Chris Saxman and Beck Stanley: How Lobbying Works
IN THE NEWS: Glenn Youngkin is vetoing over two dozen bills, which is more than any recent governor in their first year. Democrats say they were blind-sided and that the Governor cares more about politics than policy.
Sen. Adam Ebbin (D-Alexandria) wins the award for most bills vetoed - nine. He says its retribution for voting against Andrew Wheeler's nomination for Sec. of Natural Resources. The politics of revenge is not unheard of in Richmond, so what comes next?
Finally, we discuss what the bills did that Youngkin vetoed, such as Del. Cia Price's bill to give local governments the authority to crack down on slumlords and another bill from Del. Nadarious Clark (D-Portsmouth) that would have created a statute of limitations to collect medical debt.
INTERVIEW: Chris Saxman, Executive Director of VA Free, and Beck Stanley, Director of Government Affairs for the Virginia Agribusiness Council. The power duo are part of a team that teaches a class on lobbying at the University of Richmond School of Professional and Continuing Studies. If you've only ever seen Schoolhouse Rock's explanation of how a bill becomes a law, you may not have a complete picture of how it works. The people who lobby state government aren't exactly corporate fat cats--the interests they represent are as diverse as the subject matter expertise required to advocate effectively for a bill. Saxman and Stanley provide an introduction to how lobbying works and what it takes to become one.
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Michael Pope
I'm Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
I'm Thomas Bowman.
Michael Pope
And this is Pod Virginia, a podcast that's so popular, it can override any veto.
Thomas Bowman
Later in the show, we'll get a master class in lobbying from Beck Stanley and Chris Saxman. They're two lobbyists who teach a class at the University of Richmond School of Professional and Continuing Studies, and they joined us to teach Lobbying 101. It's a little different show than we typically give you. But we know you like to hear from people who make the sausage, and so stick around for that, because you'll get to hear directly from the sausage makers, themselves.
Michael Pope
Yeah, they talk about books that they teach in their classes, they talk about concepts that they teach to people who want to be lobbyists, you know. Thomas, this is a growing industry. And year after a year, we see more lobbyists in Richmond, which means we need more professional training, and classes like this one, that Beck Stanley and Chris Saxman teach.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, you know, I've always been somebody who says, "Well, if you don't like the fact that there's deals getting made in a closed back room, then you need to increase the number of people who are in that backroom. Right?" So if you're worried about some, you know, highfalutin, powerful lobbyists? Well, the solution is to have more of them, and have more interests represented in the backroom negotiations.
Michael Pope
One other point about lobbyists that I think is often overlooked is when you say the word, "lobbyist," people automatically have this vision in their head of the well heeled lobbyist, from the major firm that has a lot of money. And they don't think of, for example, like the Virginia Poverty Law Center has a lobbyist. And, you know, the City of Alexandria has a lobbyist, and lobbyists are often the experts, and the people that you go to with the questions. And oftentimes, Thomas, as you well know, they actually write the legislation. So it's super important to meet lobbyists on any topic that you're working on, and get a sense of who they are and what their interests are, which is why we frequently feature lobbyists on our show.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, so stick around for that. It's definitely worth listening to.
Michael Pope
Okay, let's get to the news. Governor Glenn Youngkin, is vetoing more than two dozen bills. Now to put some context on that, that's more vetoes than recent governors had in their first year in office. Bob McDonnell had zero vetoes his first year in office. McAuliffe had 10 vetoes, and Northam had 20 vetoes in his first year. So Youngkin is coming in strong with his veto pen. And some Democrats are not happy, especially considering they felt like they were blindsided by all these vetoes. Here's audio of Senator Scott Surovell talking about one of his bills, the Governor unexpectedly vetoed.
Scott Surovell
That bill went right to the legislature, nobody objected. The industry stood up repeatedly and said they were okay. Administration had people in the room. Nobody said they had a problem. The bill passes both chambers. And magically a veto appears. You know, the way this process is supposed to work, if you have a problem with the bill, you bring it up during session, so you can talk about it. Maybe you can make some adjustments. Maybe you can make some changes, maybe you can find a consensus, because we work together to try to reach good policy.
Michael Pope
So governors are not required to work with lawmakers during the session. But the point that Surovell was making there is that, you know, why didn't the people who are representing the Governor and the Governor's Office stand up in these committee meetings, and explain what their issue was? And most of these bills you had somebody from the Governor's Office there in the room. They did not stand up and voice objections to many of these bills that the Governor ended up vetoing. So when the vetoes actually were announced, Thomas, this took a lot of people by surprise. What do you make of the strategy here of the Governor and the Governor's people, blindsiding all these lawmakers?
Thomas Bowman
Well, I don't know how much of it is strategy, and how much of it is just pettiness. You know, normally, someone from the Governor's Office would testify for or against a bill and explain the administration's position, if any, and if the administration says, "We don't like this bill," the legislature, they're going to decide right then and there whether or not they're going to send it to the Governor and pass it or not. And, you know, when your own party has a majority or minority, like they would probably just kill it, right? So this is not done. It's clearly rubbing a lot of important people the wrong way. And the other thing tied to these vetoes is actually no reason at all. So usually the governor is going to provide some kind of, even veiled legitimacy, in their reason behind making a veto, but this governor is ham handed. He's just doing it out of pure pettiness and spite, especially when it comes to Adam Ebbin.
Michael Pope
Well, yeah, the speaking of Ebbin, he won the award for, "Most vetoes." I think there were like nine bills of Senator Ebbins that were vetoed by the Governor. And so Senator Ebbin was part of a press conference where he was asked about that, like, "Why is it, do you think, the Governor vetoed so many of your bills," and this was his reaction.
Adam Ebbin
He seems to take issue with people who voted against his nomination of Trump EPA Administrator, Andrew Wheeler, to be the Virginia Secretary of Natural Resources, which is why I think he vetoed so many my bills.
Michael Pope
Alright, so the politics of revenge is not unheard of in Richmond, and many actions, actually, can be explained this way. Democrats are certainly not above exacting revenge on their rivals. So this is not a, sort of, one party issue here. What do we make of Youngkin, rejecting so many of Ebbin's bills, perhaps, perhaps motivated by the fact that here's the Chairman of the influential Senate Privileges and Elections Committee, who oversaw the rejection of a key member of Youngkin's cabinet?
Thomas Bowman
I think the Governor needs to be really careful here. Because what goes around, comes around. There are a lot of things that legislators can do, that they deliberately choose not to do, because they don't want to burn each other's houses down, because they're, they're all in it together, right? And so, yes, you can, for example, pull every single bill off the uncontested calendar, and force the patrons to explain it, force debate on the bill, and just gum up the works, and slow it down. And you can do that to be petty, you know, to sometimes people you don't like, but the other side can also do it to you. Right? So it might be a while until Democrats are in a position to be able to respond proportionally, but they will respond.
Michael Pope
All right, well, overriding a veto takes a supermajority in the House, and also in the Senate. And that means a bill like Delegate Cia Price's bill, giving local governments the authority to crack down on slumlords, well, that bill probably will not be able to overcome the veto. It would require a whole lot of votes, she would actually need to pick up votes that she did not have in the session. And that seems probably unlikely. But then again, there's other kinds of bills, like, there's one bill from Delegate Nadarius Clark of Portsmouth, that we talked about on our podcast a couple of weeks ago, he has a bill that would create a new statute of limitations on medical debt. It's a three year statute of limitations. Wildly popular, it passed with overwhelming majorities in the House, overwhelming majorities in the Senate. Plus Delegate Clark tells me that he actually worked with Republican Attorney General Jason Miyares on the bill, and it still got vetoed. So how are Republicans actually approaching this idea of the veto session? You know, because, you know, Delegate Clark will be asking for a vote on overriding his veto. So you're gonna get Republicans who are probably going to change their vote, they're going to move from a yes to a no, so that they don't override the veto, and make the Governor angry. So my colleague, Jhad Khalil, he talked to Republican Delegate Tony Wilt of Rockingham, about how the Republicans are approaching this veto session, and this is what he told Jhad.
Tony Wilt
We'll take it issue by issue and...but that's, you know, you got to be honest, that's kind of a hard lift, to undo what the Governor's done. But if it's that important to the whole body, then we'll see how that shakes out.
Michael Pope
Yeah, we'll see how this shakes out. And I'll be watching the vote on this Nadarius Clark bill to create a new statute of limitations for medical debt. One of the, "no," votes was Republican whip, Michael Webert. Now he'll need to persuade 23 House Republicans to change their vote from a yes to a no. And look at this list of people who voted in favor of this- to Nadarius Clark bill, it includes Speaker Gilbert, he's going to need to change his vote, Majority Leader Kilgore, he's going to need to change his vote. Now, I'm pretty sure that that's what's going to end up happening, all these Republicans are going to switch their votes. But the end process here is they're going to do that to avoid, you know, insulting the Governor. Meanwhile, people in danger of being harmed by medical debt, are going to get screwed. Is this any way to run things?
Thomas Bowman
Well, look, what the Governor has done is hand Democrats a really easy and popular campaign issue, because their own people, Republican voters, are also in medical debt, especially in rural hospitals. So yes, it's rare for a veto to actually even get overwritten, because the threshold of two thirds majority in both chambers, is an incredibly high bar to meet.
Michael Pope
It hasn't happened since McDonnell was Governor.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, and I actually pulled up that story. So the last time the General Assembly overrode a veto, was when Bob McDonnell tried to veto a bill on medical malpractice caps. And that increased the state's cap on medical malpractice awards from 2 million to 3 million over 20 years. And Republican delegate, at the time, from Fairfax Dave Albo said, "It gives predictability, it's only a two and a half percent increase, and it's pretty darn good solution." So he was willing to go Buck his own party leader, but this puts Speaker Gilbert and Republicans in a very awkward position, because on the one hand, you want to be somebody who sticks to your word, right? So if you say, "I'm gonna vote for the bill," you vote for the bill. If you say, "I oppose your bill, I'm gonna vote against it," you vote against it. If the whole legislature supported a bill, unanimously, now, the majority party in the House, and a significant minority party in the Senate, have to now vote against this popular enough bill to have gotten through, in many cases, unanimously. So that's going to be easy campaign fodder, in some cases, for Democrats to beat Republicans up. And so Glenn Youngkin, not knowing what he's doing, or not caring, and being willing to burn it all down, you know, this is not good, long term, for the Virginia Republican Party. This sets a really bad precedent. And there's other balls in the air because the Senate and the House Budget negotiators are trying to come to a resolution on what to do with this budget. And Senator Janet Howell from Fairfax said something to the effect of, "This has set the budget negotiations back quite a bit." I don't know if it's a threat. I don't know if it's just a statement of fact, but the reality is, like the Governor doing this, really just blew up anything that they might have had an agreement on.
Michael Pope
Hmm, interesting. All right. Well, I want to end our discussion on the vetoes on a comic note. So some of the Governor's vetoes did not seem to be all that well thought out. Check out this audio from Senator Dave Marston explaining his reaction to the Governor's veto of one of his bills.
Dave Marston
The Governor's arguments against the bill were based on the introduced bill and not the amendments that were made by both the House and the Senate as it went through the process. They just went back to the introduced bill to make their arguments for vetoing the measure, which is, you know, really kind of strange, and it shows you the level of effort that went into this.
Michael Pope
So what do you make, Thomas, of the Governor's veto explanation for Marston's bill being aimed at the original version of the bill and not the version of the bill that landed on his desk?
Thomas Bowman
I think that the story is one of two things, and possibly a combination of them. Either, the people writing these explanations for the Governor's Office don't understand how to read LIS, and admittedly it's not the most intuitive platform, or the second option, they care more about the politics, than the policy itself. And one of those reasons could be Glenn Youngkin, is trying to audition for Vice President.
Michael Pope
Clearly, I think he looks in the mirror and sees a President of the United States, and the Governor, it seems to me, has lots of people around him who are telling him, "You can do it, you can do it. You can do it." And yeah, I think a lot of his actions are kind of aimed at being somebody on the national stage, and not. necessarily, doing what's best for Virginia. That's certainly what Democrats are accusing him of.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, and we didn't really get into it in this episode, but the Governor also had many small amendments to the bills. And so those actually could, potentially, get overwritten because it only takes a simple majority, or 50 plus 1% to do that. And let me give you an example of just how petty some of these amendments were. So there was a bill to provide restitution to a person who was wrongfully convicted. The Governor removed a single dollar from that sum. The Governor amended a bill, that was passed without controversy, by taking away $1 from a person who was wrongfully convicted. That is how petty this man is.
Michael Pope
Alright, before we go, let's get to some listener mail. Now, some of our listeners, were interested in, Thomas, something that you said about the gas tax holiday on one of our recent podcasts. You said, quote, "A gas tax holiday is a targeted attack on the parts of Virginia that did not vote for Glenn Youngkin, because it cuts funding for public transit and rail in urban areas." And then you said, "This is a handout to the fossil fuel interests." Well, that prompted some discussion on Twitter where @NeenaMoorjani said, quote, "Absolutely fascinating that he," meaning you, Thomas, "that he comes up with that rationale, I've never heard the R's make such a reference. To me, it's a populist move, easy for the Republican base to understand." So Thomas, when you look at the gas tax holiday, I would actually have to agree with this Twitter user, this is easy to understand. This is the kind of thing that speaks to the base. What do you make of this debate on the gas tax holiday?
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, well, I mean, she's absolutely right. Of course, the Republicans aren't making any such reference, because most people, if you're not Donald Trump, are smart enough to not say the quiet part out loud. And yes, the Republican base does understand this. And we also said in the past episode, that the gas tax does hurt people who live in rural communities, where you have to drive a lot to get to your job. So as far as a populist move goes, yeah, that's the pretext, you know, that's exactly what Glenn Youngkin is counting on, is that he's hoping people see it as immediate relief at the pump. But we know that the true story is a little bit more nuanced and complex than that. And so, you know, to dismiss that, when we know that what this gas tax holiday will do is pull funding from public transportation in Virginia. I mean, it's intellectually dishonest to even pretend like anyone would think it's innocent.
Michael Pope
All right, well, let's take a break. When we come back, we'll get a master class in lobbying from Beck Stanley and Chris Saxman. They teach a class at the University of Richmond School of Professional and Continuing Studies, and they join us, next, to give us a crash course in Lobbying 101. We'll be right back.
And we're back on Pod Virginia. And it's time for class, get your notebooks out, and sit down at your desk students, because you're about to get a master class in Lobbying. We're joined by the power duo who's part of a team that teaches a class on lobbying at the University of Richmond School of Professional and Continuing Studies. We're joined by the Executive Director for Virginia Free Chris Saxman. Thanks for joining us.
Chris Saxman
Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.
Thomas Bowman
We're also joined by the Director of Government Affairs for the Virginia Agribusiness Council who started this course at the University and who, many in the media, seem to know. They even named him, "The Sergeant at Arms," for the pressroom at the Pocahontas Building. Although we were not able to fact check that. Beck Stanley, thank you for joining us.
Beck Stanley
Thanks so much, Mr. Bowman. Mr. Pope. Thank you for having me.
Michael Pope
All right, class is in session. So as a reminder, folks, we've got some books on the syllabus, and I want to go through them and talk about why they're important to understanding the art and the science of lobbying in Virginia. First up is, "The Three Languages of Politics: Talking Across the Political Divides," by Arnold Kling. Another book on the syllabus is, "Words That Work: It's Not What You Say, It's What People Hear," by Frank Luntz. We also want you to pick up the 1936 classic, "How to Win Friends and Influence People," by Dale Carnegie. Okay, Chris Saxman, let's start with one of these books, the Arnold Kling book, which describes three tribal coalition's in American politics, the progressives, the Conservatives and the libertarians. The author says, "It's important to be fluent in these three languages of politics." Why is it important to learn to talk across the political divide?
Chris Saxman
Well, it's not necessarily across the political divide, it's appealing to the people who are in politics, and you're trying to influence them in languages, they understand. The conservatives, Mr. Kling's thesis is, they are trying to protect civilization from the barbarians. Progressives, on the other hand, are trying to lift the oppressed from the oppressor. And libertarians are trying to protect against the coercion of the state. And if you can, if you can change your language, or shift your messaging to appeal to those base instincts within the conservative, progressive or libertarian thinking, you can be more persuasive with your particular issue or legislation. And it's getting in their lane, if you will, versus coming at them with language that they just don't understand and thinking that just doesn't, that they can't take back to their districts and go, "Oh, this one resonates with me because it's going to help the oppressed in my district overcome the oppressor," or, "This is going to protect our civilization from further destruction from the barbarians," and you put those in those actual words, but in words that tap into that, that deep, almost in the marrow, DNA thinking, that people have.
Thomas Bowman
Okay, I'm curious about the book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People," which I read in high school. This is a depression era book written by Dale Carnegie, who was teaching a class on public speaking. It's, essentially, a book version of his class, which humorist Sinclair Lewis once described as, "A method to teach people to smile and bob, and pretend to be interested in other people's hobbies, precisely so that you may screw things out of them." Charles Manson said he used what he learned from the book in prison to manipulate women into killing on his behalf. Beck Stanley, what's the deal with this book?
Beck Stanley
Wow, what what a question, Thomas. I'm not surprised to hear that. It's a it's a powerful text. And it's one that, I believe, it was published, initially, in the early 30s. And just like the skills that are being taught in this class, they can be used for good, and they can be used for bad. And while we try to steer folks toward toward the good, some folks do end up in Northern Virginia, hard to wonder. But that, really it's about that helping people, and being genuine, and sincere, in your work, and knowing that what you're lobbying is, is is a good cause, we try to instill that in our students through this text, because when you're genuine, you're taken as authentic. And when you're authentic, you're trusted. And that trust is a vital part of this career any career in advocacy. And Carnegie really taps into that in that text.
Michael Pope
All right, well, let's move on to the Frank Luntz book, "Words That Work: It's Not What You Say, It's What People Hear." It has chapter titles like, "The 21 Words and Phrases for the 21st Century," and, "The 10 Rules for Successful Communication." It explains why pharmaceutical companies ditch the word, "treatment," in favor of words like, "prevention," and, "wellness." Chris Saxman, why are words so important, and how can they be used, tactically, as weapons?
Chris Saxman
Well I don't know if it's, necessarily, about weapons, but they're certainly a vehicle for communication. And to the end you seek, the right words you use are absolutely critical. I like to tell our classes, eventually, on issues when you're trying to come up with strategies and tactics, you're gonna have to get down to about five words. If it can't fit on a bumper sticker, and you can't have it resonate with someone that quickly, you're gonna be in a very difficult spot because there are so many other words that are that are attacking the conscious level thinking of so many people, you have to cut through things with very specific words, and we can take recent examples of campaigns, regardless what you say about Donald Trump, "Drain the Swamp," and, "Make America Great Again," those are great words, those are great taglines. Hillary Clinton's, "I'm With Her." That was one of the stupidest examples of trying to influence people who are in the campaign, and you know, Barack Obama was brilliant, "Hope and Future," and he was just brilliant at conveying, and taking words, and having them resonate with you. And that's that's what made him a powerful speaker, and they...we've had so many examples over the years- Morning in America with Reagan, Man From Hope, you know, Bill Clinton, the hope is is a continuing thing for the Democrats. And it's a very powerful one, and you use those, and you can use them well, and convey them well, you're going to be more successful and more persuasive in your profession if you're trying to advocate for certain things, and advocate itself, is not necessarily lobbying. It's if you break it down in Latin, it means it means, "To call forward." It means to bring forward someone's thinking, to call toward your position. And we try to emphasize on what the goal of advocacy really is, it's not to, you know, everyone has the Jack Abramoff model of lobbying. It's quite different when you're, you're lobbying for the Cancer Society, or the Humane Society, or for, you know, disabled children. The words still are very, very important to resonate with your target audience.
Beck Stanley
Yeah, and, and the power of language in this profession and what we teach in the class, it can't be overstated. Just recently in Virginia, Governor Youngkin and his campaign masterfully rehashed the spirit of Beloved Community, which is a Bonhoeffer philosophical, religious idea that Martin Luther King tapped into later, and most recently, the Governor, successfully, using this campaign, and in the transition and just like that, those rehashes of Reagan slogan to Trump's when what Luntz talks about in the text, is how, essentially, powerful language can be reused over and over and over again, for companies, campaigns, and in your daily communications. And Luntz even explains in that book, how to talk yourself out of a speeding ticket, and I've used it, it works.
Thomas Bowman
I'm gonna have to read that book. Because I do have a lead foot. All right, but let's talk about your class at the University of Richmond School for Professional and Continuing Studies. It's ostensibly about lobbying, but I get the sense it's about something more, essentially, that everything is about persuasion, persuading a university to pay you for teaching a class, or persuading lobbyist professors to appear on a podcast to talk shop? What kind of personality traits make for a really good lobbyist?
Chris Saxman
Personality traits? You know, hard work, discipline, focus, integrity.
Beck Stanley
Integrity is at the top of the list, I mean, being genuine and authentic and being able to be trusted every year. That's, that's skill number one.
Michael Pope
I would say the word, "integrity," is not the first word that you would get out of people, if you say, "Describe a lobbyist."
Chris Saxman
Without question. They're...because they work with so many people so closely, you, you have to be able to trust the person with whom you're dealing. There was, when I first came to legislature, we were told that the lobbyists, you know, they're not what you think. They are subject matter experts. They are here working on behalf of clients, many of whom live in your district. And they have they'll have multiple clients, and you'll use them for multiple sources of information. But you- there are those who are very trustworthy, and most of them will come in, the good ones, will come into your office and say, "Here's the bill. This is what we say about the bill. And here's what our opponents say about the bill. Ultimately, it's a policy decision. And it's your decision to make. But here's why we think our position is the right one."
Beck Stanley
Two traits that we that we really push, and try to instill in the class, are being able to network, and build relationships, and quickly develop subject matter expertise. That's why lawyers are such good lobbyists. They're really good at condensing and reading a lot of information very quickly, and then forgetting it and moving on to the next issue. So those are those are two, as well.
Michael Pope
I'm wondering about trends in the industry. So some organizations have in house lobbyists, like Beck, I think you're in house lobbyist, right? And then other organizations hire contract people from these big firms like McGuireWoods, or Williams Mullen, or one of those. Beck, I'm wondering what the trends are in the industry? I feel like in recent years, I've seen a lot more lobbyists wandering around Capitol Square. Is this an industry that's blowing up?
Beck Stanley
I don't think it's blowing up, so much as people are realizing that you need to have someone down there on your behalf, because you never know how the law can can change very, in a very small way, that the everyday person might not notice. And they can have drastic impacts on entire industries. Some associations and companies like to have a reliable presence, an in-house lobbyists who is there, year in and year out, working on the same issues. Other companies face very niche issues that require a subject matter expert, just for maybe one or two years. And so the contract angle makes sense in those situations. And then you've got folks who specialize in in the grassroots, and grassroots organization, and then you've got others who who have carved out social media lobbying, influencing, developing and generating third party expressions of support or opposition. There's a wide array of lobbyists out there and they will all cash your checks, I promise you.
Chris Saxman
I think the growth of the industry, or the growth of the people involved, in not necessarily lobbying per se, but also Government and External Relations is growing because of the complexity of, of their industries, the involvement of government at the state, local and national level, necessitates, I mean, I would advocate for businesses, if you have over 50 people, you should have someone in your organization dedicated to government relations, and that, whether that means registering to lobby, there's just so many things you need to be aware of that will impact your business, or your organization, that it should take some professional expertise in this area. But it's also, you know, I think a lot of businesses are walking past a lot of opportunities to take advantage of changes in the law. I would sit there and committee or subcommittee going, "Oh, my God, I wish I was in this industry, I would kill it." What these guys are trying to do with this legislation. And it's not necessarily was good policy, or bad policy. But you see the door opening to just an incredible array of possibilities. Yeah, there's a lot of opportunity out there, in this space. You're not just mitigating downside, but there's also an opportunity upside.
Michael Pope
Okay, one final question on relationship building. Now, this seems like the kind of thing that's not really an academic pursuit so much. It's the kind of thing you learn by witnessing other people do it. How do you teach somebody networking skills?
Beck Stanley
We talk about that a lot. And it's really about seizing networking opportunities, seizing opportunities to get out and meet people, and taking the time to stick around Richmond, stick around Downtown, you know, a few extra hours after the last committee adjourns, to get to know people in social settings, beyond at the Capitol. You know, I think it's, it's, it's not something you can teach. But I think it is just being a genuine person, and understanding, and spending the time to get to know someone and what your friends care about, what they're passionate about. But also, it's easy to go too far. And a lot of times, you know, people know that a lobbyist and a legislator are really good friends, it's really easy to call them out on the conflict. And so you can go too far with it, as well.
Chris Saxman
The fact of the matter is developing a relationship is just taking an interest in the other person and vice versa. And, you know, working in one relationship, you have to if you have to work with a person, you probably get to know him. And, you know, most of the people that that are in legislature, or work on the legislative side, professionally, you know, they're very interesting people, they're very intelligent people, you know, the the vast, vast majority of them are well intended, interesting, intelligent, but it takes time to develop relationships. And unfortunately, what happens more and more in the lobbying world these days, is they- you get siloed up with people from your own party, and you really miss an opportunity to get to know people and be more effective, because like, oh, you know, the Democrats, you know, they'll send this Democratic lobbyist to go take care of that Democratic legislature. And that's how certain lobbying groups will carve up the work, assuming that there's a political connection there. But you know, far more effective ways to develop a personal relationship with with people so you get to know them, and that happens for legislators, too. So often, we'd be in a meeting, whether it was a caucus, or a committee meeting, subcommittee, and they would talk about someone wanting a bill and something passed and they say, "Well, that's all that's all that person wants is X, Y, and Z," because they read it in the newspaper, or somebody made a floor speech, or whatever it was in the political context. And I'd say, "No, no, no, that's not what they want. What they really want is X, Y, and Z in their district." They're like, "Well, how do you know?" because like, "Well, because I asked them and I listened." And you know, when you get to know somebody, you can understand what they truly want, they truly need. And that's part of the the interesting element of politics. It's just, you know, it's a fascinating field.
Beck Stanley
And it's something that our other, some of our other instructors, that I'll give a shout out to Rob Shin, Stephanie Kane, Chelsea Bennett, excellent lobbyists. They're all really, really good at building lasting friendships with, not just legislators, but other lobbyists. And so when it comes time to build a coalition with other industries, they're connected in all these other industries that you need to really add a lot of heft to your efforts. And so it goes both ways. It's not just the elected officials, but your fellow colleagues, as well.
Thomas Bowman
Alright, we're running out of time for this episode, but I want to give you an opportunity for any final thoughts, or to say something that we didn't cover yet. Chris Saxman, why don't you go first.
Chris Saxman
Lobbying is an honorable profession. It has gotten a lot of bad press, ostensibly because of bad things that have happened to the industry in North in Washington, D.C. Jack Abramoff, the scandals and whatnot, it's regulated. There's really good people in there. There's always bad actors in any industry, but lobbying itself is is important because everybody has a lobbyist, and sometimes three and four acting on their behalf, and they don't even know it. And that's one of the funnier, funnier things to consider, is the simple things you do every day. There's typically a lobbyist behind that industry, whether it's at the grocery store, or the gas station, or the homebuilders, or the realtors, there's, there's just a connection to you so many levels, not just within your own profession, and it's incumbent upon you, and frankly, all citizens, all Americans, to be aware of the democratic process, and to know who's representing you. If you want to be more effective, reach out to those who are working on your behalf.
Thomas Bowman
Beck Stanley, any final thoughts?
Beck Stanley
Absolutely. Thank you all so much for having us. And just just to close, you know, our students go on to lead in this field. We have some former students who are doing things bigger and better than I ever will. And it's so it's so heartwarming to to see them up there in Richmond and D.C. And now we're also accepting students from other states, because the class is now virtual. And so if you're listening, take a, take a look at our website. Richmondspcs.richmond.edu Just- or google, "University of Richmond grassroots lobbying," and check it out. We'd love to have you.
Thomas Bowman
All right. Well, that's our show today. Chris Saxman and Beck Stanley, thank you so much for this Lobbying 101 session. And for more information, check out the website for the University of Richmond School of Professional and Continuing Studies. I'm Thomas that's Michael. This has been Pod Virginia.
Michael Pope
Pod Virginia is a production of Jackleg Media. Our Producer is Aaryan Balu. Our Social Media Manager is Emily Cottrell. And our Advertising Sales Manager is David O'Connell.
Thomas Bowman
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Michael Pope
We'll be back next week with another episode of Pod Virginia.
