Tom Garrett is a former Republican Congressman from Virginia's fifth district. Matt Whitworth is a documentary filmmaker known for HBO's "The Swamp." They are teaming up for a new project called "Exile" to expose the global crisis of religious and ethnic persecution. Tom wants to travel to some of the most dangerous places on earth to tell the stories of those who are persecuted, and they need to crowdsource the funds to do it. Learn more at www.exileproject.com.

Thomas and Michael also discuss a bill from David Suetterlein to categorize absentee ballots by precinct and respond to some messages from twitter and Patreon. See more at: https://linktr.ee/JacklegMedia.

Michael Pope

I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

And I'm Thomas Bowman.

Michael Pope

And this is Transition Virginia, the podcast that documents the ongoing transition of power in Virginia.

Thomas Bowman

Later in the podcast, we'll catch up with former Republican Congressman, Tom Garrett. He's got a new lease on life and a new project. He's trying to put together a documentary series about religious and ethnic persecution across the globe.

Michael Pope

He's working with a documentary filmmaker, Matt Whitworth, who previously worked on the HBO series, "The Swamp." He and Garrett are trying to crowdsource the funding for creating episodes that would take them to places like Syria, and Iraq, where they can tell the stories of religious persecution and ethnic persecution.

Thomas Bowman

And of course, it is not just Christians who are persecuted around the world. Garrett says the last thing he wants to do is be another version of, "The 700 Club." So stay tuned for that conversation later in the podcast.

Michael Pope

Okay, let's get to the news. The recent rise in absentee voting has had an unintended consequence, much less data about where votes are coming from. Instead of votes being counted at your local precinct, they're tabulated in one, at large, precinct. Republican Senator David Suetterlein of Roanoke has already introduced a bill requiring registrar's sort absentee ballots by precinct.

David Suetterlein

It's incredibly important that we count early votes by precinct, rather than large, murky pools, so that the results are clear, and transparent, election mirages aren't produced on election night. That then bad actors are able to try to use to manipulate folks later with.

Michael Pope

Now registrar's say they see this change coming, although they want to make sure lawmakers understand the details about what's involved in making it happen. Brenda Cabrera is President of the Voter Registrar's Association, and she says the act of physically sorting the ballots is probably unnecessary.

Brenda Cabrera

It doesn't help anything administratively because the counting is an electronic process. And so there really is no administrative reason to go through thousands of ballots and sort them into 300 piles and store them that way at the court.

Michael Pope

Now registrar's say one of two things is needed to make this happen. Either election officials have individual ballots pre printed for each and every individual voting precinct, or they have special printers to print individual ballots on demand. Now either way, Thomas, making this change is going to cost a lot of money for the local registrar's. If you look at the economic impact statement for Suetterlein's bill, the fiscal impact statement for Suetterlein's bill, there's zero costs for Virginia because it's not a state funded thing here. This is an, essentially, an unfunded mandate to every single one of the registrar's across Virginia that they've got to incur these new costs. Now, for some of the registrar's, there's very little cost, like Cabrera, who you just heard from, is the registrar in Fairfax City. Well, they've got like six precincts in Fairfax City. So for them, it's just a matter of printing a few extra ballots and they're done. So it's kind of de minimis, they just need to print a handful of extra ballots. But then for some places, like Fairfax County, they've got hundreds of ballots. So it's way more complicated, and they're going to need to invest in machines that can, essentially, print ballots on demand. So there are lots of people that want to make this happen. But the opposition they're going to run into is the registrar's across Virginia don't want this change to happen, or at least they're concerned about the funding that they would have to incur. So like, once again, this is kind of a topic about money, right? It's a change, I think probably everybody wants to happen, and you get better data, and you get, you know, election integrity. But it's going to cost a lot of money for some of the larger jurisdictions across Virginia, who are resistant to this. Thomas, do you see this going anywhere, this upcoming General Assembly session?

Thomas Bowman

That's a great question, Michael. And this is one of those policy areas where everything is way more complicated than it seems on its face. And there's usually a very good reason for that. From my perspective, they're over complicating it, and they're overstating the challenge. Because we can easily print something called a barcode, we can easily print a QR code for the individual with their precinct level data on it, at the very least. And we can scan that and right along with the ballot, maybe you gotta count the ballots as you go, like we already do, maybe you got to scan the barcode. But there's already barcodes involved in this process. And so you just add a little bit more data to it. This seems to me like they are way over complicating it just because it's something that a bunch of registrar's, of varying competencies, do not understand how to do. And so they're trying to drag their feet, so they don't have to do it. That said, the legislature doesn't get to vote on what could be. The legislature gets to vote on what's in front of them, and the methods that are brought before them. So it could very well be that the monetary impact that was presented to them, made it not a viable solution. And to Cabrera's point, the physical sorting isn't necessary. And I 100% agree with that, because we live in the 21st century. You don't need to waste manpower and time and hours just physically sorting a document that you could just slap a barcode on that tells you where it came from.

Michael Pope

Well, that's actually the tweaking that's now going on. Because Suetterlein's bill, as it currently is written, does require the sorting. And so Cabrera's concern is that the way it's currently written, it implies that the ballots need to be physically sorted at the courthouse, which is probably not needed. It's really the data disaggregation that's, that's important. I always go back to, I mean, like my interest in this, as a journalist, I want numbers, I want data. And if if you look at- one of my local precincts is the Alexandria City Hall precinct, which I watch very closely, because it's important to Alexandria, but it's also- it has historical significance. It's actually where George Washington used to vote, blah, blah, blah. So one of the things that I find particularly interesting, is if you look at the 2020 election cycle, Donald Trump got a higher share of the vote at the city hall precinct than any other candidate has ever received in the, at least, recent history of voting. So Donald Trump got a higher percentage of the vote than Ronald Reagan did in either 80 or 84. Now, he didn't actually...so that's of the data that we've got, which is, of the people that voted on Election Day, at City Hall, he got a higher share of the vote than Ronald Reagan did. But that's not counting all of the other voters in the City Hall precinct who voted, and their votes count just as much as the people who voted on Election Day. But because our system is broken, we put those in a different pool. And so now, we've got a pool that people have been urinating in, essentially. And that's the pool that we're creating our new maps from redistricting from. So like, it's actually frustrating that we haven't solved this problem before we try to go into redistricting because now we've got this crappy data that we're trying to build new maps out of.

Thomas Bowman

Michael, you lost me at pee in the pool.

Michael Pope

Yeah, I know. I was kind of mixing my metaphors a little bit there.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah. My guess is during a pandemic, the Democrats are staying home and voting early, and the Republican voters, who are being told by their leaders not to take it seriously, are the ones going out and voting in person on Election Day?

Michael Pope

Well, I have to say, big shout out to Senator Suetterlein, for taking this on, because it's, from his perspective, he's trying to counter accusations about elections being rigged by making sure that we've got data so that we know, and can prove, that the elections are not rigged. And so you know, more data that's good data, is a counterpoint to bad data and lies. And so the opposition to Suetterlein is interesting, because it's the House Democrats who killed his bill. Thomas, what's up with that?

Thomas Bowman

Well, it's not that crazy, because clearly, it's a good idea. But the legislation itself was not ready for primetime. And that happens all the time, you can have a great idea. We got to fix some things in the, in the language itself to make sure it does what's intended, which is the data gathering, and not the unintended consequence, which is having people spending physical time sorting it into like, separate piles, I guess. My guess, that isn't what Suetterlein wants. So this is actually a very common occurrence in the Virginia General Assembly. Somebody will have an idea that they've got the language the way they wrote it, because I think it's a great idea. And then they figure out, "Oh, wait a second. There's this huge unintended consequence, let's pull it or let's kill the bill, or whatever it's gonna be, bring it back next year." And that's why bills, often, I tell my clients that if you want to propose a new law, that's going to take a minimum of two years. You're going to introduce it in the first year, it's going to die in the first year, unless everybody's in agreement. And then you're going to fix it based off the feedback you got in that first year, because they only have 60 or 90 days, they only have so much they can handle as far as bandwidth goes. And then you come back next year, with the bill everybody agrees on and you get it done. It often takes even more time than that. But that's generally how a bill becomes a law.

Michael Pope

Well, so Suetterlein has already had two bites at this apple. The first was in the 2021 session. And one of the points of opposition was, "Hey, wait a minute, we're about to have this gigantic campaign for Governor, we don't want to change the rules of the game when we got this election that's on the horizon." Although, of course, you could post date all the changes to be after the election. So but for whatever reason, the House Democrats opposed it and killed the bill. And then there was this special session when they were debating how they wanted to use all this federal money coming out of Washington. And the thing there is, you know, the the Governor's people didn't want too many changes, because they had already had spending plans. And anytime you change the spending plans it, you know, it moves all the pieces around, and they didn't want to have to deal with the problems of that. And so they didn't end up passing it the second time. So now in 2022, we're going to have Suetterlein's third attempt at this. And so maybe it'll have more success next year?

Thomas Bowman

The other thing to consider, is now that the Republicans have controlled the House of Delegates, perhaps this is a bill that passes this year?

Michael Pope

I think that's entirely likely and I guess we'll have to see as this thing moves forward. Okay, so let's move on to our listener mail.

Thomas Bowman

Andrew Millin wants to know if we've ever thought about doing a segment about legislative staff?

Michael Pope

Andrew Millin, isn't he actually legislative staff himself?

Thomas Bowman

Yes. And he admits it might sound a little bit self promotional, but he says that's not how he intends it. And it might be cool to explore young people who have such a say in how policy is constructed in Virginia?

Michael Pope

Yes, I have to say I've always been a fan of legislative staff. In fact, one of the things I do, as a journalist, is make a point of meeting the legislative staff, learning their names, figuring out who they work for, what their interests are, what they think about what's happening in the General Assembly. In fact, Thomas, that's how you and I met because you were a legislative staffer when I met you. And it's for that very reason, because I like to wander around the Pocahontas Building, and meet the legislative staffers, and find out what they're interested in, and what they're talking about. In fact, I've had many lawmakers tell me, "If you really want to know what's happening in the, in the General Assembly, talk to the staffers."

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, actually, thank you, Andrew, because I think this is a fascinating topic, especially for you who are listening to Transition Virginia right now. I'm sure you would be fascinated to really understand the influence that the single staffer, for a member of the House or the Senate, in Virginia, have over their member, and it's gonna vary from office to office. Some people just kind of open letters and present it to their members. And then others make the policy for the office, in consultation with their member, and they'll tell their member how to vote, how their district wants them to vote, at least. And they'll do all the negotiating, actually. So this is a fascinating spot, again, depending on the office itself, for episodes. So I absolutely think that we should do one, profiling the young people who make our policy. And I know in some offices, I was a, just, "do what I tell you," kind of staffer, and then in other offices, I did everything for the delegate, except for push the button. So every one is different.

Michael Pope

Yeah, I would imagine that if you think about our listeners, as a pie chart, a significant amount of that pie is going to be legislative staffers, right?

Thomas Bowman

We know our demographic.

Michael Pope

I think a lot of our listeners, or, if not, a majority of our listeners, are legislative staffers. So yeah, I think this is a topic that's near and dear to the hearts of many of our listeners.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah. So let's do it, Michael. Let's circle back around to this.

Michael Pope

Thomas, let me let me ask you a question about legislative staffers. So yeah, how would you describe the variety? In other words, of the people who are legislative staffers, what is the range of people that we're talking about here, like, are some of them eyeing being elected officials themselves? Are some of them eyeing staff positions, in like, the Governor's Office? Are some of them, eyeing, sort of, political positions, where they do consulting? I mean, like, kind of what's the range of people, in terms of their their future interests?

Thomas Bowman

Well, people get into these jobs for all sorts of reasons. There's one staffer who met their member in Bible study, and their member needed help. And that person was not really political before that, and got the job, and they've had it for many years at this point. Some staffers do have ambitions on office themselves. You know, what I found fascinating, is often the staff who come from places like Danville or Bristol, in, in smaller population areas, L.A. for the elected official of that locality is a great job. It's one of the best in the entire district. And so there are a lot of staff who are Republicans, because it is the only way they can have a job in politics, and get out of their small town that they're stuck in. And so there are those kinds of people. And then there are smart, ambitious people who are only going to be there for two years and move on to something different. Plenty of staffers do move on to the lobby core, because they have relationships, and they know the issues. And really, it kind of depends on who their member is.

Michael Pope

Fascinating topic. And we can certainly come back to this at some point.

Thomas Bowman

I think we've got 20 minutes for a interview or an entire episode, really on...

Michael Pope

A panel, we should put together a panel of top legislative staffers.

Thomas Bowman

If you are a legislative staffer, and you think you might want to be on a panel like this, get in touch with us, send us an email to transitionvapodcast@gmail.com.

Michael Pope

I love it. Let's do it. Okay, so hey, listen, our next listener mail comes from one of our Patreons, Robert Dyer. He wonders if the Virginia Board of Elections will change members or policies with a new Governor? He points out there have been a number of candidates from both parties, recently, who have made paperwork errors when filing for candidacy. Thomas, this is part of our system that I've always felt like is super, super shady. Because every locality has a three member electoral board. And two of those members are from the party of the Governor, and the third member is from the opposing party. And so what is going to happen here, in the coming months, is that when these terms expire, the Democrats, most of these Democrats, will leave the electoral boards and not come back. And there'll be all these Republicans appointed to electoral boards across the state. So even in your deepest blue areas, Arlington is going to have two Republicans on a three member electoral board. Alexandria is going to have two Republicans on a three member electoral board. Like I said, I think this whole system is kind of shady. I don't know why it works this way. But this is the system that we've inherited. And those are the people that are going to make decisions on all these paperwork filings. And so you know, as Robert Dyer pointed out, we've had all these candidates recently who have made paperwork errors. We've had, on the Republican side, Nick Freitas made paperwork errors that got him into hot water. On the Democratic side, Terry McAuliffe made paperwork errors that got him into hot water. So Thomas, what do you make of this electoral board system that we've got and the fact that Republicans will be installed in all of these, like 130 electoral boards across Virginia?

Thomas Bowman

Well, first off, Robert, thank you for this question. And it is a great one, because I have no idea. I don't know how this is gonna shake out. This is traditionally something that you forgive innocent mistakes, because you could be a hard ass, and stick to the letter of the law and say, "No, you can't be on the ballot, even though you've been elected three or four times in the past, because you messed up this one thing, and maybe it wasn't your fault." Or you could forgive that person and let them on the ballot. And the reason you might want to do that, is because one day, your party will be out of power. And when your party is out of power, this is a, potentially, nuclear option, you only get to drop this bomb one time, and then everybody drops it forever. So there's a lot of incentive to go along and get along here. Now, what that doesn't take into account is a lot of the Republican Party's playbook for the last 10 years, has been light everything on fire that it possibly can. And so is this going to become another instance of scorched earth policy on state government? I don't know. That is a great question, Robert, because if we keep decorum, the way it should have been, the reason it's set up this way, is because Virginia, has always been, until we change the Constitution, will always be a machine state, run by the Governor.

Michael Pope

You know, another point, though, thing that's worth thinking about here, is that there are shades of gray, in terms of errors. You know, like the Terry McAuliffe error was that his signature did not appear on a document that needed his signature, they just didn't, nobody got around to asking him to sign it. And so when they filed it, it didn't have his signature on it. That's, you know, on the order of kinds of mistakes that you can say, "Well, maybe we should forgive that as an error." Then there is the other error, that you outlined, Thomas, recently in the true crime episode, where a candidate, and his people, were forging signatures of people to get on the ballot. And that's the kind of thing that's you should, that no one is going to say, "Well, maybe that's something we should forgive?" No, it's like you shouldn't forgive.

Thomas Bowman

Michael, that's not an error. That's a crime. Hence why it was a true crime episode. And you should totally go back and listen to that one.

Michael Pope

Yes. If you haven't listened to it, you should totally go back and listen to it.

Thomas Bowman

But no, you're right. So there are shades of gray. This is why we have human beings making this decision and not computers, because this is a human calculation. Now, I think the institutional inertia is to just leave things as they are, stay forgiving, unless you absolutely cannot be. But who knows? Okay, all right. Let's take a break. Because when we come back, we're going to talk to Congressman Tom Garrett. And by the way, he hates being called, "Congressman." So we're going to talk to Tom, and a documentary filmmaker named Matt Whitworth. They've got a new project that they're trying to crowd five, exposing the struggles of minority communities across the globe. And it's not just religion, Michael. It's also LGBT status. We'll be right back.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia, we're joined by a former Republican Congressman, who's launching a new project to highlight the struggle of minority communities across the globe. Tom Garrett, thanks for joining us.

Tom Garrett

Hey, Michael, Thomas. Thank you for having us.

Thomas Bowman

We're glad to have you here. We're also joined by the documentary filmmaker who is working with Tom Garrett to make it happen. Matt Whitworth, thank you for joining us.

Matt Whitworth

Great to be on with you.

Michael Pope

Okay, so Congressman Garrett, I know that you don't like being called Congressman Garrett, so I'm going to call you, Tom. Tom, tell us a little bit about this project. So spotlighting the struggles of minority communities across the globe might sound kind of academic, and distant to a lot of our listeners, what are we talking about there? And how did you come to be interested in this topic?

Tom Garrett

So I'm a nerd, right, and I have been my whole life. But I figured out, at some point, that the mathematical odds of being born, or arriving in the United States, are something like one in 26. And we have work to do in America, right? We're not perfect. We're not ever going to be perfect, right? To form a more perfect union that that American Revolution has to be perpetual. However, we are absolutely blessed by virtue of the reality that despite the fact that there are disparities and inequity, we can generally, live without existential fear, based on our sexual orientation, our faith, our ethnicity, or race, etc, right? And I'm not saying that's always the case, but it's usually the case. And as I've had the blessing really to get out into the world, it's become very obvious that most places, if you're in a minority community, it is actually, literally by definition, an existential threat. And that, to me, I've got this massive blessing, right, that I don't have to look over my shoulder and wonder if I'm going to be mugged because I might go to church on Sunday, or mosque on Friday, or or synagogue. And so I got I got in the politics, theoretically, and again, whether I agree with you on one issue or another, I'll bet we agree on this, to sort of lead a life that mattered, to do something that mattered. And as I learned more about the struggles of various minority communities globally, I was able to have the opportunity to snatch a couple of people out of prison in the Republic of Sudan, who were there for aiding rebels. And what that means Thomas, and Michael, is they've given food and medicine to their neighbors. And I've never done anything in my life that felt so good, than going over there against the wishes of the administration, Trump was in the White House at the time, against the wishes of the committee chair, on my own dime, and sitting down with people who are terrorists, and saying, "What will it take to get these guys out?" And then getting them set up to live in Virginia, right, where they work hard every day to raise a family that they love, just like anybody else. And that was awesome. But how do you do that? And then I, have very publicly, admitted some struggles with alcohol, I'm 42 months and 13 days, sober right now, one day at a time, by the grace of God. And so the political thing, the wheels were coming off, I was I didn't like myself, I didn't like my life. And so I turned and walked away from that in order to address my need to get sober, which day by day is going well. But this is what captivated me. So how do you make a living doing it? And then I had this relationship with Matt. And when a lot of people who used to call me stop taking my calls, Matt called and said, "Hey, how would you feel about this?" So that's how I got here. I think this is where I'm meant to be. But we're crowdfunding this thing. So it'll either work or it won't. But the idea, right, that people should be able to live in the place of their birth without fear, regardless of their race, their ethnicity, their faith, their sexual orientation, what have you, that's an idea that if it doesn't cross the partisan gap, we're in real trouble. Right? If the left and right can agree on that, we're in real trouble. So how do we change it? And I think you give me the storytellers, I'll give you the future. Reputedly, Aristotle said that. And I think that's true. If we tell people about this suffering, and get people to care, then maybe we can get the West to stop doing business the way we always have, and it will save lives, it will change lives for the better. And that's that's the calling.

Thomas Bowman

Matt, I'm curious. How did you come to know, Tom Garrett? What are the set of circumstances that brought you two together?

Matt Whitworth

I started working on a documentary series about the dysfunction of Congress. And we were really cold calling congressional offices trying to find members, either on the right or the left, who would be really candid about some of the problems plaguing D.C. and and the reasons that it's so ineffective. And we found very few members who are willing to be candid, and Tom was one of them. So we- that was a project that started off as a Facebook Watch series. We did five episodes, got 25 million views. And it led to a feature documentary deal with HBO. So we started filming brand new material, right after the midterm elections in 2018, which is when Tom left Congress, and then, "The Swamp," premiered last August as a feature documentary on HBO. But Tom was a was a great character for, "The Swamp," when it was a Facebook Watch series. And, and we sort of developed a friendship. And he struck me, the day I met him, as sort of this Anthony Bourdain style character. Obviously, we were talking about, you know, politics and Congress. But he had sort of a similar flair for history, and making these stories relatable, and expressing why this stuff matters. And that just led to a lot of conversations with Tom about religious and ethnic persecution around the world. And I just knew that that was something that was really important to him. I am someone who fancies myself to be a news junkie, you know, a political junkie, and I didn't even realize the severity of religious persecution around the world, just how pervasive of a problem this is. And that really led to Tom and I having a lot of conversations about, you know, could we make a documentary series where we go to all of these countries, and we expose what's going on there, we highlight the groups and some of these heroes who are on the ground, you know, trying to make this situation a little bit better day in and day out. And that's what led us to to Iraq and Syria the first time, and making the trailer for the series.

Michael Pope

So I want to be clear with our listeners, we are not previewing a documentary series that already exists and it is about to be released. This is an idea, right? Tom Garrett, tell us a little bit about the status of this project right now.

Tom Garrett

So I think, I'm gonna guess we've got three dozen hours of film, maybe more, because we shot multiple cameras. But yeah, it's an idea, again, that if somebody said, "How do you raise $3 million?" I said, "If 1% of Americans will give $1, we've got 3.3 million." But if these stories are told, America's either ignorant, or stupid, and ignorance is correctable, and stupid's lifelong, and I don't believe we're stupid, I just think we don't know. And I think if people understand the degree of suffering that one might face if they're born Yazidi in the wrong part of Syria, or Jewish in Yemen, where there used to be a huge Jewish population, relatively speaking, or Christian in Nigeria, the or they're gay in a different country in Africa or whatever, like they're being murdered. Right? And this country is awesome, right? I'm kind of biased, but we're flawed, and our foreign policy has been flawed since the end of the Second World War. We've kind of looked at strategic interests, and what's the most important thing, figured that out, and then said, "Everything else be damned." And what that's led to is, is a body count. And so for example, in the Cold War, we wanted to make sure that the Soviet fleet couldn't get out of the Black Sea through the Bosphorus to the Mediterranean. So we told the Turks, we want them in NATO, they said, cool. And then while they're our allies, they literally declared that the Kurdish ethnicity didn't exist, and started persecuting and murdering Kurds. And we turned a blind eye. If the American public knew that we were in bed with people who were murdering their minority populations, we wouldn't be in bed with him. But I don't think that means that we have to cede the Bosphorus, to the former Soviet Union. I think that that means that we have to, as a nation, and this transcends political party, right, should say, "We're not doing business with people who murder their minority communities, displace their minority communities." So yes, this is an idea. And the the bet is, that if we tell these stories well enough, that people will care, and that if the right people care, this is why- and I'm a Christian, right. But I will not do a series that does exclusively Christian persecution, I won't, because it will fail. We need to do what my Bible says we should do, and care about all people. So that's the idea here, that we do this series that we highlight persecution of minorities. When people know the truth, they'll demand their political leaders act differently. It transcends political party. And I believe, with every fiber of my being, Michael and Thomas, that there will be an incalculable number of people whose lives are improved and saved. So that's, that's the idea. And I believe it, I think we can do it.

Matt Whitworth

There's another piece of that too. And that is Hollywood would not make this series, because there are a lot of financial, monetary interest at stake for Hollywood for doing this series, right? They're not going to do a series that's critical of China, they're not going to do a series that's critical of India. And in both of those countries, religious persecution is institutionalized. So they're not going to make that series, and our bet is that, you know, if enough people see this trailer, understand what we're trying to do, that they'll step up and back it.

Tom Garrett

Right, I mean, I want to stay intensely vague, but literally, we've had entities say, "Well, we like it, but will you not talk bad about China?" And I'm like, "Well, that's kind of like doing a documentary on the Beatles and not talking about John." I mean, you can't do a human rights talk and not talk about China. So the crowdfunding is, it's that's where we are.

Thomas Bowman

You mentioned that you already have a lot of hours of film that you've already taken. I'm wondering, can you tell us about one of the stories that you've been able to capture, or would capture, that might be the feature of a future episode?

Tom Garrett

So the one that everybody who sees the footage, just jaw drop, Matt, I'd say the YPJ.

Matt Whitworth

Right. Yeah, I would agree with that.

Tom Garrett

I mean, you've got a force of women, primarily Kurdish and Yazidi, in Syria, who, politically, are affiliated with the far left, I don't care, because they're fighting for their lives, doesn't matter to me if they're human beings. And these women are combat soldiers on the ground, taking on some of the most dangerous missions against ISIS. And and we sat down with some of their members, one of whom had been freed from captivity for a couple of months, where she was a slave to ISIS, with unspeakable things done to her for three years. Another of whom was held for a year, watched her father and brothers beheaded, and was and she said, and I hope she's speaking hyperbolically, was sold 1000 times, tried to kill herself three times, tried to escape, and then came back, and picked up a rifle, and went to free her community. And when I got done speaking to her, through the translator, I got tears in my eyes, guys. And I looked at the camera, bad form for a presenter, and said, "She's a hero! She's a hero!" And she got tears in her eyes after the translator said what I said, and she said, "Thank you, but we're just trying to survive." What? Right? I mean, like, I get a flat tire, and I'm livid. Now I need to, in the words of, you know, IceCube, check myself before I wreck myself, that this is going on while we speak, or in the query gas refugee camp, where I'm meeting with 10 year olds who've been there for six years, and there's no hope in sight. They're not leaving, and the world's forgotten that they're there.

Matt Whitworth

We were staying at a military installation on the Syrian border. And this is almost a makeshift place, and sleeping on concrete floors for a couple of days, because we were embedded with the Peshmerga special forces. And these female soldiers come into the room, and they're taking off their body armor and their helmets, and they're putting their rifles down. And they're sharing stories about being in gunfights, being in combat with the Islamic State, and having the Islamic State surrender to them because in their warped ideology, they felt that if they were killed by a woman, they immediately went to hell. So they fought women more ferociously than they fought men. And a third of the forces that were on the ground fighting ISIS, were women, female combat battalions. And so these girls are sharing these stories. And I asked them, you know, "How old are you?" And they say, "Oh, I'm 20, I'm 21 years old." And for the past 5,6,7 years, even as teenagers, they've been in the trenches, fighting the Islamic State. And they're heroes. And they're really stories that just have not been told. And there are people like them, groups on the ground, in so many of these countries, working behind the scenes, working in the shadows, to try to make the situation a little bit better for millions of people.

Tom Garrett

That and the other one that comes to mind from that series of interviews, guys, again, that was very compelling was, what's your hope for the future? And the response was, "That's such a Western question." Right? They're just trying to get to tomorrow.

Thomas Bowman

Wow.

Michael Pope

Matt, I've got a filmmaker question for you. So in terms of putting a project together that's worth watching, and compelling, and people will want to stream, or watch, you want certain elements to be there. I think having Tom Garrett as action hero, certainly, totally a pull, right? I mean, anyone who's listened this far into the podcast realizes what kind of compelling a storyteller Tom Garrett is, but there's a challenge that you're gonna run into, which is that most Americans just do not care about foreign policy. And it's a challenge to get them to care about foreign policy. Talk a little bit about the dynamics of the storytelling, and the challenge, for you, to create a product that is going to be engaging and compelling?

Matt Whitworth

I think the biggest problem is so many of these stories are so abstract right now, right? I think that was the situation that people saw firsthand after Afghanistan, was that everyone knew it was a rough situation. And everyone knew that, you know, eventually the United States was going to pull out. And then it happened. And it was so chaotic. And the consequences of it have been so catastrophic. I think that changed the calculus for a lot of people with how they thought about Afghanistan. And I think that's true of any number of these countries. I think that until you can see it, you know, the severity of the situation, these tales of heroism, they just don't convey in an article. You have to see it in footage, you have to see it firsthand. You have to see, you know, the struggle in people's eyes. And you have to understand the history of why those people are in that position. And what are the solutions? Right? I think that when, you know, Tom messaged me and said, "I'm going to Iraq next week, can you come? Can you bring a film crew?" I was willing to take that risk, because I believed in Tom. And we got there. And we were in northern Iraq. And it was completely unlike anything that I expected. The people there were amongst the nicest that I've ever met before in my life. So I think a big compelling part of this series is going to be this shatters expectations of what these countries are like, of what the culture is like. And I think that element, in addition to Tom, and some of these other stories, I think that's going to hook an audience.

Michael Pope

And then how many, I mean, this is a documentary series that you're envisioning. Is there a set number? Or is this sort of indefinite, in terms of how many episodes it might be? I mean, do you have a number in mind in terms of how many episodes you want to crank out?

Matt Whitworth

The sad reality is there's no shortage of material for us to be able to pull from, right? So what we want to do, and for security reasons, we're not even listing, or saying publicly, the countries and the places that we're going to, because it's so high risk, and we have a couple of former Special Forces guys who are on our detail, we have a combat medic who travels with us, and we rely on local fixers. If I were doing the series with an HBO, or a Netflix, or an Amazon, it would be over a million an episode. We think, kind of leaning on our connections, and what we had to spend in Iraq and Syria, that it's going to be about half a million an episode. So we're going to try to raise 3 million for season one, via Indiegogo, do a crowdfunding campaign for it and see. The most successful crowdfunded media project of all time is a scripted series about Jesus's disciples called, "The Chosen," that's raised about $30 million to make three seasons. So I think there is a large group in the country who sort of feel underserved by traditional distributors, and I think this series will resonate with them. And going back to Anthony Bourdain, the number one rated show on CNN, before his death, was Anthony Bourdain series, "Parts Unknown." So I think that there is many people in the United States, and around the world, who are interested in seeing this. They're interested in the stories of what's happening around the world. They're interested in the cultural aspects of it. And they need a storyteller to to share it with them.

Tom Garrett

Prejudice is based in ignorance, right? And so you get out there and start meeting people, and realize that we have so much more in common. In America right now, we're so polarized, it's disgusting. I should be able to have dinner with anybody, regardless of who either of us voted for for President. If we can get these messages out, we can make a positive difference, I think.

Thomas Bowman

And we think so too. So, Tom, Matt, does this project have a name, or a working title yet?

Matt Whitworth

So the working title for it is, "Exile."

Thomas Bowman

"Exile." So where can people go to find more information about, "Exile," or contribute to the crowdfunding?

Matt Whitworth

Exileseries.com.

Tom Garrett

Yeah, I mean, again, I mean, I- this is, we're throwing the dice, but I think, I really think we can do something that matters. I really do.

Thomas Bowman

So that's all for this episode. Hit us up on social media or get in touch at transitionvirginia.com. There, you can check the transcript for this episode and find the links to support the show on Patreon. Special thanks to Emily Cottrell who transcribes every one of these so they're accessible to everyone.

Michael Pope

Thanks for listening to Transition Virginia. If you like what you heard, give us a five star review. It helps other people find the show. We'll be back next week, so subscribe to the show so you don't miss a single episode.

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