Dr. Jatia Wrighten, Professor of Political Science at Virginia Commonwealth University, joins Thomas and Michael to discuss a notable political trend--that Black women are more likely to win seats in state legislatures and achieve leadership positions at a faster rate than both Black men and white women. To explain this phenomenon, she discusses her "heavy lifters" theory, which suggests Black women have been historically burdened with the responsibility of carrying their communities--a unique shared outcome of American slavery and their experience targeted by both racism and sexism. In this conversation, they discuss the outcomes of this theory and how it relates to Virginia politics--particularly last year's gubernatorial election, which saw three Black women running for the position. Learn more at http://linktr.ee/JacklegMedia Sponsored by the Substance Abuse and Addiction Recovery Alliance of Virginia

Episode Transcription

Jatia Wrighten 

During Jim Crow, Black women were really only able to work within white people's homes, where Black men had to work in more of this hard labor sector. And, so, it really was Black woman's income that Black men were dependent on during Jim Crow. This is very different than white women, who oftentimes are able to stay at home and become homemakers. And so Black men and Black women, really, since they arrived in this country, have had to work side by side in the labor market. And so Black women's expectations have always been that they've had to work.

Michael Pope 

On this episode of Pod Virginia.

Thomas Bowman

Black women in state legislatures.

Jatia Wrighten 

Black women will outpace.

Michael Pope 

We're joined by Jatia Wrighten at Virginia Commonwealth University.

Jatia Wrighten 

Women working together is actually much more common than Black women working with Black men.

Michael Pope 

She'll explain how Black women attain leadership positions at higher rates than Black men and white women.

Jatia Wrighten 

Black Women were never able to ascend to this like, Victorian ideals of womanhood.

Michael Pope 

You are listening to Pod Virginia stick around.

Michael Pope 

I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman 

I'm Thomas Bowman. 

Michael Pope 

And this is Pod Virginia, a podcast that was sitting around the other day browsing through the latest issue of the European Journal of training and development. Like to keep that thing handy. And we came across an excellent article by a friend of the podcast. Joining us to share her research on state legislatures. We're joined by a professor in the Department of Political Science at Virginia Commonwealth University, Jatia Wrighten. Thanks for joining us.

Jatia Wrighten 

Hi, thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk about my article today.

Michael Pope 

Great! You sent this article. It's fascinating. Big picture here is that you're outlining something called the heavy lifter theory; explain what is the heavy lifter theory? And what can we learn from it?

Jatia Wrighten 

Absolutely. So, when I was doing my research in graduate school, I was looking at state legislatures, and I was looking at the representation in state legislatures. And I noticed that it was predominantly white men who were winning and gaining seats in state legislatures. Well, as time went on, I started noticing that Black women were really, you know, an interesting piece of this puzzle where they were winning and starting to gain seats more often and outpace both Black men and white women. All of this research suggests that we know that when women run, they win, right. So there's their scholarship that already suggests that women are oftentimes better at cooperation negotiations. When they get into the state legislature, they are really good about working together and writing policy. And so the fact that women do well when they actually run is not surprising. But what was interesting was that Black women were running. And they were beginning to outpace both white women and Black men, as it relates to gaining leadership in the state legislature. And that in itself is fascinating because we know that Black women face both sexism and racism at the same time. And state legislatures are really an example of an institution where Black women have been excluded from, really from the beginning of our history in this country. And so that really started to beg the question, how are they doing this? How are they gaining this ability to win or run and win in the state elections, especially when state legislatures are overwhelmingly Republican? As we know from other scholarship, Black women are oftentimes steadfast Democrats. And so they are often in the minority party when they are running for office at the state level. And as states are oftentimes Republican-run, there is an advantage for Republican Party members. And so one of the things I started to look at and think about is what are the differences I see between Black women, white women, and Black men? And in all honesty, I really started to think about Black women I know in my own life and the things that they're faced with and how they navigate this world, especially in America, and face both racism and sexism. And I started to think about, like, how does this apply to state legislatures, and that's how I came up with the heavy lifters theory. And what the heavy lifter's theories suggest is that Black women are really faced with the burden of caring and supporting their community. And this has been a result of slavery, right? So there's shared oppression there that Black women have experienced together. And due to their experience on plantations, where Black men were taken from their homes, especially during the Civil War, where there was an impressment policy that left Black women as heads of households, they were left on these plantations to care for the elderly, the ill their children, and they really were forced to navigate around existing institutions in order for their, their communities to survive. And what I call this, or what scholars call this is historical socialization. And historical socialization can actually affect generations of people. And so I suggest that Black women experienced this historical socialization and have really passed down these skills and these abilities to navigate institutions that are exclusive in nature. And this is that gender description. So Black women are literally ascribed to a certain role in the Black community. And all of these skills that they've had to hone in on or use makes them actually competent leaders and enable them to actually gain leadership at higher rates than both Black men and white women and state legislatures. So that is the heavy lifters theory, the difference, really, what's explaining the differences and legislative behavior between Black women, white women, and Black men.

Thomas Bowman

So let's zoom out real quick. And look at the big picture of all the state legislators serving around the country. Only 2300 of them are women. And around 365 to 355, depending on when you count it, are Black women at least identify at least part of their ethnicity and race as Black. And you're finding that they are reaching leadership levels faster than their Black male counterparts, who have often attained higher levels of seniority.

Jatia Wrighten 

Right? So and so what this is, I actually tested the probability of them gaining these leadership positions. And so it's not necessarily that they have attained leadership, but it's that they're, they have a higher probability of gaining leadership and state legislatures. And even though you know, the 300 number may seem small, when you're thinking about proportion, size, right, so proportional to the Black women in the population, it's at higher rates than the proportion for white women in the population, and then Black men in the population. So that's the comparison. It's the proportion, size, and in comparison to population within that state. And so that's what we're looking at. And so, with regards to that, yes, Black women do have a higher probability of gaining leadership in state legislatures. And so what I take a look at, the reason I use Black men and white women as a comparison group is because white women are women, right? So they have the sex piece. And then Black men have the race piece. And so we know that there is racism and sexism that exists that makes these, you know, obstacles and barriers even more difficult to obtain leadership and the state legislature. And so the expectation would be that both Black men and white women would attain leadership really at the same rates because they're also facing either sexism or racism. And what I find is that the combination of both sex and race is actually going to increase the probability of Black women gaining leadership. And so that's what I start to think about, well, what is it about being a Black woman that makes these this probability, you know what it is? Right? Why does it make it higher than either Black men or white women. And so this is where that historical socialization and gender ascription come in. But it's also reflected in the policy that Black women take up when they are sitting in the legislature. So, a scholar, her name is Barrett 1995, found that Black women across states are pretty unanimous in their policy emphasis. So what that means is that the policies that they take up when they are in the state legislature are actually the same across states across all those Black women. And that's pretty unique. And so one of the things, you know, one of the reasons I attribute this, you know, unanimous or, or this ability to sort of have the same policy emphasis is through linked fate, right? And so linked to fate is this idea that what happens to one Black person really does affect the entire community of Black people. And no one feels that more than Black women, as Black women really are burdened with the, you know, maintaining the vitality, in the safety of the Black community. And so, one way that we see this manifests itself in the state legislature is through policy. And the policy is actually the same across state legislatures and across Black women. You do not find that with regard to Black men or white women.

Thomas Bowman

So just to put a pin in this heavy lifter theory, your theory provides empirical evidence that Black women are able to maneuver in institutions that excluded them and attain high rates of leadership levels. And you found specifically that one tactic or strategy that many of the successful Black women have in common is intersectionality, which you defined as both race and sex. But my political consultant mind read this and saw this as a potential roadmap, if you will, for tactics that Black women presently or aspiring to serve in state legislatures could use to attain higher levels of leadership. And that would include taking on a broad spectrum of community issues.

Jatia Wrighten 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also points to so absolutely. Intersectionality is this, you know, identity or this intersection of both race and sex. And one of the things that, you know, in the past has been thought of is that we know that Black women face certain obstacles because of this. But what's fascinating about this research is that it also shows that it actually benefits them in a way. And I think one of the like, real-life applicable lessons that come from this research is that if organizations such as Emily's list or emerge, would actually think about that, in terms of how Black women approach maybe campaigning, or even running for office, and really highlight and focus on the skills sets and these values that they hold that are, you know, near and dear to the Black community, that actually may, you know, result in an advantage versus a disadvantage, right. And even with like the way that they present themselves, like physically, right, we know that in a book scholars like brown, and let me have found that Black women often really worry about how they present themselves, whether they were natural hair, or whether you know, the clothes that they wear, because they are cognizant of, you know, their Blackness. And what I am suggesting is that this actually could be a benefit to them if organizations would actually take this under advisement and really train these Black women on emphasizing and capitalizing on these skills. And in basically ensuring that once they are elected, they know that there is a pathway to leadership that gives them the ability to really write and pass policy that is most meaningful to the communities that they represent.

Michael Pope 

I want to follow up with something you said a minute ago about the unanimity of Black women in policy positions. I bet there are probably some outliers for that, right. I mean, if you think about the Virginia State Senate, we have a Black woman at the top spot, the Lieutenant Governor presiding over the chamber is a Black woman, and the longtime Democratic senator L. Louise Lucas is President of the Senate. So you got two Black women in the two top leadership positions there. But I bet they don't agree on policy positions, right. I mean, wouldn’t Winsome Sears be kind of an outlier, and that unanimity you were talking about?

Jatia Wrighten 

Yeah, absolutely. And at the time, this scholar Baird was not looking at Republican, Black women. And so I should note that my scholarship doesn't actually look at Republican Black women because when I was collecting this data, there were no Republican, Black women in state legislatures. And so Winsome Sears is definitely a case study worth addressing in terms of, like, is this something that we're going to see in the future where Black women are going to identify as Republican? And if I, you know, make an educated guess, the answer is no, for the most part, you know, since the 1960s, we've seen Black people really maintain Democrats as an ideology and as their partisanship. And it's often because, you know, the two choices between Democrat and Republican, there's not much. At least the Democrats even show some concern towards the Black community, with the Republican Party not really showing any. And so Winsome Sears is fascinating, on her own, but it's really just, she's absolutely an outlier, where the other members of Virginia state legislature, the other Black women are more in line to what you know, what my research shows, and in the policy, emphasis is going to always align with like education, the criminal justice system, and then really labor right so that thinking about wage inequality, educational attainment, inequality, health inequality, those are the policy issues that Black women are going to take up because they overwhelmingly affect the Black members and their Black constituents.

Thomas Bowman

All data has outliers, and outliers prove the rule sometimes.

Jatia Wrighten

Yes.

Thomas Bowman

Alright, so I wonder how we assess the performance of, say, Jennifer McClellan and the primary last year or Jennifer Carol Foy, where we had two competent and exceptionally qualified Black female politicians running for governor, who, of course, though, got sidelined by the institutional apparatus, and the momentum that Terry McAuliffe already had, and the money Terry McAuliffe already had. And, of course, it was too much for McClellan or Foy to overcome. How might things be different, if you will? What policies might they have pursued? Had they been the nominee or tactics that they might have successfully employed, had one of these people or another Black woman in the future been the nominee?

Jatia Wrighten 

Well, I mean, I think one thing that's important to point out is that you want your government to reflect the population. And so the fact that we had three Black women running in Virginia for a gubernatorial position is, you know, that's the goal, right, you want to have both substantive and descriptive representation. However, as it relates to the Black community, I do think that having three Black women actually hurt the chances of any of them being elected because it really does split the Black community into three. And what I mean by that is that just because the Black community mostly votes Democrat doesn't mean that there aren't nuances among them. So you know, you're thinking about Foy, who is a bit more progressive. In comparison to McClellan, however, McClellan has a lot more experience, she, you know, sat in the Senate, and then you have Blanding, who really was like this independent, and really kept, you know, captured, the angst that many Black community members fill as it relates to police violence. And really, you know, this focus on Black Lives Matter. And so, you know, all three of them really do capture policies that were important to the Black community. But as all three of them were on the ballot for the primaries, it really did split that it split the power of the Black community's vote. And that's one lesson. At least one takeaway is that one of the reasons why Black people vote as a bloc is because that is where their power is found. We only have as much power as the group because if we vote individually and not on the same sort of page, we lose that power as the African American community. And I think that, you know, the primary is an example of this. However, there was also an outside force where many people in the Democratic party didn't want any of them to win and really had put their weight behind Terry McAuliffe, not only in campaign finance, but also in just like media appearances and, you know, pulling up pulling people from the national level to back him. And so, of course, you know, in that way, you know, Black women, those three Black women really did have a narrow chance of becoming the nominee. One of the lessons at least, you know, at least from people watching this is that, so what we get instead is a Younkin. Right, which would be the exact opposite of any of those three Black women's policy preferences or policies that we would have seen coming out of Virginia.

Thomas Bowman

I'm wondering, Dr. Wrighten, if there's a lesson here for non-Black women if intersectionality and champion community is something that can help Black women get to higher rates of leadership positions and also succeed, right at the fundamental level, is this something that non-Black women could also adopt? And that would, of course, require listening to Black women. But if they're not at the top of the ticket, or even on the ticket, do your findings suggest that it might be a smart idea to put them in a to put Black woman in position of confidence in whoever that elected official or policymaker is?

Jatia Wrighten 

Yeah, so I think I mean, I still have interviewed a number of Black women who are presently in state legislatures, so not just in Virginia. And what I found was that they said one of their biggest allies, once they get into the state legislature, is actually white women. So in terms of their allies, it's not Black men. It's white women because a lot of the policies that Black women care about really are also gender oriented. Right. So when you're talking about education, when you're talking about children, when you're talking about the labor market, white women also fill the, you know, consequences of not having a policy that addresses like these inequalities, they're also affected by it. And so oftentimes you find that, you know, co-sponsors are oftentimes Black women and white women. So in terms of learning these lessons, I absolutely think that, You know, women working together, it's actually much more common in state legislatures than Black women working with Black men. And so that absolutely is one sort of takeaway from this work. But it's also this idea that you know, for Black women for so long, right oppression has made them work outside of these institutions. And so when they get inside of these institutions, they really do have unique perspective and experience that other members of their, you know, chamber or committee, or their peers within State Legislature really should try and learn from, or at least listen to, and I do think that would increase the substantive policies that come out to more accurately represent the people that they say they represent. On the other hand, I think that white women would have a more difficult time maybe capitalizing on, you know, shared experiences because it's not the same sort of unifying experience as Black women have. So that's the entire point of my research that without that historical socialization, I don't know if the Black woman would have this sort of like unifying policy or unifying experience or, you know, shared similarities across, you know, states and time. And so I don't. I'm not certain that white women would have access to this. However, maybe other, you know, women of color would, depending on their own experiences in the United States. But I do want to emphasize, like, I'm not saying that oppression is good is the takeaway, right? That's not what I'm not saying, like, Yay, oppression has created these, like, really unique skill sets for Black women; it's more so that they've had to endure oppression. And that has created these leaders in these communities. And that's something that we should absolutely pay attention to in terms of who is being elected to state legislatures.

Michael Pope 

So your research looks at groups, and I want to make sure that we understand the relationship here between Black women as a group and state legislatures versus Black men and state legislatures versus white women and the state legislature. So specifically, one of the things you unearthed that was really fascinating is that Black women are attaining leadership positions at a rate that far outpaces Black men who have been kind of stagnant, right; explain what your research shows there.

Jatia Wrighten 

Yeah, so it's the so I just want to emphasize it's the probability of leadership, not necessarily that they have gained leadership, and it's just looking at from 2007 to 2014. If you look at the Black women who have risen to leadership, we take that, and then I really run like a mathematical model that suggests over time, Black women will outpace and even looking at, you know, the last two or three years, we do see this being the case that Black women really have started to outpace both Black men and white women in gaining leadership positions. So once I found that, that is what prompted me to think about what is different between Black women's legislative behavior, white women's legislative behavior, and Black men's legislative behavior that is making it possible for Black women to outpace these other two groups and their probability of gaining leads. And the thing that kept that I kept coming back to, the thing that kept saying was statistically significant, was their actual identity. So actually, being a Black woman is what makes the difference in gaining leadership. So when you start digging down into that, that's when you start seeing that Black women have had a very unique experience in the United States, not only with oppression and slavery but also with the labor market that is different from both Black men and white women. One clear example I'll give you of this would be something like Black women have always made less per dollar for, you know, in comparison, both white women and Black men, but oftentimes have been head of household. And so they are forced to really not only stretch this money but ensure that their children are well taken care of. They're oftentimes our members like leaders of their community; people look to them to ensure the safety of their schools. And so they have really had to, I mean, this is such a common thing, but like, make something out of nothing. And that's what we see the Black woman doing in state legislatures is really being able to create something out of nothing.

Thomas Bowman

So what are some jumping-off points of this research in the book you're working on? One that comes to mind is because you briefly touch on the labor market, but based on at least the paper that I'm looking at? You're not. You haven't really examined income that, and so I'm wondering what row class has in the intersectionality here and income levels and historical wealth?

Jatia Wrighten 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that's apps. Really the case because if you take a look at any of the things, any of the examples I speak about any of the Black woman legislators or even people in the past like I talked about Ida B Wells, or Ella Fitzgerald, all of these are really middle-class Black women, right? Even for ITV wells, within this time, when, you know, Black women were barred from going to school, she was pretty highly educated and was considered middle class, really, like considered an elite of the Black community. And if you think about, like, people who are an able Black woman who is able to run and win for office, are oftentimes to going to find themselves at least in the middle class, you know, economics. And so that is different, right. And that's something that needs to be further examined because there's going to be some sort of freedom there, to be able to have the flexibility to run for office. Also, you know, we know that state legislatures do not pay, you know, amazing salaries; I think in the state of Virginia, I think it's something like $13,000 for the year because they're considered a part-time legislature. And so this matters to who can run, like what type of Black women are running. And so that does need to be looked at further. But with, with my piece on the labor on the market, it's more so that during, you know, during Jim Crow, Black women were really only able to work within white people's homes, whereas Black men had to work in more of this like hard labor sector because they were barred from, you know, certain jobs that would allow them to have, or at least, you know, arrive in the middle class. And so it really was Black women, black woman's income that black men were dependent on during Jim Crow; this is very different than white women who oftentimes are able to stay at home and become homemakers. And so Black men and Black women, really, since they arrived in this country, I've had to work side by side in the labor market. And so Black woman's expectations have always been that they've had to work. And so this is different, sort of this trajectory of their relationship with capitalism and with the labor market is quite different from white women, where, you know, you're talking about like, Victorian ideals about what women should be, and how they should look, Black women were never able to ascend to this, like Victorian ideals of womanhood. And so, their experience with the labor market is quite different. And I do think that lends itself to some of these other skills that we see that are necessary for in, you know, legislatures, like negotiation and cooperation. And in putting in this sort of work that is necessary, that wasn't expected of white women, you know, in sort of, like historically. So that's the sort of thing I talked about with, like, the relationship between the labor market and Black women, not necessarily like the income class of the legislators that we see now, which is important, but I did not have the space and time to write about that in that article that you're looking at.

Michael Pope 

All right, well,that is a great place to leave it. We really appreciate you joining us on the pod, Virginia, to share your research on Jatia Wrighten. We will talk to you again sometime soon. And we're looking forward to that new book you just talked about.

Jatia Wrighten 

Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to it too, whenever I get it done.

Michael Pope 

Right. Well, whenthat happens; we'll have you back on the podcast.

Jatia Wrighten 

Perfect. Thank you so much.