Chaz Nuttycombe of CNalysis joins Michael to run through the list of state Senators and Representatives who won't be seeking re-election next year, and why--from redistricting to spending more time with family, next year's General Assembly will look starkly different from the one we've come to know.

Episode Transcript

Michael Pope

I'm Michael Pope. And this is Pod Virginia, a podcast that is nowhere near retirement. But so many members of the General Assembly are retiring that we've got to talk about them, and we've got the best guest to do this. He's the founder and Director of CNanalysis Chaz Nuttycombe. Thanks for joining us.

Chaz Nuttycombe

Thanks for having me on.

Michael Pope

All right. So there are so many retirements I've been keeping a running tally of them. And just as I think I've got my tally complete, there are more people announcing retirements. So this is probably an incomplete list that we're going to talk about today. And I would imagine even after this podcast is up; there will be more retirements. So this is not a complete list, but it's definitely one worth chewing over and thinking about, especially as it relates to campaign 2023 Because a lot of these people are retiring because they don't want to lose reelection. Chaz, let's start at the top Senate Majority Leader Dick Saslaw is leaving after almost half of a century in the General Assembly. He says that he's closing the book on his career that began way back in the House of Delegates. He was first elected to the House of Delegates back in the 1970s. And then moved over to the State Senate, where he worked his way up the seniority ladder and is now majority leader Chas Nuttycombe. What do you make of the retirement of Majority Leader Saslaw? And what does that say about his District and the Northern Virginia politics there?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Back in 2019, the primary that I think everyone was really looking at on the Democratic side was the primary that Saslaw was getting from Yasmine Taeb. A challenge from the left. The big issue, there was Saslaw taking Dominion money, but there were other issues that his opponent was running to the left of him on. Now he won that primary, but very narrowly. And I remember this would have been just a few months after the election when the General Assembly was in session. I ran into Senator Sasslaw. And I remember asking him if he was going to be running for reelection. And he said, no, no. And then he said, well, kinda stopping himself and saying something like, I'll be leaving the door open.

Michael Pope

Yeah, he's been telegraphing this for a very long time. I remember last year on the Senate floor, he basically said, I won't be coming back and was like, there was no equivocation about this. I mean, despite the fact he's only recently made the retirement, he's been telegraphing this somewhat explicitly for quite some time.

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah. So it's been a long time coming. I think everyone knew that 2019 was his last reelection, especially with how close of a primary he had. It'll be interesting to see who runs for a seat. Probably will be someone a lot younger. There are a lot of people in Northern Virginia, and the delegation has so many open seats and retirements. It's going to have a whole new face. And this seat is just part of that equation.

Michael Pope

That's why we're doing this podcast, actually, because so many people are retiring; it's really important to think about these names and their faces and the absence they're going to leave in the General Assembly. So aside from the Democratic leader, the Majority Leader in the Senate, also the Republican leader, the Minority Leader, Tommy Norment, is also leaving after three decades in the Senate. He's currently the leader of the Senate Republican Caucus, but he told the Richmond Times Dispatch that he wants to spend more time with his family and go back to teaching at the College of William and Mary. So, Norment found himself in a very awkward position after those new redistricting maps where he's in the same District as Senator Ryan McDougal. And Chaz, I imagine there was some discussion about what a Norment versus McDougal primary would look like. Right?

Chaz Nuttycombe

I was kind of skeptical about whether it would actually happen. But man, that would have been fun to watch. McDougal is from Hanover County; this District stretches all the way from Matthews County to Hanover County in the eastern part, where Mechanicsville is. It pretty, pretty much would have been a very divided primary. Originally, I think McCougal would have won, New Kent, and Hanover, obviously. While Norman would have won James city, county, and Gloucester, I think there's a part of King and Queen County in this. So that would have been really interesting to see. But it's good to hear that we'll see both parties being led by fresh faces come 2024 in the new general assembly for both parties.

Michael Pope

Yeah, that's a good point in the Senate, we're gonna have a new Senate Democratic leader and a new Senate Republican leader, and we don't know who the majority one is going to be or the minority one. So it's everything is up in the air here.

Chaz Nuttycombe

I mean, I'm no expert on this caucus politics. But I would think, at least on the Democratic side, perhaps Senator Lucas would maybe be interested in that, but I don't know.

Michael Pope

I've heard talk about the potential for a Scott Surovell Democratic leader. I've also heard some talk about Mamie Locke, a potential Senate Majority Leader. So I think there is clearly some internal caucus politics that are happening behind the scenes right now.

Chaz Nuttycombe

And there's gonna be, again, new Democratic senators, that we don't even know who will be entered in the Senate on the Democratic side.

Michael Pope

That's a good point. We can't really do a whip count right now because you don't know who's gonna vote.

Chaz Nuttycombe

Exactly, exactly.

Michael Pope

So next on our list is Senator Janet Howell, a Fairfax County. So one of the most senior members of the Senate, she's Chairwoman of the Senate Finance Committee, you don't get a more top ranking position than that. She's retiring after more than three decades in the General Assembly. And the episode earlier this week, you might have heard that she was an aide to a Delegate back in the day, and people were trying to persuade the Delegates to run for Senator, and he said, I'm really I'm inline to be the chairman of the Appropriations Committee, I might even be the Speaker of the House. So I won't run. Former legislative aide Janet Howell said, well, I'll run for the seat. And now she's like one of the most senior people in the Senate. But those redistricting maps gave her a problem, which is that she was roped into a senate district with Senator Jennifer Boysko. So what were the political dynamics that were playing out there?

Chaz Nuttycombe

A lot of these retirements are coming from notice people who are kind of up there and age, like Senator Howell, who were put in the seats with fellow caucus members. And there are a lot of new territories that some of them have been given. And rather than fight one of their fellow caucus members, they're looking to pass the torch to a younger generation. You're getting some seats like that. Or Ken Plum, that's that's another one wasn't; I don't think he was put into another seat with anyone else. But, just one of these members of the General Assembly who's just kind of up there and age, but especially incentivizing for those who are up there in age, and have been placed into a district with a fellow in common to not seek reelection.

Michael Pope

Well, next on our list is another senator who was roped into another incumbent, Senator John Edwards of Roanoke. The Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, he has been in the Senate a long time, since 1996. But he's not seeking another term after those redistricting maps put him in a Senate district with Senator David Suetterlein. So you would have had incumbent Democrat John Edwards versus incumbent Republican David Suetterleine; that would have been one heck of an election. Chaz, what were the political dynamics playing out there and Senator Edwards's decision not to seek reelection?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, the new districts are a lot tougher for him. The previous District that he represented went to Biden by double digits, the District that was arguably a Democratic gerrymander going from Roanoke to Blacksburg not saying that I think there isn't a fair configuration that connects Roanoke to Blacksburg. But the point is the new District went to Donald Trump by 0.2%. That and again, he's roped into a district with Suetterlein. So he's up against a fellow incumbent. Now most of the territory in this District, if I recall correctly, actually did belong to Edwards. But again, he's almost 80? Again, this is one of those things where you've gotten an older incumbent versus a younger incumbent put into a new district. So that's part of his decision. But a big part is the new partisanship of the District. This is going to be a district that we have rated as very likely Republican. So a Democrat has a 1 in 10 chance of winning the District. I can see an argument for a solid Republican, just because it's really hard for me to see, especially with Sutterlein being the only incumbent now, a Democrat winning this District. But for now, that's pretty much where we're going to have that seat.

Michael Pope

Yea, you got to feel for all these senators who have spent all this time and effort building their careers. And then, all of a sudden, they find themselves in a district that is leaning in the opposite direction facing a popular incumbent who's going to clearly swamp them in the Fall election. I would imagine the choice was probably pretty obvious for Senator Edwards. The choice was not as obvious, though, for the next person on our list. Senator Jill Vogel of Fauquier County. So Jill Vogel was the Republican candidate for Lieutenant Governor back in 2017. So that was the year that you lost to Justin Fairfax, who, of course, became a Lieutenant Governor. But Jill Vogel outperformed all the other Republicans on the ticket that year in 2017. So clearly, she's a very popular Republican, a moderate. She was not roped into any other multi-member districts; I feel like she probably could have easily been reelected; I actually did have a chance to ask her about her decision. And she said, basically, after almost 20 years in the General Assembly, that it was time to move on and do other things with her life. She is, I will have to say for the record, a very prominent election lawyer, so like, if you're in Republican circles, and you're looking for an election lawyer, you're going to hire Jill Vogel, and she makes a lot of money. She, I'm sure, would be making a ton more money as an election longer than she would be spending her time in Richmond.

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, and I will know that this is another one of those districts where the partisanship did change a lot. Vogel's old District was a very solid Republican district, going from Winchester to Fauquier, and now it is a district that is in Loudoun and Fauquier. It went to Trump by, I want to say, at least 20 points in her old configuration, and the new District she was put in went to Biden by 13 points. We've got this District as a toss-up; the Republicans have got a really strong candidate here.

Michael Pope

Who's the candidate?

Chaz Nuttycombe

I'm trying to remember his last name; it's Paul Sigor? I can't remember his last name. I know it starts with an S., But he's the son of some billionaire. So he's going to be a self-finance candidate, most likely, not that the wealthiest County in America, Loudoun County, that's really going to be much of an anchor to a Republican candidate.

Michael Pope

And ground zero for all of the culture wars over schools, and what books are available in public schools and the transgender athletes, you know, competing and sports and like all of that actually has really blown up in Loudoun County. And you know, it's if you watch Fox News, you certainly hear a lot about the Loudoun County School Board.

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, you especially heard about that in 2021. You know this is the District that goes along the Potomac. It's not like the other District in Loudoun County, which is a lot more suburban. This one's kind of suburban and rural. But it's not like Republicans because, again, this went to Biden by 13 points. So I think another reason why Vogel is retiring, but you know, incumbents won't really mention this when they retire, is because of the new configuration that the District, you know, she's never run in a competitive state legislative district. She's running a competitive statewide race, but I want to say that would probably be at least some part of her factor in not seeking reelection. And again, you know, a lot of new territories for her.

Michael Pope

And then just recapping here, our list of Senators leaving their Dick Saslaw, Tommy Norman, Janet Howell, John Edwards, Jill Vogel, and there may be more I'm moving over to the house number one delegate can plumb the longest serving member of the House of Delegates says he will not be seeking reelection if you heard our podcast from earlier this week. You heard a lot of the discussion that I had with Delegate Plum last week, telling me about his career in politics. And Chaz, I thought this was interesting. He says it was a mistake for him to run for reelection in 21. He feels like he probably should have let things lie where they were. Because, from his perspective, he got to see the full spectrum of what it was like when Democrats were in power, and then what it was like when Republicans took control, and then how Democrats changed things when they took power, again, after 20 years being out of power. But then, you know, after 21, from his perspective, all that progress started being rolled back. So he kind of regrets actually the last two years. He feels like he really could have gone out on top if he had retired in 21. But not one of the members who's retiring because he's in some sort of competitive District with other incumbents. I think the District clearly would have gone for him again; what do you make of the retirement of longest serving member of the House of Delegates, Ken Plum?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, well, nobody likes to be in the minority. So you can't really blame Ken Plum for saying, man, I wish I stepped out, you know, on a high note.

Michael Pope

Alright, so our next few retirements are significant because they are chairmen of committees. So if you think about the next House of Delegates, it's going to have a lot of new faces. And it's also going to have a lot of new committee chairs. So let's start with Rob Bell, chairman of the influential Courts of Justice Committee, previously the Chair of the Virginia State Crime Commission. He was first elected back in 2001. And he announced his retirement on the House floor. Chaz, What do you make of Rob Bell? He's got this Charlottesville district. What do you think the politics were there behind his decision?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, well, his little District was a Republican gerrymander, and now it's a solidly Democratic district. So that's his reason for retiring. But funny enough, I pointed this out. I want to say it was even in the 2000s that the District that has pretty much now been enacted under the new lines of District 55, which we moved from very likely Democratic, representing a 9 in 10 chance of going democratic to solid democratic, which means there's greater than a 99% chance of going democratic after Bell announced retirement. Pretty much the exact same District existed in the 2000s, I believe, which is when I think Bell was first elected. But anyway, so the same District existed before, and they chopped it up. They split Albemarle county three ways in the 2011 Republican gerrymander for the House of Delegates. Bell's old district in the 2020 presidential election went to Trump by single digits; the new one, which has the remainder of Albemarle County and parts of Nelson, Louisa, had Biden by 21 points. Again, the old District did exist pretty much the exact same in the 2000s, if I recall correctly, and at the same time, though, Albemarle County was not as blue, it's shifted rapidly leftward. And so now, this is going to be a solid democratic pickup with Kellen Squire. He ran for the House of Delegates back in 2017. And Amy Laufer, who ran for the state senate back in 2019, is facing off.

Michael Pope

Alright, the next name on our list is delegated Roxanne Robinson, a Republican from Chesterfield. So she served in a lot of senior Republican positions. He's currently the chairwoman of the House Finance Committee. So some of our recent election victories though we're tight, you know, she barely squeaked by 2017 and then again in 2019. Her redrawn District, though, had her in a three-way primary chestnut income; what are the politics there in Chesterfield for the seat currently held by Roxanne Robinson?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, her old District was, you know, more suburban. This one's a little bit less Suburban. It's got a little bit more of rural Chesterfield. There are a lot of new territories. I think she's taken on, so you know, maybe local Chesterfield Republican politics. Some of these candidates were running because they thought they could be Roxanne Robinson into a primary or firehouse primary or convention or what have you. And you can't really blame anyone for thinking that there were a lot, a lot of incumbents that went down in primaries on both sides of the aisle in 2022. Across the country. And that's because they're new redistricting lines going up. Incumbents are losing a lot of territories and are trying to introduce themselves to voters. So I think that could be part of it. Also, at the same time, you mentioned that she had a competitive campaign in 2017, 2019, and 2021. I remember Denver Gardner got a lot of attention for the race was running. And, yeah, this District. It's an old configuration. Compared to this new one, it did get more Republican. This is a solidly Republican district; it went to Trump by seven points in 2020. Which translating to what Democrats can actually win this year is not really in the ballpark for him. So pretty much whoever wins the Republican nomination here will become a member of the House of Delegates.

Michael Pope

Okay, well, the next name on our list is delicate Margaret Ransone of Westmoreland County. So she is currently the chairwoman of the House Privileges and Elections Committee, which is actually the seniormost chairwoman of any committee. That actually puts her in the line of succession after the Speaker and the Majority Leader. She is the third-ranking member of the caucus there as chairwoman of House privileges and elections. She announced that she's not seeking her reelection on Facebook, and she was first elected in 2011. No other candidate filed to run against her when she made the announcement. Chaz, what's going on here with the retirement of Margaret Ransone?

Chaz Nuttycombe

She must've gotten tired of something. I mean, her new District is pretty much the same, almost the exact same. So she just wants to go out on her own terms. I think she had a pretty cozy spot. I don't think she really would have had any issue with reelection. So just, sometimes you see income and stepping away from politics, for whatever reasons.

Michael Pope

Well, the next name on our list is a longtime member of the House, Delegate Kathleen Murphy, who was first elected in 2015. So were the maps not kind to her, though, because she was drawn into a district with Rip Sullivan. So Chaz, what do you make of the potential primary that could have happened between Kathleen Murphy and Rip Sullivan? And do you think that influenced her decision?

Chaz Nuttycombe

If I recall correctly, I mean, I think she had more territory in that seat, but I'm not quite sure. I'm just kind of eyeballing it on our forecast page, which we'll be launching. Well, as of this recording, it'll be launching tomorrow. But you know, just this is another one of those things where you don't, you know, you got two incumbents placed together, and one of them decides to step out.

Michael Pope

Well, next on our list is yet another committee chair, woman delegate Kathy Byron, currently Chair of the House Commerce and Energy committee. So yet another very important committee chairman is stepping down; this is the fourth. I said three earlier, but I was doing the math wrong. It's four Republican committee chairs that are stepping down. So the maps also were not kind to Kathy Byron; she would have been in a district with delicate Windell Walker of Lynchburg. So, Chaz, what do you make of the politics there between Byron and Walker?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, the old maps did split up Lynchburg, and now Lynchburg city is all within one District. And there's one little precinct in Campbell County. I think that's the only part of the District that's outside of Lynchburg. So, you know, it will, I think it's smart for her to step out because, you know, this District is going to be trending leftward throughout the decade and went to Trump by 2.3%. Obviously, Lynchburg city itself went to Joe Biden in 2020 by a few points, but that one Campbell County precinct just put the District to Trump over the top. So it's gonna be Wendall Walker's problem and not hers for when this District becomes a competitive target later this decade.

Michael Pope

Well, the next person on our list is Delegate Jeff Bourne, a Democrat from Richmond. He was first elected in 2017. So he was part of that huge class of new members themselves, and 17 He filled the seat vacated by Jennifer McClellan, who, of course, went on to the State Senate and is now moving on to Congress. And when I talked to Delegate born last week, he said that he wants to spend more time with his family and that he's missing out on a lot of his, you know, children's lives says as they grow up and you know, head towards college, and he's missing out on all that stuff. And so he told the Richmond Times Dispatch that redistricting played zero roles in his decision. However, the new maps would have pitted him against Betsy Carr. So Chaz, yeah. What do you make about the potential primary challenge that could have happened between Jeff Bourne and Betsy's car? And what do you make of his decision?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Well, also, Don Adams was also drawn into this District. So now it's now Carr will be representing the new 78th. Yeah, you know, just born, got placed. Most of his old District is in what is now the 79th. But he does not live in it. So, you know, he says that redistricting plays no part. But I think at the same time, it's not really appealing to, you know, try and move to a new district or try and run against a fellow incumbent, especially in a district, if you're not moving, that he really wouldn't have done, he wouldn't have had much shot of winning that primary. You know, I think Carr would have been the favorite in that three-way.

Michael Pope

All right. So the next name on our list is Delegate Tim Anderson, a Republican of Virginia Beach. So, Tim Anderson flipped this competitive Hampton Roads district in 2021 when he defeated incumbent Democrat Nancy Guy. But now Anderson says he's not going to be seeking reelection, although he's also telegraphing that it might not be quits for good in his resignation message. He said that he planned to wait for the next door in his life to open. Not quite sure what that means. But Chad's gonna come. What do you make of the retirement of this relatively new face and the General Assembly saying it's calling it quits so soon?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah, Nancy Guy got the last laugh here. She really did. And I had been hanging and holding about this, maybe even in 2020, or just maybe 2021. I don't remember if it was whatever guidelines or whatever they had, but there had to have been a district. So the old District that Rob Bloxom represented was Eastern Shore and a chunk of Norfolk. And now, with it was either law or something by anyway, I just remember that the new 100th was legally obligated; if I recall correctly, it had to go from the bridge to Virginia Beach, in that it would have had to take out a lot of the old. I think Nancy Guy and Tim Anderson's district is the 83rd if I got that number off the top of my head, right? But yeah, so the new 100th District is, it's a solidly Republican district, but Bloxom was going to just annihilate anyone in a primary on the Eastern Shore, getting like Assad margins, probably.

Michael Pope

Assad margins. Is this a reference to Syria?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yes.

Michael Pope

I just wanted to make sure I knew what you were talking about there.

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah. So just like like 80% 90% something on the eastern shore. And then, you know, maybe Tim Anderson gets like 50%, or maybe even 60% at best, and Virginia Beach. You know, the Eastern Shores. Berry is a very incumbent, friendly area. But yeah, so I think Bloxom would have been favored in that contest. I was really, really excited for that to play out in a primary. But you know, I don't blame Tim Anderson for not, you know, running into what likely would have been a loss.

Michael Pope

Well, the next name on our list is delicate John Avoli, Republican from Stanton and former Stanton city council member; he was first elected in 2019 to replace Delegate Dickey Bell. So, in announcing his retirement, he said he's ready to retire after 49 years in public service. Gosh, that's a long time. But the Renew redistricting maps might have played somewhat of a role. So, in a news release, he announced his retirement, saying he was ready to retire after 49 years in public service. So that's a long time for Delegate John Avoli, Chaz to come up with the politics out there in Statton?

Chaz Nuttycombe

I'm gonna take his word that he just, you know, as has been in public service for half a century. And you're gonna get tired of working the same old job for that long. His new District, I don't think you really would have had much, much of a problem winning the Republican nominee nomination; it's got Statton and Waynesboro. That's a good chunk of the population in the old District and the new one. I don't think he really would have had an issue winning the nomination. So I'll believe the statement.

Michael Pope

Well, sometimes it's good to know when to call it quits. So, the next name on our list is James Edmonds. A Republican from Halifax was first elected in 2009 to fill the seat vacated by Clark Hogan. So he was drawn into the same District as Delegate Danny Marshall of Danville. So Chaz, what do you make of this potential? Edmonds, Marshall primary, that's not happening now? And do you think that those politics played into his decision?

Chaz Nuttycombe

I think it definitely did. And, you know, Marshall, I think he had more territory here than Edmonds. But it's not great news for Democrats because, you know, this District went to Trump by three and a half points, went to Trump by a larger margin in 2016. It may have voted for Obama in 2012. And so it's been slightly going to the left. Since Trump's first election as President, this District went to Mark Warner in 2020 by; I want to say, maybe even five points, somewhere between four or five points. But so it's not great for Democrats because Marshall is an electoral overperformer. Now, a part of that is because the Democrats haven't really put up a decent candidate against him since I was in elementary school. So that's, that's a part of it. But he's very well known. And I think there's only going to be a slight chance that he's going to have a competitive contest, not this cycle; he is going to be fine. Again, this District went to Trump by almost four points. But in a future election cycle, as his District continues to go leftward, maybe you get a little more friendly of a democratic environment, something like a 2018-level kind of blue wave. I think Marshall would still be favored just because of his popularity in the District.

Michael Pope

And then the last name on our list is Delegate Mike Mullen, a Democrat of Newport News, so known as a tough lawyer who was on the Courts of Justice committee, former prosecutor, a lawyer, great legal mind, tragically, right at the end of the General Assembly session this year, his three-month-old son died. And I remember Chaz; I was in the House chamber that day, and the members of the House of Delegates were visibly shaken by this news. And I remember that was the day they were going to have this procedural debate about abortion. And they had like they were going to do a rules change. And so they had to have five consecutive days of trying to do it. So this was the fifth and final day. So they had all their speeches planned. And the Delegate who was supposed to give the big speech about protecting abortion rights was so shaken by the Mike Mullen news that she said, I can't speak. So they clearly had the Democratic caucus had to change their plans at the last moment to make sure that somebody could speak because so everybody was really taken by this news about Mike Mullen. But redistricting left him with a Republican-leaning district that probably would have been pretty difficult for Delegate Mullen. Right?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Yeah. And, you know, I just want to preface with before getting into the redistricting stuff, you know, my prayers are with Delegate Moen. That's, you know, losing a child, I would imagine, would be one of the greatest pains anyone could ever go through in life. But yeah, his new District is not very friendly toward Democrats and went to Trump by almost two points; his old District was pretty solidly democratic; there was maybe a little bit of a chance that it could have gone Republican, like maybe a one or two and in 10 chance at best in some of those cycles, like 2017 through 2021. And it went to Democrats by including for Moen, by double digits, in most of those cycles between 2017 and 2021, Whether it be statewide or for Mullens's actual re-election. It went from James City County to Newport News. And, you know, the new one has, it's a very weird configuration. It's got parts of James City. It's got Pocosin, Gloucester, Newport News, and York counties. So again, it's not a very friendly district and Democrats. So you can't really agree and blame a politician for not wanting to run headfirst into what is likely to be a loss.

Michael Pope

All right, to review our list here, we've got retirements, Dick Saslaw and Tommy Norment. Janet Howell, John Edwards, Jill Vogel, Ken Plum, Rob Bell, Roxanne Robinson, Margaret Ransone, Kathleen Murphy, Kathy Byron, Jeff Bourne, Tim Anderson, John Avoli, James Edmonds, and Mike Mullen. Chaz, Before we end the podcast, are there any other names that you're hearing of people that might not be seeking reelection this year?

Chaz Nuttycombe

Well, I would imagine Delegate Godditis will not be running for reelection. Her old District went to Biden by double digits, and her new District went to Trump by 24 points. It's a solidly Republican district. The old District that she represented was a Republican gerrymander that stretched from Leesburg to Clark, parts of Clark County. And, you know, perhaps Senator Lewis of the Eastern Shore may not run for reelection. He had a solidly Democratic district before he went to Biden by double digits. But now the new District is mostly Virginia Beach rather than being very Norfolk-heavy, and it went to Trump by two points. But those of two that I've kind of got off the top of my head right now.

Michael Pope

All right, Chaz Nuttycome of CNalysis. Thanks for coming back on Pod Virginia.

Chaz Nuttycombe

Thank you so much for having me on.