Jahd Khalil: What Are the Sticking Points of Budget Negotiations?
Jhad Khalil is a journalist with WTVF who’s reported on the disagreements between House Republican and Senate Democratic budget negotiators. We explain the big sticking points, such as money for schools and cuts to the investment into the Affordable Housing Trust Fund. However, localities offer teacher contracts in April, and they’re pressuring legislators to cut a deal- even if it’s a bad deal- with the promise of budget certainty. Generally, the Senate budget includes more funding for services and the House budget wants tax cuts. Where do you come down?
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Michael Pope
I'm Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
I'm Tom Bowman.
Michael Pope
And this is Pod Virginia, a special session that does not cost $46,000 a day.
Thomas Bowman
Michael is, of course, talking about the cost to the public of the special session that started last week. All 140 lawmakers got a per diem that's about $200 each, plus gas money to and from the Capitol for a session that lasted fewer than two hours, and it accomplished...Well, what did it accomplish, Michael?
Michael Pope
That's a good question, Thomas. What did the opening day of the special session actually accomplish? To help us answer that question, we're joined by a reporter for Virginia Public Radio. He's the only journalist, I know, who can tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the beef industry. Jhad Khalil, thanks for joining us.
Jhad Khalil
Thanks for having me. I do try to keep my beef info, beef facts, to a minimum when I'm talking to vegetarians like yourself, so I will keep keep that out of the pod.
Michael Pope
You don't have to worry because I don't have a beef about beef. Okay, Jhad, so you were there for all the drama last week. Let's begin by reviewing what actually happened during the special session. Okay, so that was just a joke, but, only sort of, because Governor Glenn Youngkin called lawmakers to Richmond to finish the budget that they didn't get done during the regular session. So that's was- that's why we had a special session. But he can draw the horse to water but he can't make them drink. In other words, he can call everyone to Richmond, but he cannot make them agree on a budget. And that's why last week's opening day of the special session did not amount to much. On the House floor, House Appropriations Chairman Barry Knight says House Republicans are still working out their differences with Senate Democrats.
Barry Knight
The budget negotiations are ongoing. We are talking to them a little, bit back and forth. They're kind of taking their time, and we're ready to meet anytime that they are.
Michael Pope
Okay. So Jhad, why on earth did the Governor called lawmakers to Richmond when there was no indication they were anywhere close to cutting a deal?
Jhad Khalil
You know, Youngkin gets asked us a lot. You know, when I've seen him respond to this, he says that he's disappointed in the pace at which people were working. You know, I was at an event where he said that he was especially upset with how, or disappointed with, how much progress they made the week before lawmakers came back to Richmond. And, you know, I think legislators are probably not very happy that Youngkin, you know, call them back, especially Democrats, because this is kind of their thing. You know, the budget is something that the legislature does. They do get recommendations and a proposed budget from the Governor in this case, it came from the last Governor, Governor Ralph Northam, but you know, they're the ones that actually have the final say on where the money goes and where it comes from.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, you know, Michael, I interpreted this special session as Youngkin getting a pretty tough lesson on how the separation of powers works. And the Virginia legislative process behind governing, which is intentionally deliberative. They don't move fast. And, you know, I can see why a CEO, who's used to the private sector, would want to speed things up. And because he's got a ton of money, he can afford to, you know, try to do what he did with the commercials and berate them, and shame them into coming back. But the reality is the negotiators for the House, and the negotiators for the Senate, I think it's a combined 10 people or so. They're the only ones who actually get to decide, and yes, the Governor is going to have a representative in those negotiations too, but it's not up to him, the Governor doesn't get a vote. So he's really wading into territory that he shouldn't have waited into, frankly.
Michael Pope
You know, I forgot about those commercials. I'm glad you brought them up. So there were a series of television commercials that aired on TV markets all across Virginia, that basically said, you know, "Call your lawmaker and have them agree to the budget that the Governor wants." You know, that's very rare for, like a campaign style commercial, and the strategy that doesn't seem to have been all that effective.
Jhad Khalil
Yeah, I think that they're, they're going at their own pace. And I think one thing that is interesting about the legislators being brought back for a special session is that this is a, you know, right now that there's a House budget, and there's a Senate budget, and those don't line up exactly. So what they have to do is they get together and will negotiate behind closed doors in a conference committee. And, you know, that doesn't have a-
Michael Pope
You mean a secret closed door, not open to the public, not open to the press, conference committee where they make all their decisions in secret? Is that what you're talking about Jhad?
Jhad Khalil
I think something similar to that, yes. But the fact that it's- there, there's a special session going on, where, which is, you know- what's great about session in Virginia is like people can come to the Capitol, you can see lawmakers, and that sort of thing. But now we kind of have this, kind of, pseudo session, where there's, you know, we're technically in session, but it's in recess so the legislators aren't there. There's not there's not meetings, there's not hearings, has just kind of this thing that's kind of happening in the background, up until, you know, whenever the legislators decide that it's time to come back and start debating the budget, and then we'll get some insight into what's going on. But the budget is also this really huge thing. And, you know, the differences between the budgets is a is a big thing that we have to consider. You know, us as journalists, it takes a lot to go through things. It's kind of a difficult process, if you don't have a lot of experience, looking at budgets, amendments, fiscal impact reports, which come with bills that have some sort of money involved. So it's kind of like the negotiations are a lot for us to get a handle on. And I think, probably for the negotiators, it's probably, you know, a lot for them to go through, too.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, Michael, we should get into exactly what they are disagreeing over.
Michael Pope
Yeah, well, Jhad mentioned that the House and Senate budgets didn't quite match up, they weren't aligned. And the difference between the two is about $3 billion. So House Republicans want to spend most of that surplus money on tax cuts, while Senate Democrats want to spend most of the money on services, things like raises for teachers, or investments in the Affordable Housing Trust Fund. So that's, essentially, where things were when lawmakers left town last month. And it's actually the exact same place as when they arrived back in town for the special session last week. And it's also essentially where things stand right now at this hour. But Senate Democrats may be running out of time. Here's Senator Barbara Favola of Arlington, explaining to reporters why the clock is ticking.
Barbara Favola
Local school systems actually offer their teacher contracts, usually in April, and they'd like to have some assurances that this- there is a state budget when they offer the contracts to the teachers. So I expect there'll be some, let's just say, momentum, coming up from the grassroots that will encourage the conferees to come to an agreement.
Michael Pope
So, theoretically, members of the General Assembly have until June 30th to cut a deal, and it wouldn't be unheard of for them to wait until the last possible minute, which is, that's exactly what happened when Tim Kaine was governor, they had like a few hours before the final deadline. But as Favola pointed out in that sound clip you just heard, House and Senate members are also hearing from their local governments to cut a deal now, even if it's a bad deal, a deal that's actually on paper, is better than not knowing when they'll have the final numbers, you know, and like the uncertainty involved in that. Jhad, do you get a sense that there's any sense of urgency among lawmakers with this budget?
Jhad Khalil
You know, I'm not really sure. I think, you know, like you said, it has to be done by June 30th, which is the end of the fiscal year. Governor Youngkin seems to, certainly, wish that it's, you know, done as soon as possible. I think politically, it's kind of an interesting moment, because, you know, these are negotiations that are happening, but that involves money, in a lot of ways you can kind of think about politics, as, you know, the art, or kind of the, the the fight over how resources are divided. And what do we decide is, you know, worth certain amounts of money? And, you know, I think it's, it'll be interesting to see once the budget is finished, what kind of policies that we see being announced. Because, you know, it seems like Virginia politics is a little quiet at the moment. You know, I think there's a big pace since Governor Youngkin was elected did that. And then there was a session, o we have- the regular session, that is, there's a lot going on. I think that the Democrats in the Senate are signaling that they're not too worried about figuring it out. Senator Adam Ebbin, said after the special session went into recess that, that he wasn't too worried. And this is what he had to say.
Adam Ebbin
It's a negotiation process. It's not the same as the regular committee process where you're voting on a bill. And I think we will come to a conclusion in due time. This is not the first time that we haven't had a budget achieved during the regular session. So it's not that unusual an occurrence. But we're confident that we will come to an agreement.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, and we should probably go over some of the more specific things that they're fighting over. But in sum, what the Senate budget does, as Michael said, has some services in it that the Republican budget from the House actually zeroes out. So $270 million for K through 12 support staff, $200 million for at risk schools, $49 million for police, $27 million for gun violence prevention, these are all things that are not in the House Budget, or are significantly cut in the House Budget. And of course, the Republicans want to cut $125.7 million from the Affordable Housing Trust Fund in the middle of the pandemic, which has been a backstop for Cares Act money. My point in saying that is, you know, there's not a lot to negotiate over if you're a Senate Democrat who usually the Senate gets its way in budget negotiations. These are unacceptable proposals, especially when we have the money.
Michael Pope
Well, you know, on that issue of when we have, you know, the Virginia, right now, is flush with cash because there's this record historic surplus. It's interesting that the delta between the House Budget and the Senate budget is $3 billion, when you look at the dollar amount for the surplus is like 2.6 billion. So it's basically the same, right? So really, what they're arguing about is how do we spend this surplus money? Do we spend it in tax cuts or services?
Jhad Khalil
I think what's interesting about this is that, you know, you see some, especially progressive Democrats, that are arguing that there's actually...it's not a surplus, it's that we haven't been spending as much as we should on certain programs. And I think it just, it's not only the budget, like the gas tax is something that's being discussed a lot in the budget. And that comes, that's something separate from the general fund, and the kind of- with this story of Virginia being seeing unprecedented revenues, you know, that has a lot to do with what we thought we were going to get, and the budget writers ability to kind of predict what's what's going to happen, and, you know, I don't really envy them because the pandemic was something that caused so much uncertainty in all sorts of planning. And now, you know, that's we're kind of seeing that in the budget process, too.
Michael Pope
Well, one of the biggest debates is about education spending, because in many ways, Virginia schools never really recovered from the last recession a decade ago. Spending, per student in Virginia, ranks toward the bottom of states, hovering between Mississippi and Missouri. The Senate has more than $200 million more for high poverty schools, and 38 million more for early childhood programs. Chad Stewart at the Virginia Education Association says one of the key distinctions of the Senate budget is that it has a 5% increase for teachers, whereas the House Budget has a 4% increase.
Chad Stewart
That might sound like a small difference, but it's actually a 20% pay cut, or salary difference, between the Senate and the House budgets.
Michael Pope
Now, that's a really important point to keep in mind, because when you hear people talk about a 4% difference versus a 5% difference, that sounds like it's a small difference. But then if you actually look at it from the perspective of the teacher, the Senate is giving you a salary that's 20% larger than the House budget. So it's actually a huge deal if you're a teacher, Jhad, how much do you think money for education and education spending in general, and teacher raises, in particular, how much do you think all that debate is factoring into this ongoing debate over the budget?
Jhad Khalil
Yeah, I think when you think back to the election, the governor election, that is, in November, you know, education was something that Terry McAuliffe, who was running as the Democratic nominee, you know, had as his, you know, one of his early issues, and that kind of, you know, Youngkin really made that a really big thing. And he's been saying that, "We want the biggest education budget." So it's interesting that, you know, I think both parties would like to have, kind of, an ownership, or be able to claim a victory on education. So I find it interesting that it's kind of, you know, we're seeing like how far people are willing to go. And this is, like you said, it's another question of like, how much they want to spend? And it's important to remember that these are long term promises, you know, it's not like you can cut teacher salaries without there being a big impact, and there being blowback, especially given that Virginia, you know, frankly, has a pretty poor comparative salary for, for teachers around. And this has like long term fiscal impact, because, you know, you want to be able to not only like, give people raises, but you know, to stay competitive, you're going to have to, you know, give cost of living increases, and that sort of thing to, to actually, like, have a healthy reimbursement and compensation for teachers, which is, you know, I think everybody would say that teachers are one of the most important jobs, not just for the economy, but for science, society, culture, all those sorts of things.
Thomas Bowman
I'm actually married to someone who's a classroom teacher for several years. So I can tell you a little bit about what the job of a teacher requires. And of course, that's all before the backdrop of COVID, and having to ask them to do even more than they've, frankly, never done before, as far as remote education goes or, or working in hazardous conditions. So, you know, the average salary, across America, is almost $61,000 a year, nationally, and Virginia's is not quite at that average level. So in a situation where we've also experienced 7% inflation, just in Q1 this year, the difference between an 8% more funding versus 10% more funding, subtract 7%, from the underlying, because that's just keeping pace with inflation. And so if we think about the budget as a moral document, right, what this document tells us is that the value of teachers is that, "Oh, well, you're important enough to consider for a pay raise, but we don't want to pay you the market rate. And we want to give you a marginal improvement on inflation." But here's what we're asking of teachers, we're asking of teachers to come in and expose themselves, in situations where little kids are not able to get vaccinated yet against COVID, and support staff, custodial staff, are very much at risk populations for the virus. We ask teachers to pay their own money for most classroom supplies, over a certain threshold. And it's always over that threshold. And you got to have the classroom supplies, right? So the teachers are cutting into that, already miniscule, amount of money that they get, because if you go in some places, it's like $35,000, a year in like Washington County, Virginia. And then, of course, with the rise of school shootings, we're also asking teachers to sacrifice themselves for their students, and we're not compensating them with hazard pay. We're not compensating them with extra expense budgets. There's no other job in America, where the person is on salary, and has to use their own money to pay for the things to do their job.
Jhad Khalil
You know, teachers are really burnt out across the Commonwealth from, you know, everything that's been going on. And I don't think we really know like how much, you know, experienced teachers were going to lose. But I think signs are pointing to that it could be higher than we think.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah. Did you see that Pew study?
Jhad Khalil
I did. And what what did that say?
Thomas Bowman
So Pew did a survey of teachers, nationwide, and one in four say they will quit, not are thinking of quitting, they will quit after the school year.
Jhad Khalil
Wow. In Virginia, it's also this thing with some of the policies, and kind of policy preferences, that the Youngkin administration has expressed, in terms of, you know, there was the tip line, there was, you know, diversity, sort of, basically, like all the things regarding how the history of racism is taught in Virginia schools. I mean, from from conversations that I've had with with advocates for for teachers, kind of surrounding some of this legislation and policy, they're saying that could contribute to some of the teacher loss, too.
Thomas Bowman
All right, well, we could go on with this for a long time. So let's take a quick break, because when we come back, we're going to talk about the gas tax holiday, the budget debate on affordable housing, and we'll also take a couple questions from listeners. We'll be right back.
Michael Pope
And we're back on Pod Virginia. Let's talk about the gas tax holiday, how Virginia's gas tax was created back in the 1920s as a way to finance construction of roads that would handle infrastructure improvements for all the new automobiles that were used at the time. Now, 100 years later, it's become a heated political issue. Republicans campaigned, last year, on delaying an increase to the gas tax. That idea failed to gain traction in the Senate this year, when Senate Democrats said that money was needed to finance transportation projects. Now, Governor Youngkin is calling for a three month suspension of the gas tax. Stephen Farnsworth at the University of Mary Washington says the gas tax is much more visceral than other kinds of taxes.
Stephen Farnsworth
Higher gas prices hurt people, people really notice it. It is so much more visible attacks than what's withheld from your paycheck. As a result, politicians have to be acutely sensitive to gasoline prices.
Michael Pope
So I think a lot of people, when they go to the gas station, and they see the price of gas constantly rising, they might say to themselves, "Yeah, gas tax holiday, that sounds good to me, I want to pay less money for gas, I want a gas tax holiday, I want a holiday." Jhad, do you think the Governor is onto something here? Do you think he's gonna get what he wants with the gas tax holiday?
Jhad Khalil
I'm not really sure what, you know, what the chances of this making it through is. The Democrats in the legislature have expressed a lot of resistance to this idea. But, you know, I'm not really familiar with a lot of like completely ruling it out, because it might be a really popular sort of policy. I think that a lot of people have this idea that when the gas taxes cut, that that means that they automatically will be able to see savings come to them. But our colleagues at the Richmond Times Dispatch did some reporting, where they look back at gas tax changes in Virginia, and that the prices didn't really change so much. The Youngkin administration has kind of pushed back against this, they released some news reports that were citing AAA numbers that said that in Maryland, that gas prices dropped a lot after they suspended their gas tax in Virginia, it stayed the same. I think an interesting thing that could happen, too, is, you know, a lot of these gas prices were driven up by developments in Ukraine, you know, there's still this COVID thing going on, which is like, you know, we tend to catch ourselves saying that the pandemic is over, or regressing, but it's really, you know, it's still very much around, and that there's a lot of uncertainty that comes there.
Thomas Bowman
Yes, and the gas tax, itself, is slightly complicated and nuanced, as far as what we think about it. But what is known is that suspending the gas tax, 30% of that, at least, goes into the pockets of the oil companies. And because you've already shown that you're willing to pay what you are for gas, well, that's how the free market works. And so those 26 cents that are no longer being collected by the state to fund public transit infrastructure projects, will just go straight into the pockets of oil companies, while they keep charging you the exact same amount and, and more impactful than the gas tax, are the rising costs of things like rent, medical care, and food, which are, you know, if you've gone to the grocery store, recently, those things are through the roof. Getting hamburgers costs, you know, almost $20 now. The price of milk is over five bucks now for a gallon. So these are things that hurt people way more than a gas tax. And, you know, there are better ways to fund it. Now, on the flip side of that, Michael, gas taxes hurt rural drivers and commuters, because those are the people more likely to be driving in the first place. And so there is a need for some sensitivity. But I think where I come down on this one, personally, is that the government needs better revenue mechanisms than a gas tax, period.
Michael Pope
So Jhad mentioned, the folks- the reporting that was done by the Richmond Times Dispatch, I also saw some numbers that were put out by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, as well as the Commonwealth Institute. I mean, actually, there does seem to be a significant amount of research here to say the savings from this gas tax holiday will actually not go to Virginians, it's going to the oil companies, it will go out of state drivers. So that's the sort of wonky Egghead view of this that's looking at the details and studies. However, there is also the sort of gut reaction that people have about the gas tax holiday, and having a holiday, a three month suspension, of the gas tax and how people, politically, might respond to that. And this idea seems really likely to get out of the Republican controlled House. In fact, I'm even hearing some House Democrats might vote in favor of this thing. Thomas, this is a political question to you. What do you make of the Senate Democratic Caucus? Are they going to hold against this and reject it, or do you think some Senate Democrats might actually end up voting in favor of this and making this a reality?
Thomas Bowman
Well, as far as compelling the Caucus members to vote for or against it, it's going to be like herding cats, and not that easy to compel them one way or the other. One potential outcome, because the House Democrats know that this is something Republicans want, and because there are some of their members who might be willing to vote for it, then you try to negotiate that for something you want in that Senate budget. And, you know, this is what these negotiators are hammering out right now. And, you know, wherever they come down on it is where they're gonna come down on it. But, you know, whoever votes for this gas tech suspension is unlikely, in my opinion, to come from Northern Virginia, or an urban area, which is facing these deep cuts to their public transit.
Michael Pope
Well, another interesting debate here on the budget is about how much money to invest in Virginia's Affordable Housing Trust Fund. This is a Trust Fund, it was created back in 2013, with a relatively modest investment of a few million dollars. That grew over time, and by the time former governor, Ralph Northam, left office, and submitted his final budget proposal, he was calling for a historic investment of $300 million into the fund. Kim Bobo at the Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy says large scale investment is needed because of the scale of the problem.
Kim Bobo
Everybody understands that we have an affordable housing crisis. And yet, when we got the historic monies from the American Rescue Plan, the big federal dollars for helping with infrastructure, not a penny was put toward building affordable housing.
Michael Pope
So it's worth pointing out that the Affordable Housing Trust Fund was created by a Delegate Alfonso Lopez, who is a fan of the podcast and very careful listener. So if we fail to point out that Alfonso Lopez created this fund, we would definitely hear from him. So shout out to Delegate Lopez for creating the fund, that's, clearly, been wildly successful, so successful, in fact, that Republicans actually want to spend $110 million in this budget on affordable housing. So that's a lot better than where things were in 2013, when this Fund was created. Meanwhile, though, a JLARK report recently pointed out that the cost of actually addressing this problem, would be like closer to $5 billion a year. And that's not in anybody's budget. So this is actually comes down to a debate of Republicans want to invest $110 million into the fund, Democrats want to invest $300 million into the fund. Jhad, do you think that advocates for affordable housing will get what they want this year?
Jhad Khalil
You know, there's something with housing that I think is really interesting. And this ties into some of the bigger policy debates about, you know, climate, and things like that. So there's this Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, which is this thing that sells carbon for, basically, permission to pollute, and then the money goes into other investments. And one of those investments is affordable housing. So this could go into building new, energy efficient, affordable housing, or it could go to making housing more affordable by weatherizing, or adding energy efficiency, and those sorts of things. So, you know, bringing your utility cost down to that makes it therefore, more affordable. And that Reggie, as this Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative is known, is something that is not in the House Republicans budget, because they were counting on repealing it. And Governor Youngkin wants to do that, also. So this money is something that, I think, is going to be negotiated a lot because there's probably a willingness, on the Republican side, to not spend that money because at least it weakens the benefit of having- having Reggie around. And, you know, it could also be seen as kind of like a roundabout way to to repealing it. But you know, Senate Democrats are really into Reggie, it's a really important program, in terms of like, a way to reduce carbon emissions, and also funnel those funds that, you know, are funded through the program, to to make Virginia more climate resilient in a lot of ways. Yeah. So that's something in terms of affordable housing that I think is an interesting kind of piece of the budget and Virginia policy, generally, these days.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, and, Michael, I need to correct a misstatement I said, Republicans cut $125 million dollars from the Affordable Housing Trust Fund. The Affordable Housing Trust Fund was $125 million last year. So the Republican proposal to put $100 million into the Affordable Housing Trust Fund represents a significant cut in the middle of an era where we need it as a core function of government services. It's worth pointing out that according to that same report, every $1 invested, creates $15 of economic activity for the state to recover in other taxes elsewhere. So this is a worthy investment for government. So even if they did have to end up spending $5 billion to fund everything the way JLARK said it would, you know, you're talking about 15 to one return on that investment, and that sounds like a good deal to me. And, you know, the other thing I'm gonna say, is that for every project funded right now, there are three to seven projects, per region, not funded. And the developers will not build those, unless they know that they're going to be able to at least recover their investment. And that requires funding these projects. So the other thing is this is an important component to homelessness. Addressing homelessness requires prevention grants for localities, Direct Relief, etc. And these are all things that the full funding in the Senate budget, would be able to cover.
Michael Pope
Okay, before we go, I want to dip into the mailbag and respond to some listener engagement. Our last episode with Chaz Nuttycombe on those court-drawn Senate Maps was a doozy. We got a ton of feedback on the show, which will probably end up being one of our most popular episodes ever. During the episode, Chaz talked about Delegate Lashrecse Aird's first primary, back in 2015. Now, Chaz wasn't sure if she had a competitive primary or not. But listener, Tavares Spinks pointed out that in fact, she had a very competitive primary. There were like five candidates running in that primary. So thank you Tavares Spinks for correcting the record. And hey, speaking of that episode, one of the races we talked about, was Senate District 33 in Northern Virginia. That's the epic race between Delegate former Delegate Hala Ayala, and former Delegate Jennifer Carroll Foy. Now I got a press release, last week, from the Ayala campaign that pointed out a ton of endorsements for Ayala, including Senate Majority Leader Dick Saslaw, former Congressman Jim Moran, the Mayor of Herndon, the Sheriff of Alexandria, and many many other elected officials. What do we make of this list of endorsements? Thomas, this race, I think, as you pointed out in our last podcast, is going to be- I forget what you called it, like a steel cage match?
Thomas Bowman
Battle Royale.
Michael Pope
Battle Royale. I mean, like, this is gonna be one hell of a race.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, it's interesting because it is, is Chaz pointed out in the previous episode, it is kind of, the only primary where we see a test, and battle, between ideologies. But I've always said that any individual endorsement on its own doesn't really matter. And nobody's voting for somebody, generally, because Congressman Jim Moran, or or the Alexandria Sheriff Sean Casey, endorsed this person. But the effect of these, what was it, like 50 endorsements or so, what that effect is going to have is it's going to make the donor class hesitant to contribute to the other candidate, in this case, Jennifer Carroll Foy. And so Jennifer Carroll Foy is going to have to rely on grassroots donations or a wealthy benefactor, completely funding their race. And of course, the problem with that is, those donations are, slightly, representative of who's willing to vote for you. And again, not everybody who might contribute to that race lives in the district, but people who are participating in the local Democratic committee are going to see this list and say, "Okay, that's who we're going with."
Jhad Khalil
Yeah, I think it's also interesting with this, with these two candidates, you know, these were both really prominent people in the primaries, during the Democratic primaries last year. You know, Hala Ayala ended up winning the primary for Lieutenant Governor. Jennifer Carroll Foy had been- I forget how many- she she was a relatively new delegate, and she ended up being this like, really prolific fundraiser, in terms of the entire field. Kind of interesting to see this matchup as a kind of like the echoes of what we were seeing, and what Democrats thought the future of their party should look like, in the last big election.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, by the way, Michael, in Northern Virginia, it's very much the home of the establishment, not just for Virginia, but for all of America, really. So Northern Virginia, for whatever it means, is Terry McAuliffe country, and Terry McAuliffe, I guess, is going to have a bit of an axe to grind against somebody who dared to run against him, and in his mind, potentially weaken him going into the general election, and cause him caused that opening for Glenn Youngkin to win. That may or may not be true, but I can see a world in which Terry McAuliffe, behind the scenes, will be leaning on people not to go in for Jennifer Carroll Foy and will do everything you can, as far as whatever capacity he's comfortable making known publicly, to get Hala Ayala elected. Alright, that's all we've got time for this week. Jhad Khalil of Virginia Public Radio, thanks for joining us.
Jhad Khalil
Thanks for having me.
Michael Pope
Pod Virginia is a production of Jackleg Media. Our Producer is Aaryan Balu. Our Social Media Manager is Emily Cottrell. And our Advertising Sales Manager is David O'Connell.
Thomas Bowman
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Michael Pope
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