where the senators were presenting him with things they didn't, from his background, that they didn't particularly like. Um, so I, I don't know what to make of that. It wasn't a very confrontational hearing with the senators. And if Wheeler really did get to make a case for himself, you know, like, he really did talk about, like, he presented himself as someone who has done all these wonderful things for the environment over his career. And he had specific examples too, it wasn't like he was just making that up. And so, I mean, I hate to just come back to Morrissey again. But that's really actually what this whole debate comes down to is, are the people who are concerned about Wheeler's past, going to be persuasive to Morrissey, or is Youngkin and his people going to be more persuasive to Senator Morrissey? I don't know, I don't know the answer to that. You have any thoughts on what Joe Morrissey might end up doing?
Thomas Bowman
I have no idea what Joe Morrissey's gonna do. But Michael, I will say that the Senate is not traditionally all that combative of a body.
Michael Pope
Yeah, that's true.
Thomas Bowman
You know, and they understand how uncommon it is for the legislature to reject an appointment from the Governor. So they could very well be just playing the long game here. The other thing I would say, too, is, if they come out of the gate, combative, then they are setting an expectation that they will stay combative, and it would set off an entire other string of events, and accusations, and tit for tat. If they present themselves as politely listening, and having a decent, humane conversation with this man, and then choose not to nominate him, they can frame it so that it does not appear to be vitriolic or partisan in nature, and rather, the Senate genuinely believed that he was not well suited for the job.
Michael Pope
Well, you know, who also has some thoughts about the nomination of Andrew Wheeler, is Mike Town of the League of Conservation Voters. So you want to stay tuned to the podcast, because you will hear his perspective later in the show. Also, in the news, the phrase, "Critical Race Theory," is perhaps as divisive as it is elusive. It does actually have an academic definition, one that we outlined in detail on this podcast last year, but that was largely beside the point on the campaign trail. Now that the new administration is taking over, the Governor's pick for Education Secretary, Aimee Guidera, is giving members of the General Assembly a better picture of what the new Governor wants to ban from the classroom.
Aimee Guidera
We're talking about inappropriate things like privilege walks, privilege bingo, putting children into situations where they're playing as a victim, and in a supremacist. Those are completely inappropriate ideas.
Michael Pope
Now Thomas, I have to admit that I had never heard of a privilege walk until she mentioned it in her testimony to the Senate Education Committee. Have you heard of this thing?
Thomas Bowman
Not referred to as a, "privilege walk." But I do recall object lessons where people were separated based off the color of their eyes.
Michael Pope
Well, this privilege walk, I had to google it, it's an exercise where students have to stand in a line, and then they take steps forward if they're in a privileged class, it goes through rounds of this sort of thing. So you might take a step forward, if you're right handed, and then you might take a step forward if English is your first language, and at the end of the exercise, after you've done several rounds, you get a sense of your relative privilege, by how far you've walked. So that's the privilege walk. Privilege Bingo is a similar thing. Pretty self explanatory, there are squares, and you've sort of, play bingo with them. Privilege Bingo recently caused a huge stir in Fairfax County where supervisor Pat Herrity tweeted a privilege bingo card, that had squares for like being white, or being Christian. One of the squares even said a military kid, which created a controversy of its own, right, so like are military kids, a privileged class? The whole exercise of recognizing and identifying privilege can be uncomfortable. Now, Senator Ghazala Hashmi of Richmond, says, schools play a very important role in teaching students to be critical.
Ghazala Hashmi
To engage with challenging ideas, which is in fact, the purpose of education, is to challenge us, and to make sure that we are made uncomfortable.
Michael Pope
Now, Thomas, the Senate Education Committee, this week, is going to be considering a bill that would prohibit schools from teaching, "inherently divisive concepts." And so there, they actually have a definition for, "inherently divisive concept," which is that, "It violates the Civil Rights Act of 1964." I don't think that bill is going to get passed the Senate Education Committee. So during all this discussion of Critical Race Theory, which we've had on the show several times, it's been this kind of empty promise, you know, "We're gonna ban this thing that's not really taught in schools, so it doesn't matter." But now, Guidera, is actually giving us a much more fulsome window into what they actually want to ban, privilege walks, and privilege bingo. She calls those things, "completely inappropriate." Is that a fair way to look at those things?
Thomas Bowman
No, it's not an appropriate way to think about that, Michael, because if you're trying to ban people from being able to think critically, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Michael Pope
Well, they would say they want people to think critically. I mean, Guidera actually said that, explicitly, in her in her comments. She wants students to be able to learn, you know, how to think critically, not what to think, but how to think.
Thomas Bowman
Right, by restricting what they can even learn in the first place, to have input on what they would be thinking, and concluding. What I would say is teach the whole damn history, the good, the bad, and the impacts down the line so that people can see how certain actions, and attitudes in history, impact other areas of the world.
Michael Pope
I think Youngkin would agree with you. In fact, Youngkin has explicitly said that, on many occasions as has Guidera, teach all the history, the good and the bad. I think that's what they say they want to do.
Thomas Bowman
And then what did they do? They put in bills that would actually prohibit you from learning any of the bad.
Michael Pope
Well this bill on inherently divisive concepts, so the critics of this bill, say, this is very broad. And so is there a danger that, let's say, slavery, slavery is a pretty inherently divisive concept, right? So like teaching about it, might, slavery is a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Clearly, right? So is teaching about slavery prohibited under the bill? I mean, these are the kinds of things the Education Committee is gonna have to wrestle with.
Thomas Bowman
And that's why this is a bad bill, Michael, is, it's plain and simple. It's not well thought out. And also, schools should be teaching inherently divisive concepts, because that's how you get new thoughts to emerge, and new ideas, and honest debate, and exactly what schools are for. Somebody from the Heritage Foundation, which is an organization that has a reputation of trying to advocate for segregation as causes, throughout the last 30, 40 years, should not be getting put in charge of our education system, which up until now, was one of the best.
Michael Pope
Yeah well, what about like, privilege walk and privilege bingo? Privilege Bingo does seem a little, I mean, I don't know, a little tongue in cheek. The privilege walk thing, though. I mean, it does seem like a pretty serious- You know, when Guidera brought this up, I asked one of the other reporters in the press room at the Pocahontas Building, if he had ever heard of this thing called, "the privilege walk." And he's pretty fresh out of college. And he said, "Yeah, actually, I took a class on whiteness in college, and we did a privilege walk." And so I mean like this...it does seem like a way to be able to identify and think about your own privilege. A lot of people, man, they're triggered by this concept of privilege. White Privilege really triggers a lot of people. And so I mean, this is the kind of thing a new administration is going to have a focus on, the, you know, privilege walks, privilege bingo. You know, as Guidera says, any situation where kids are told that they're a victim or a supremacist.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody's telling the kids that they're victims or supremacists. And the activity of a privilege walk, forces participants to confront the ways in which society privileges some individuals over others, based off inherited genetic traits. And it's designed to get participants to reflect on the different areas in their lives where they have privilege, as well as areas where they don't. And we didn't do this when I was in school, at least not that I can recall. And if we had, it- maybe it wouldn't have taken me so long to recognize my privilege, which, by the way, that kind of privilege can also be a blinder, because when that privilege promotes mediocre white men, you get really bad outcomes, or at least less desirable outcomes, than you would if you had equity focused playing field.
Michael Pope
Okay, let's get to listener mail.
Thomas Bowman
This question comes from twitter, one of our original followers, @likeigiveadamn asked, quote, "Will the House of Delegates have special elections this year under the new maps? What's the latest on this?" Well, Michael, what's the latest?
Michael Pope
Well, it looks like it's a legal question that will be determined in the federal courts. And the real question here is, does the person who filed the lawsuit, have standing to bring it? So does this guy, Paul Goldman, a very, very colorful figure, if you want to hear more from Paul Goldman himself, I would encourage you to check out a podcast, it's one of my favorite podcasts called, "The Burke Files," with Lauren Victoria Burke, she actually interviewed Paul Goleman, on one of her recent podcasts. And, you know, I have to admit, Thomas, that I've been in many court hearings, where they talk about standing, and my eyes kind of glaze over, and I'm, in my mind, I'm thinking, "Can we just get on to the merits of the case?" Like the merits of the case are like way more interesting than the standing stuff, and I just, you know, kind of tune them out when they're talking about standing. But that's actually where it comes down to here. Like, does Paul Goldman have standing to bring this lawsuit or not? And the entire fate of the potential for a special election sort of rests on that. We're kind of running out of time too, because like, if you wanted to have the special election in November, you would need to have a primary, and you know, there are deadlines for getting names on the ballot, and signatures of people to get to qualify to be on the ballot. And there are all kinds of deadlines that need to happen. And you know, it's it's like February already. Right? So like, do we even have time? Would the calendar allow a special election this year? That's unclear. And it's also unclear whether or not Paul Goldman has standing to bring the case. So it actually does seem kind of unlikely, I think. You know, a few weeks ago, a few months ago, the conventional wisdom was the, "Yeah, we were gonna have a special election." Thomas, I think that's changed, actually, in recent weeks. I think, I think the new conventional wisdom is, "No, we're not gonna have a special election, we're just gonna go into 2023. You know, and have the regular election at that time." But it would be fun to have a special election. I mean, fun for me, but I guess it wouldn't be fun for the candidates. But yeah, what's your sense of whether or not we're gonna have a special election this year or not?
Thomas Bowman
Well, I guess it'll be up to that one judge, and whether or not Paul Goldman has standing. And that is a really fascinating outcome. And I don't know if the members do or don't want to have a special election this year. There were some recent poll numbers out of Glenn Youngkin, that suggests that the Republicans are already underwater, after 10 days of governing. And if that's going to be the pace, then maybe they do want to have an election this year, but also a lot of the incumbents who got redistricted, and and as we talked about in our redistricting episode, a lot of those incumbents are looking at whether or not they can move. And if they want to move, that really compresses the timeline that they have to get all of that done, set up in place, and run a campaign. You're just going to physically run out of time before too long. And you might see a hybrid scenario emerge, as well, where they're not allowed to wait all the way until November 2023. But they have to have a special, maybe sometime in early next year, like May or so. I don't know what's going to happen on this. And I think that's what makes it so fascinating and a burning question.
Michael Pope
All right, well, let's take a break. When we come back, we'll be joined by Michael Town of the League of Conservation Voters. Now he's going to give us the scoop on efforts to get rid of the Clean Economy Act, and leave the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, and even strip the Air Pollution Control Board of the power to regulate air pollution. We'll be right back.
And we're back on Pod Virginia. We're joined by the Executive Director for the Virginia League of Conservation Voters. Michael Town, thanks for joining us.
Michael Town
Hey, thank you, Michael.
Thomas Bowman
So the burning question is what's the future of the Clean Economy Act? At the beginning of session, House Republican Majority Leader Terry Kilgore said that the new Republican majority is not interested in wholesale rollback. But then Delegate Nick Freitas introduced a bill that would, in fact, be a wholesale rollback. What should we expect from that House bill 118?
Michael Town
You know, that's a really good question. I wish I could read the future. You know, it's interesting, that I think when, not only did the Majority Leader make that statement, but I think we had heard earlier from the new Speaker of the House, Todd Gilbert, that they were going to be pragmatic, and think, not really coming after laws, like the Clean Economy Act. And, already, we've seen, I think we have between that, I think we're going to talk a little bit about clean cars, and, and the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, between those three landmark environmental policies, we've already seen 20 pieces of legislation attacking those, in part or in whole. And so I think this is going to be in, you know, the Republican Caucus in the House, I think that they're some of them are really gunning for these laws, and we're going to have to do everything we can to defend them.
Thomas Bowman
You said 20 bills, in part or in whole. What are some of the highlights of those 20 bills? Are there any that we should be keeping an eye out for?
Michael Town
Yeah, so I think you had already mentioned Delegate Freitas' bill, that's House Bill 118. That repeals numerous VCA provisions, and repeals the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, among other things, as well. There's a number of pieces of legislation that go after retiring coal plants in Virginia. And so where the Majority Leader, Terry Kilgore, had mentioned that he did not want to appeal- to repeal the whole VCA. He's actually put in legislation to repeal parts of it. Interestingly, he is the one Republican in the House of Delegates that voted for the law to begin with. And so I guess he's had a little bit of a change of heart as he's been into leadership. And Terry's an expert on these issues. He ran the Commerce and Labor Committee in the- in the House of Delegates before when the Republicans last had control. So he understands these issues well, and I think he's, you know, he recognizes, maybe, in the new political environment, that he might want to reconsider some of his past votes. Lots of these bills, these 20 bills, many of them attack certain parts of the Clean Economy Act, or certain parts of Reggie. Some of them are full out repeals. I know like Senator Stewart in the Senate side, has bills to repeal, a couple of them, on the clean cars. Stewart has wholesale repeal. So I think that what we're gonna see is, we're gonna see a number of attacks on the House side, either full repeal or in part. And then on the Senate side, it looks like there's fewer bills, but the ones at least by Senator Richard Stewart, look to be wholesale repeal of these really important environmental protections.
Michael Pope
So you mentioned the Clean Car Mandate, I want to ask about that. So when the Democrats were in power, they passed a law that puts like a mandate on car dealers, that 8% of new vehicle sales, must be zero emission vehicles. So will Republicans be able to roll that back?
Michael Town
I think that they're going to make a really good attempt at doing so. That legislation passed on party line votes in both the House and the Senate last year. The Senate hasn't changed. So we expect that there's a really good chance we're going to be able to preserve the statute as it passed last year. And, you know, it's really interesting, where 8% does not sound like a lot of cars, but it is a it is a mandate on the auto dealers. The auto dealers actually came out last year in support of this legislation, because they know that this is the future. And they already are having a hard time getting electric vehicles onto their car lot, because the cars that the electric vehicles that are sold by the manufacturers, are going to states that have these types of laws already in place. So knowing that the Virginia Auto Dealers Association, actually, like showed a lot of courage in coming out and joining us in support of this legislation. Now, there's other things that we want to get done to make sure that we have a robust, healthy, electric vehicle market in Virginia, like we would like to see rebates, so that you can get a rebate when you buy an electric vehicle. And we'd like to see more charging stations across the Commonwealth. And now we're working with our strange alliance with the auto dealers in protecting this legislation, and then also working with the car manufacturers, to see if we can get these other conditions in place, to make this marketplace really work for Virginia. And so I think because of that support, of not just the environmentalist, but actually the marketplace, the dealers, and the manufacturers, I think we're gonna have a really good shot at preserving these laws, and hopefully make some additional progress as well in the coming years.
Michael Pope
You mentioned the charging stations. I want to follow up on that. So the Alexandria delegation of Senator Adam Ebbin, and Delegate Elizabeth Bennett Parker, both have bills on this charging station, specifically, the parking spots at these charging stations, that basically, if you park there, and you don't have an electric vehicle, that you could be, you know, liable for some sort of punishment. What- explain the politics of parking a non electric vehicle, at a spot that's reserved, because there's a charging station there?
Michael Town
Sure. Now, you buy an electric vehicle, you want to be able to park and charge your car. One of the great things about electric vehicles, is that you know, when you when you go to the gas pump to fill up your car with gas, typically, of course, unless you're, you know, unless you're broke, you're filling up your tank, so you only go to the gas station when you when you when you're empty. And when you have an electric vehicle, you can charge it a little bit at a time. So you go to the store, if there's a charging station, you park in that spot, you plug in your car, you go into the store, you come out, your car just got 15 minutes of, or 30 minutes of charging, and go on to the next place. If you get to your spot, and there's an SUV parked in in the one charging spot in the in the parking lot, you're probably not gonna be too happy about it. And so with more electric vehicles on the roads, this is more of a type of problem that we're finding people running into. And I think Senator Ebbin, and Delegate Bennett Parker, are looking at ways to make sure that hey, you know, we're reserving these spots for certain customers, certain people who drive certain cars, we should respect that. And I think I think that legislation actually might might stand a chance. But it gets to, I think, the broader point of the capacity to be able to handle the marketplace. As we see more electric vehicles on the road, there's gonna be demand for more charging stations. As we put more charging stations on, there's going to be more demand for electric vehicles. We need to make sure that the marketplace, and the infrastructure, actually match up, and are keeping pace with each other, to make it so that you can go live your life, and drive your car, without having to worry about where you're going to get a charge.
Thomas Bowman
Mike, let's pivot to RGGI. Glenn Youngkin campaigned on leaving the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative known as RGGI. And now that he's Governor, he's launched a review laying the groundwork to leave the MultiState Compact. Will Virginia be saying goodbye to RGGI?
Michael Town
You know, one of the things that I think is really important for the public to realize is, is that, at least those who are paying attention to politics, and wondering, how, you know, these these bills passed, are they going to be repealed? Every single one of these laws was introduced, and supported, by one of the Senate Democrats. And so they all are working to protect their pieces of legislation. This isn't Virginia LCPs Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative. This is Linwood Louis's Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative. So that's one. So on the political side, I feel like, you know, we've got we've got the votes to protect that law. But then on the policy itself, I think this is the most important, you know, as we're looking at how do we do our part in Virginia, to help address this global problem of climate change? One of the key components to good public policy, is making sure it actually works for Virginians. And so what the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative has done for us, is by joining with all these northern and mid Atlantic states, and working together as a compact to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and pollution, we're helping public health. The second thing that we're doing, is we're generating revenue. So when power companies don't actually cut to pollution, they have to pay. And when they pay, we're taking those funds, and we're putting them to really good causes. The two things that Virginia's RGGI revenues go to pay for, the first, is coastal resiliency, making sure that the communities in Virginia, that are being impacted day to day by flooding to sea level rise, and flooding events, that those communities actually have resources to help address those problems. Virginia has billions of dollars in unmet needs to address flooding, and this fund is helping us pay to fix those problems. And then the second thing that the RGGI revenue does, is it goes to give energy efficiency programs to low income and moderate income families. And so where you have disadvantaged communities, communities where people are struggling to pay their electric bills, were able to invest money, not just to subsidize paying their electric bill, but actually to make their homes more energy efficient. So their electric bills drop in cost. And so far, in just one year, Virginia has generated over $100 million dollars to put towards those programs. Now on the energy efficiency piece, that's great, that's, that's really gonna change a lot of people's lives, and make it much easier for so many Virginia families to make ends meet. On the coastal resiliency piece, it's still a drop in the bucket of what we need, but at least it's a headstart, and we're making progress. So I think those policy benefits that RGGI is bringing to Virginia, on top of the political environment that we're facing, is going to make it a lot more compelling for us to convince those senators, that what they did was the right thing, and make sure that we can defend that. That also makes it really difficult for the Governor to be able to roll back this progress. And we hope that we're able to keep him at bay.
Thomas Bowman
One follow up to that, Mike, is Virginia's businesses need a stable policy environment to function effectively. So how should businesses be thinking about some of these retrograde policy proposals from the Republicans?
Michael Town
I think that's a really great question, Thomas. I mean, our power companies, they hate risk. They put so much financial investment in building a power grid, so that we have reliable electricity. If the laws keep changing underneath them every few years, then they're going to be making investments here, and then they're gonna have to stop, and then they're going to have to go back and make investments there. That's just really bad economics for those companies, which means it's bad economics for Virginians, because we're the ones who ultimately pay that price. And so I'm hoping that the power companies, and of course, you know, we don't always agree with the power company, in fact, up until passing these laws, we fought with them year in and year out. But I think what we have an opportunity to to do is to have one system that moves forward. In that way, there is more certainty, less risk. And that also means more businesses. So, you know, even with the Clean Economy Act, we're building manufacturing jobs in Hampton Roads, so that we can build offshore wind facilities, not just in Virginia, to help build the machines necessary to build the windmills out in the Virginia's coast. But by having that thing here, we're going to be able to export those technologies up and down the East Coast, and put high paying white collar jobs in Hampton Roads, and blue collar jobs, and green collar jobs, in Hampton Roads, bringing manufacturing here. That's good for the economy. That's good for the job market, that's going to bring other high tech companies to Virginia, all on the backs of cleaning up our environment. You add any risk to that, and those companies are going to are going to question whether or not Virginia is the right place to do business. And I don't think that that's what, whether you're Democrat or Republican, I don't think any of us want that to happen.
Michael Pope
Let's talk about the Air Pollution Control Board. Now I know there's an effort to strip the Air Pollution Control Board of regulating air pollution, which I have to say, sounds kind of Orwellian, like what's the point of having an Air Pollution Control Board, if they're not regulating air pollution? What's going on with with that?
Michael Town
You know, this this, I've been doing this work for quite a long time, I think this is the...I first started my first job in the environmental community in 1995. And one of the first fights that we fought was a project called the King William Reservoir, where the city of Newport News wanted to flood a creek off of the Mattapan River in King William County and build a huge reservoir. And with that reservoir, they were going to sell water to other localities in eastern Virginia, and environmental groups, and local citizens, and King William, King and Queen County, fought that project, and eventually won, after 17 years of fighting that project, they won. Along the way, we would get a good decision from the State Water Control Board. And when the State Water Control Board would vote right, you'd see bills at the legislature, from politicians, usually from Newport News, trying to get rid of, or remove the power of this State Water Control Board. And that's exactly what we're seeing here, decades later, just with the Air Board, where there was two decisions, one on the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, where the Air Pollution Control Board approved Virginia joining the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative. And the second decision, was when the Air Pollution Control Board, citing the Environmental Justice Act that was passed two years ago, as a reason to deny a compressor station outside the town of Chatham for the Mountain Valley Pipeline. And so politicians get angry, they're, you know, contributors get angry and say, "We wanted that permit, I can't believe you denied that permit. So let's get rid of the process that allowed that decision to be made." And that's what's happening here. And frankly, I think that's it's ridiculous. You know, Virginia has- this a great process, where we actually have citizens, experts, that are appointed by governors, and not just one governor, every governor rotates on people that they get to appoint onto this board, so that we actually have community members who are making decisions for communities, rather than just bureaucrats or politicians. And so by having those citizens on there, and then every governor being able to put their own people on, Glenn Youngkin is going to be able to shape the Air Pollution Control Board with people who think like him, and share his philosophy over time. But I guess that's not good enough, that they would rather, because whoever disliked these decisions, they feel like if we can just get rid of the Air Pollution Control Board, in their, at least their authority, maybe have them there anyway, but not actually be able to make these decisions, then we can just rest those decisions with the political appointees at the Department of Environmental Quality, than I guess they will get the decisions that they want? Well, we think that's bad public policy. We think that's a huge shift in the way that Virginia has traditionally made these types of decisions. And although we don't want- there's many decisions environmentalists have just have been disappointed with, or have objected to, that been made by the Air Board or the Water Board, we think that the process is a fair process. We think it's a very democratic process. And more than anything, it's a Virginia process, and we're going to fight to defend it.
Thomas Bowman
I've got what sounds like a silly question for you, but is a clean environment in the public interest? That sounds like an academic debate, but it has drastic real world consequences. Mike, can you explain the debate over whether a clean economy is in the public interest?
Michael Town
Yeah, that's a it's an interesting one that I think sometimes we even get confused about here in the environmental community. And I think that what you're, you know, this this term, "The public interest," is it's not just an academic term. It's actually a legal term. And so when, you know, when we, especially when you look at energy policy in the state corporation commission, the public interest is a really important factor. And so when we pass laws that deal with like solar energy, or coal, you know, coal plants, you build a coal plant. There's a coal plant in Wise County, that was famous when there was a period of time back in the mid 2000s, where the state was considering deregulating its electric sector, and they came back and decided to re regulate it. And when they did, one of the things they did is they made sure that this coal plant, in southwest Virginia, was in the public's interest. And what that did is it meant that the State Corporation Commission, those who would typically decide whether or not that coal plant should be built, part of their hands were somewhat tied, because they had to say, "Well, actually, this legislators decided that this is in the public interest." And that moved that plan forward. And often we see the same types of things happen with clean energy, where we want to show that we think that the that solar energy, not coal energy, is more in the public's interest. And so when you write these laws, how you define that, not just whether you do define it, but how you define it, and under what criteria you make those determinations, is really important. And so these are debates that go back and forth across party line, there's Democrats or Republicans who agree that we shouldn't be determining what's in the public interest. There's Democrats or Republicans that think, "Of course, we're we're lawmakers, it is our duty to determine what's in the public interest." And in the advocacy world, sometimes we think something should be, and sometimes we think some things shouldn't be. And we have those debates as well. And it's a really big factor that, you know, it doesn't at the end of the day, it doesn't determine, necessarily, whether something is or isn't built. But it definitely puts a thumb on the scale as to whether or not we think that something should be built or not. And the way that we look at it is, if it's if it's good for the public, and we think that these are policy changes that need to be made in order to address significant social issues, or to help a marketplace move in the direction that we think it should, than we might consider making something to the public interest. And I know our opponents are thinking either the opposite, but probably the same, or have the same philosophy when it comes to, you know, what it is that they want to move forward and what they what they want to block.
Michael Pope
All right, one last question, Mike Town, we really appreciate your time. So Andrew Wheeler, is this guy going to get the job or not? So during his testimony to the House and the Senate, Youngkin's pick for the Environmental Secretary presented himself as someone who would like, whose past was that he reduced air pollution, and that he cleaned up Superfund sites, and he expanded transparency. But then people on the other side of the issue, say the rhetoric doesn't match the reality. Will Andrew Wheeler end up being a cabinet secretary?
Michael Town
You know, this has been an interesting fight. And for those who don't know, Andrew Wheeler, was the second EPA Administrator for most of Donald Trump's presidency. And prior to being an EPA, Andrew Wheeler was a lobbyist. And he worked in- he worked on Capitol Hill before that. And as a lobbyist, one of his biggest clients was Murray Energy, which is one of the biggest coal companies in the country, and one with one of the worst environmental, and not just environmental records, but compliance record stay. They've been fined more than most any other polluter in the United States of America. And that's who he lobbied for. So he lobbied for coal companies, and he goes and runs EPA. And now he's been tapped by Glenn Youngkin to be his Secretary of Natural and Historic Resources. So part of his cabinet, pretty much the top environmentalists in Virginia. You know, it's funny, there were a couple things that he said in his testimony. He's, he's a slick guy. He's very talented. I mean, he has great resume. You know, if you look at where he worked, when you look at what his record is, in those jobs, it'd be it's very concerning for those who care about Virginia's environment. And I think that two things that he said today that really got at us, I'm sure that he can twist reality in a way to make himself look a little more favorable. But one of the things that he argued was that when he was at EPA, he was asked a question about Chesapeake Bay funding. And what happened during the Trump administration, was that funding for Bay Cleanup, had been brought from like, I can't remember the numbers like 70, some $73 million, all the way down to $7 million. So a 90% reduction in the Chesapeake Bay program. And he supported that, he is on record as supporting that. But you would not have known that by his testimony today, about how he talked about how much he has done to protect the Chesapeake Bay. So I think the those who have to make the decision, and I think, you know, I feel pretty confident that many of the Democrats in the State Senate are going to oppose him. I hope all of them do. I think when they look at the record, and compare his words to what his actions were, they're going to be very concerned with what he tried to convince them of, but the last question that was asked of him, I thought that was was the most amazing. Senator Joe Morrissey from Richmond, had asked him the question of, you know, you seem like smart guy, and you're really compelling, and persuasive. And he said something like, you know, "Why weren't you able to be so persuasive with the President, your boss, in convincing him about climate change?" And Andrew Wheeler tried to make it out that he and Donald Trump never talked about climate change. And here you have the top environmental official, for the President of the United States, who is while the whole time that he is in his job, they are rolling back this environmental protection. They are moving forward on this, and moving back on that, and slashing this thing about climate change, and that thing about climate change, and he tried to pull off the line that he never talked to Donald Trump about climate change. Now, maybe that's true. I seriously doubt that's true. But let's say for a moment, it's true. Why in the world not? And why is it he worked for Jim Inhofe, a U.S. Senator from Oklahoma, one of the biggest climate deniers ever? He worked for Donald Trump, who said that climate change was a hoax. And Glenn Youngkin, couple weeks before his election, he was on TV with, I think, Wavy three down in Norfolk. And he was asked about climate change. He was like, "I don't think I'm smart enough to know what causes climate change." This guy seems to connect himself with some people that don't really believe in climate change. And yet, we're supposed to believe that Andrew Wheeler is gonna come into this job and do everything he can to protect Virginia's environment. I think that there's a lot more to this. I look forward to having these conversations with the Democrats to make sure that they get the truth and facts about his record. Because I think that when they see these facts, they're going to be deeply concerned. And I think that his his nomination is in trouble.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, there's a lot of young voters who believe that climate change is the only issue that matters. So I imagine, Mike, that we're going to have a lot to say on this issue in future episodes. So thank you so much for your time here, Mike Town of the Virginia League of Conservation Voters.
Michael Town
Michael, Thomas, thank you so very much for having me. I look forward to coming back.
Michael Pope
Thank you for listening to this episode of Pod Virginia. Transcriptions are by Emily Cottrell, satirical spots are written, performed, and produced by Steve Artley. Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts and hey, consider writing a review on Apple podcasts. It really helps people find the show. We'll be back again next week with the next episode of Pod Virginia.
Steve Artley
Pod Virginia is a production of Jackleg Media LLC.
