Michael Pope
Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the transition of power from Republican to Democrat. My name is Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman
And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, we're gonna be taking a look at paid sick leave and paid quarantine leave. And we've got the best panel to dig into this topic, to peek behind the curtain, and expose what's really going on. We're joined by Kim Bobo, Executive Director of the Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy. Kim, thanks for joining us.

Kim Bobo
Thank you so much for inviting me on the podcast.

Thomas Bowman
We are glad to have you. And we're also joined by Audra Grassia, Executive Director of Freedom Virginia, a new nonprofit, created to work for economic justice and building democracy. Freedom Virginia is part of a coalition called Virginians For Paid Sick Days. Audra, thanks for joining us.

Audra Grassia
Thank you. It's great to be here.

Michael Pope
So the rise and fall of paid sick days actually happened earlier this year, before the pandemic hit. And we'll get into the backstory of that in the next segment. For now though, I want to focus on the Special Session that's happening right now. Delegate Elizabeth Guzman has a bill that requires employers to offer paid quarantine leave, so not paid sick days, but paid quarantine days. So if you get COVID-19, or your child gets it, or you need to quarantine because you've been exposed, you would be entitled to two weeks of paid quarantine leave. Here's Delegate Guzman talking about her bill.

Elizabeth Guzman
Many of these workers are in frontline jobs, preparing our food and sanitizing buildings with no benefits. These are the heroes who have kept our country running. And they should not have to lose their paycheck if they get COVID-19.

Michael Pope
Now this bill, one of the catches to this bill, is that it would only apply to businesses that have 25 or more employees, which would exempt like more than 90% of businesses in Virginia. Kim Bobo, I know had kind of a roller coaster of a time with this bill during the Special Session. Is this version of the bill exempting these companies that have 25 or more employees? Is this really worth it?

Kim Bobo
Well, Michael, as you probably know, we would have preferred that there were no exemptions for the size of businesses and that all workers would have been covered. But indeed, the Speaker, and Delegate Guzman, and other leaders in the House really worked to get this number, which originally started at exempting businesses with 50 employees or less. So again, it was a good compromise bill, and really will help 10s of thousands, potentially several hundred thousand workers in Virginia. Now most people won't take it because they don't need it, but this will help certainly more workers than then had it before. So it's a good first step.

Thomas Bowman
We did a crossover episode with the the Bold Dominion Podcast where I characterized this Special session as former slave owning industries deciding what benefits to extend to the labor they still own. Now, Senator Favola introduced a bill, for the Special Session, to create paid sick days. It was limited to the duration of the pandemic. It was limited to full time employees, and it was limited to businesses with more than 20 employees and the business community still hated it. Here's Nicole Riley with the National Federation of Independent Businesses.

Nicole Riley
Virginia employers are already required under both federal and state regulations at this point to provide paid sick leave. And of course, many of our members have taken steps to accommodate our employees. And so we just think that putting in a third layer could add a lot of confusion.

Thomas Bowman
All right, business groups have latched on to this idea that paid sick days is somehow confusing. What do you make of that line of argument?

Audra Grassia
The only thing that's confusing here is why there's any organized opposition to this bill when 83% of Virginians support paid sick days. One of the reasons we need a paid sick day standard is to reduce confusion, especially during a pandemic, when there's already so much uncertainty. We need a paid sick day standard that ensures workers can comply with public health officials recommendations. This policy will help provide businesses with clear guidance they need to recover and stay open during a pandemic. There's really nothing confusing about it.

Michael Pope
So Senate Democrats have been reluctant to get on board with this when the Commerce and Labor Committee met at the beginning of the Special Session to consider Senator Favola's bill. It was not Republicans that killed the bill, it was Democrats. Now some of the no votes were from the pro business wing of the Democratic Party. People you would expect to vote against paid sick days. People like Dick Saslaw or Creigh Deeds or George Barker, or Lynwood Lewis, but the bill also was opposed by Lionell Spruill and Louise Lucas, and even Scott Surovell. Here's Senator Surovell, in that committee meeting, talking about his thoughts on the bill.

Scott Surovell
I've had a lot of businesses reach out to me in the last eight hours, very freaked out by this because of how fast it's coming and how late it's coming. I've had people texting me who I haven't heard from in 10 years, telling me that this is going to require them to have to hire more employees. If people take sick leave through the end of the year, it's going to run up their cost the business not only to have to pay the sick leave, but have to hire more people to cover the people who call in sick.

Michael Pope
Now, Kim Bobo, when Senator Surovell started speaking against the bill, I think everybody knew this thing was a sinking ship. Is he right that this happened too fast? Did it come in too late?

Kim Bobo
The idea of having paid sick days during a pandemic should not have been too fast or too late for anybody. We clearly need that, as a poll that Audra was talking about earlier indicates, it indicates that both Republicans and Democratic voters support having paid sick days. So I don't think it's too fast and too late for the public. Now perhaps it's a little too fast for some in the Senate. I think part of what's going on behind the scenes, though, is there was a concern that they only wanted to focus on COVID related matters. And to the extent this bill had a broader reach, in terms of the general paid sick day piece, I think people were concerned about it. There were edits on the bill to the last minute. And that was partly trying to deal with some of the feedback we were getting from senators so there was a lot of back and forth. And frankly, no one could figure out what the process was going to be during this Special Session. And so in fact, lots of bills got in and were seen very late. So there's some truth to that, in terms of the bills being late, but not because of the issue. The issue is not too fast and too late. And I think what we're going to see in Senate Commerce and Labor is the vast majority of them, and certainly, Spruill and Lucas and these legislators, they support paid sick days or paid quarantine bill. They voted for it before. All of these legislators have voted for it before, but there were some concerns during this particular Session. And I think those legislators in particular, and Senator Surovell and Senator Saslaw, and some of the others, they want to be involved in shaping this. And so I think one of the lessons going forward, not just for this Special Session, but for next year, is we've really got to work with these senators on shaping something. But I think these Democrats need to understand that 96% of Democratic voters in Virginia, think we need paid sick day policy. So I think that should be a message that comes to them fast and furious.

Audra Grassia
I would just add that in any Legislative process, you'll have a vocal minority sometimes making a lot of noise but at the end of the day, there are businesses that are getting on board. And not only are they doing the right thing already, but they are supporting the concept and the idea of paid sick days. So I think, you know, one of the challenges we'll have moving forward is to make sure that those business leaders are heard and highlighted, and thanked for their support of policies that are really good for their workers.

Kim Bobo
Yeah, actually, let me add on with that, in that the vast majority of businesses in Virginia actually do offer paid sick days, right? And so we have a pattern where most do, but you know, there's a sizable minority that don't and it's really those businesses that we want to encourage through a standard to offer it, and other states where they have offered paid sick days, there were similar fights and similar comments like you heard from the NFIB who said, "Oh, you know, the sky is gonna fall if we have to do it. It's too confusing, whatever." But after the policy had been in place, businesses found it was good for them. It was healthy for their businesses and healthy for the economy, and it did not cause disruption and difficulty for businesses. So this is one of those policies that we just need to put it in place because it's the right thing to do and it will be good for business and good for the economy.

Thomas Bowman
One of these sticking points here is the price tag to the government for their own employees. This situation is tough for government because it presents them with the same conflict of interest as a business, the conflict between the love of their budgets and love of humanity. This is a situation that calls for wisdom. Kim Bobo of Virginia Interfaith, what wisdom can communities of faith offer to policymakers in this situation?

Kim Bobo
Well, what communities of faith have said is that we have to care for our workers, care for our neighbors, and when we do that, we care for the entire community. And so I think if we bring that to Virginia, and a requirement, a standard for all businesses, it's absolutely the right moral thing. And it's a good thing for businesses, but it makes economic sense for both businesses and the society. Because if I run a small business, and one of my workers comes to work sick because they have no paid sick days, or no paid quarantine, and they get everybody else sick in the business, then I have to shut down completely. So it's one of those things that really may feel like it adds cost, but in fact, it may well save costs for businesses in the long run.

Thomas Bowman
Kim, the Legislature, if we can drill down more specifically, most of them identify as Christians, including Chairman of House Appropriations, Pastor Luke Torian. Kim, what would Jesus do?

Kim Bobo
Well, you know, I try not to say exactly on public policies what Jesus would do, because I think it's it, you know, we have to have a little humbleness here in this question. We know that Jesus commanded us to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to visit those who are sick and in prison. And we know that caring for our neighbors is really the second commandment, right? It's so essential to what it means to be Christian. And so, we've tried to work on public policies that help bring that care of neighbor, love of neighbor, into this society. We certainly believe that offering paid sick days is one of those things, and in fact, no one in the Legislature, that I have heard of, thinks paid sick days isn't a good idea, that workers need that. Everyone agrees on that. The place where we disagree is on whether that should be a requirement and a standard that we as a society set. And I would say in the same way that we as a society decided that we need a standard on no child labor. And we need a standard that there's a bottom line minimum wage that workers deserve, I think we need a standard on paid sick days. And so I think it flows from the principle of love of neighbor, care of neighbor. But I think we have to be a little careful on, you know, will this policy be what Jesus would do?

Thomas Bowman
That's completely fair. Thank you for humoring me.

Michael Pope
Audra, I'm wondering about next steps. So now that the House has passed this paid quarantine leave bill, it's not a paid sick days bill, it's a paid quarantine leave bill, which actually kind of seems tailor made to fit the wants and desires of the Senate. Are we expecting any kind of pushback? Or does it seem really likely that the Senate would sign on to what got out of the House, in terms of Guzman's bill?

Audra Grassia
Well, I'm not going to pretend that I can read the senators mind's who initially opposed this bill. I think we're certainly hopeful that we've done our homework and done the work behind the scenes to encourage their support. But it is unpredictable in this time of where folks priorities are. So we will we will see what they decide.

Michael Pope
Kim Bobo, let me ask you the same question. Now that Guzman's bill has gotten out of the House, in a much weaker, watered down version, are we expecting the Senate to sign on to that or can we expect more drama during the Special Session?

Kim Bobo
Honestly, I don't know. I am hopeful that the Commerce and Labor Committee will hear this bill, and will take it seriously, and not water it down. I am hopeful, but I think we don't know. Again, I agree with Audra that we've done the work. It's clear what voters are saying in general about the concept of paid sick days, that they want it. Republicans and Democrats want this. And I do think it's important to recognize that it's not just the Democrats. We want the Republican votes on this as well. We did get two Republican votes the first time in the Senate from Senator Kiggans and Vogel, we would love to have their vote again on this. We would love this to be a bipartisan proposal. And so that's what we're hoping for.

Thomas Bowman
Great. Well, let's take a break. We're joined by Kim Bobo with the Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy and Audra Grassia with Freedom Virginia. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the past and future of paid sick days.

Michael Pope
And we're back on Transition Virginia. We're joined by Kim Bobo, Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy and Audra Grassia with Freedom Virginia. Now we're gonna get into the time machine and travel back to the earlier part of 2020. I know that seems like a very long time ago, maybe a distant planet. But way back in January, when the General Assembly Session began, advocates were really hopeful that paid sick days was finally something they were going to be able to make happen, and that they were going to get this requirement for most businesses to offer paid sick days. The original number that the advocates were looking at was five employees. So if you're a business that have five employees or more, you would have this requirement that you had to offer paid sick days. But then Governor Ralph Northam entered the debate, and suggested that the requirement apply to businesses that have 25 employees or more. So that was a proposal that would have exempted 90% of businesses in Virginia. So Democrats in the General Assembly had a counter offer, that the requirement applied to business that have 15 employees or more. So lawmakers were looking at different numbers in terms of what they wanted to require, should the requirement apply to businesses that had five employees or more, 15 employees or more, 25 employees or more. As lawmakers were debating all of this, I had an opportunity to corner the Governor, at the Executive mansion, and I tried to get him to take a position on the issue, but he kept saying, he just kept saying he was looking at the issue, and he wouldn't really commit too much more than that.

Ralph Northam
You know, that's, that's part of my job is to to look at those bills and do what's in the best interest of Virginia. So that's what I plan to do.

Michael Pope
So you're not sure yet. So earlier in the Session, you were 25. And now you're not sure?

Ralph Northam
Well, we, you know, like I said, there are a lot of bills that are coming to me and I will look at all of them and do what's in the best interest of Virginia.

Michael Pope
Now, it was only a few days later that the bill fell apart on the last day of the General Assembly Session. Here's an exchange between Senator Chap Peterson and Senator Barbara Favola, just before the bill died. Now Peterson, in this audio you'll hear Peterson is making the case that part time workers in his law firm don't deserve paid sick days.

Chap Peterson
So once they have vested and once they've accumulated the 30 hours, and they work for me eight hours a week, and the other 160 hours are their free time, and they need to take a child to the doctor's office or what have you, they can use the eight hours they're working for me, to run that errand, as opposed to the 160 hours that they have their own time, and be paid for it.

Lt. Gov.
Senator has the floor.

Barbara Favola
Mr. President, I would say that being the generous and kind individual that you are, I would expect you'd have some paid time off policy which would probably accommodate this.

Michael Pope
Well as it turns out, that was one of the last things that was said about this before it died a quiet death, which is they just sent it away and never even voted on this bill. This was all kinds of strange, I have to admit, because this is a bill that passed the House, it passed the Senate, advocates were really hopeful to get it to the Governor's desk. They were kind of arguing about the contours of exactly what they wanted to send to the Governor. Kim Bobo, what the heck happened?

Kim Bobo
Well, Michael, I think several things were happening. First, I think the business lobbyists, the NFIB, and and the Manufacturer's Association, and the Poultry Association, and the Retail Federation, and the Restaurant Association, they kind of made this bill their line in the sand, that they, you know, they kind of realized that they were going to have to accept an increase in the minimum wage, there was so much momentum on this one. And so I think, frankly, people didn't quite realize when we got bills through for both the House and Senate the first time, that this was really moving, and the business lobby just went all out on that, on this issue. And that, then caused many of the Republicans to just make this sort of a line in the sand. And some of the Republicans who voted for it before, like Senator Vogel and Senator Kiggans, were just hammered. And they were told things that simply weren't true. They were told things like they would lose thousands of businesses, and that people would be so confused, and they would lose benefits for everybody. I mean, there were just all these outrageous things that were said, but in a way that really caused confusion, in fact, for the Republicans. And then I think that the third problem that we had was that the Democrats were not on one accord on this one. They were different opinions on what the bill should look like. And we had not been able to get the Democrats all on board on something that they could agree on. And, you know, the Democrats in the Senate are different and particularly on that all important Commerce and Labor Committee, we did not have agreement among that committee and we clearly needed to. And I think there's two other things, though that happened here. There's also kind of a stale ideology that's just wrong in Virginia, and that is that in order to be good for business, you have to be bad for workers. And other states have shown you can be both good for business and good for workers. And so that old, stale ideology is one that I think we have to break through for both Republicans and businesses, Republicans, Democrats, businesses, everybody needs to start thinking that when we do things that are good for workers, we are also doing things that are good for business. And then at the final, final vote where this went down, I think money was the excuse. There were questions raised, which I think were not fair, but money is often used as an excuse to kill things when people don't want something to go through. Again, you can get the money you need if people really want something to happen. And when you don't want something to happen, you either send it to the Appropriations Committee so they can kill it, or you use money excuses as the way to kill it. And so I think money, in this instance, was really just an excuse, because there was not agreement, particularly among the Commerce and Labor Committee members about what kind of bill to move forward. I want to say though, that we don't want to get in this fight like we did last year between 5 and 25 and 15. Honestly, we need a bill like the Colorado Bill, which basically does not exempt any size business. Everyone is covered in their bill and that's what we should do. That Colorado passed this recently, Virginia could pass something like that. Now, they did do a delayed enactment for small businesses, so they get to phase it in over a year. But I think the Colorado Bill that covers everyone, that leaves no one behind, is really what we need in Virginia. And so we are hoping to go forward with a bill for the next General Assembly, the regular Session, that would cover everybody. It would really be modeled on what what Colorado did just recently, and, and let's not do this fight between exempting 15 or 20, or 25 or 5 or whatever. Let's not exempt anybody. Let's have all workers covered by a very modest paid sick standard of five days.

Thomas Bowman
In the very last in person episode of Transition Virginia, we got a chance to sit down with Senator Surovell and he gave us his take on the inside story of what happened to that bill. Here is Scott Surovell talking about paid sick leave.

Scott Surovell
What didn't come out on the Floor, was that Senator Newman actually started asking questions to Senator Favola about it, and pointed out the fiscal impact on the Commonwealth, because the Commonwealth was not accepted from it, and as soon as he pointed out that this had a 10 or 20 or $30 million budget impact on the state budget, the Senate Finance Chairman took the bill by and that's when it never came back.

Thomas Bowman
The economic impact he's talking about is the cost to Virginia of offering paid sick days to state workers. Why do people who say they're Democrats believe that part time workers are less deserving of paid sick days than full time employees who mostly get them already?

Audra Grassia
Well, look, I think this really comes down to not considering the fiscal impact of not implementing a paid sick days policy, especially in COVID times, which as we all seem to agree, will never end. Consider the cost to businesses and to the economy when businesses have to shut their doors because of an outbreak in their establishment, or the cost to pay for health care for part time workers that may not have health care through their employers, or for unemployment when the they get sick and then can't keep their job because they can't show up to work. I think even if there was a nominal cost to the state to implement a paid sick days policies for its workers, the economic benefits likely significantly outweigh that. There's that old saying that tell me your values and show me your budget. And I think this is one of those places where we really need to demonstrate our values by implementing a paid sick days policy.

Kim Bobo
And on the part time question, there are some situations that like there are some very high paid, very part time nurse people who go in you know the work an extra day here or there where they have a choice on it. You know, again, trying to figure out how to exempt them is fine. But an awful lot of people who work part time jobs, work multiple part time jobs because they can't find a full time job. Or they are juggling doing childcare or family care and working a part time job. They need paid sick days. And so we need a policy, again like Colorado's, that really doesn't exempt most part time workers, that really covers part time workers. Now it's it's not quite as many hours as full time workers, but part time workers need paid sick time off as well.

Michael Pope
I want to circle back around to this Colorado model, Kim, that you were just talking about. What makes you think that you can persuade the Senate Democrats that didn't want to move forward with paid sick days when it applied to businesses that had 15 employees or more, what makes you think you can talk them into a paid sick days policy that applies to every business without exemption?

Kim Bobo
Well, I am sure that I personally cannot talk them into this. But they do represent voters and they do have people in their districts who want paid sick days. And so I think our challenge over the next few months is to have them talking and hearing from hundreds and thousands of voters in their districts about that they want paid sick days. I think they are all good legislators. I mean, these legislators, I am so impressed with how hard they work. And no one does it for the money, right? Because they don't get paid very much, and they work crazy hours, and they're bombarded all the time by people. So they do it because they really want to represent their districts. They really want what's best for Virginia. And so I think when they listen to their constituents, they will recognize that their constituents really want this. As Audra knows, from the poll that we did, the numbers are off the charts in terms of both Republicans and Democrats who want Virginia to have a paid sick day standard.

Audra Grassia
Yeah, and I would just underscore the broad support that Kim was talking about. I mean, we think about some groups being more conservative or some groups being more liberal, but that's just not the case when it comes to this policy. It really does have bipartisan support, even across demographic groups. And just for example, even among the 65 plus crowds, 77% support paid sick days legislation, even though they are the most likely to be retirees. They might not even benefit from a paid sick days policy, but they want to see paid sick days pass because they're the most at risk if a restaurant worker or their home health care worker comes into work sick, so we really need to help, you know, mobilize these voices and make them heard for the next round of this.

Thomas Bowman
Typically, when a Virginia Governor wants a bill or policy to pass, we'd expect to see a series of statements and activities from that office, intended to ratchet up public pressure on the Legislature. How would you characterize the support you've received from the Governor's office? And are you satisfied with it?

Kim Bobo
We would like to see a lot more from the Governor. He is a governor who is a physician, he knows the importance of paid sick days, he understands these issues. He has not yet made this a priority for his administration. We would love to have his leadership on this going forward. And I think, you know, he's had a lot on his platter and I am sympathetic for all that he's had to handle as as Governor, but we would hope that he would make this a priority and it would be terrific if he would.

Michael Pope
Alright, well, let's take a break. When we come back, we're going to have question time.

Thomas Bowman
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And we're back. This is my favorite segment. It's question time. So question time is where we solicit questions from our Patreon patrons. These are people who actually pay the podcast, they support our work, and they want to see us do more of it. So the very first question is from friend of the podcast, Harrison Roday.

Harrison Roday
For those of us who support paid sick leave, how do we advocate for that goal and get it accomplished in a way that continues to allow the Commonwealth to be a great place for companies to want to locate if they perceive this business policy to be potentially negative to their bottom lines?

Kim Bobo
The first thing is, everyone who wants a paid sick day policy needs to contact your legislators, particularly your senator. You need to tell your senator, "We want a paid sick day policy that covers all workers in Virginia." If you want to get into the weeds, you can say, "We want a paid sick day policy like the Colorado policy." But talk with them. email them, write them. If they have a community forum, go to the forum and ask questions about paid sick days. Let them know that you care about this.

Audra Grassia
I was going to add that I think we can advocate for this in a way that demonstrates that Virginia is particularly good for businesses to locate. A paid sick days policy puts businesses, especially small businesses on the more even playing field with their bigger competitors by allowing this benefit. I think that a lot of employers will be surprised by how little a paid sick days policy actually costs to implement because employees really only take it when they genuinely need it. So I think, you know, making this the argument that this is actually good for business's bottom line, and again, it's the right thing to do, is really important as we move forward.

Michael Pope
All right, our next question is about a poll conducted by YouGov, For Virginians For Paid Sick Days, it showed overwhelming support. 96% of Democrats support a paid sick day policy in Virginia, even 72% of Republicans support the policy. Friend of the podcast, Sam, is wondering why that kind of support is not moving the Senate Commerce and Labor Committee.

Sam
With an overwhelming majority of Virginians supporting paid sick leave, based on recent polling data, and businesses, especially the smaller ones, strongly opposed to it, it seems that a bipartisan majority of the Senate Committee that voted it down, are either tone deaf or are not in step with the transition to a Democratic majority in the Commonwealth. Is that a fair assessment?

Michael Pope
Are all those senators tone deaf?

Audra Grassia
Well, what I would say is that this really comes down again to a vocal minority of very well funded lobbyists getting in the ears of legislators and policymakers who have tended to be a little bit more deferential to big businesses. I think they really haven't had a chance to hear from the vast majority of Virginians who believe that this policy is really necessary. And I think it's also become more urgent to Virginians, especially with COVID. So I think this presents another opportunity for us to rally the grassroots, and to organize our communities, and to organize the businesses who are already doing the right thing, and who support this legislation, to make sure that they're also hearing from those of us who don't have deep pockets.

Kim Bobo
And in fact, 84% of businesses provide this benefit already to their full time workers. A lower number for part time workers, but most businesses are already doing this. And so these lobbyists that suggest that businesses can't do this, most businesses are doing it. We just need to make sure that all do it in a very fair and equal way.

Thomas Bowman
Our last question comes from Ian Heinz in Spotsylvania, Virginia. He is pointing out the differences in the, mostly the construction industry, but between general contractors and subcontractors, and often subcontract or general contractors rather will hire teams of subcontractors to keep their own in house employees below those arbitrary thresholds, and so he has a question as to whether those subcontractors, working under the direction of the same general contractor, would qualify for paid sick leave.

Ian Heinz
Will any quarantine leave payment be subject to the joint employer ruling of the Fair Labor Standards Act? For example, could the employees of various subcontractors with less than 25 workers under the direction of the same general contractor, potentially qualify for paid leave?

Kim Bobo
That's a really good question. I honestly don't know the answer. There's nothing in the bill that directly addresses this question of contractors and subcontractors. So we will need to figure that one out. That's a very good question. Thank you, Ian.

Michael Pope
Kim, and Audra, can you tell our listeners a little bit more about how they can find out more about your organizations?

Audra Grassia
Absolutely. I would say the first place you should go to is VApaidsickdays.org which is our coalition website. And then you can find out more about Freedom Virginia at freedomva.org.

Kim Bobo
And at VirginiaInterfaithCenter.org, all spelled out, Virginia Interfaith Center, if you want to be involved in this campaign, as well as others, but Virginia Paid Sick Days is really the place to get a lot of the background information on this.

Thomas Bowman
Excellent. Well, that's all for this episode. If you have comments or questions about what you just heard, or maybe you only want to tell us what you think about the show, write an email and send it to us at TransitionVApodcast@gmail.com so we could read it on the air. Subscribe to Transition Virginia anywhere pods are cast, and you can follow the Transition team on Twitter @TransitionVA. Find us on the web at transitionvirginia.com. Don't forget to like and subscribe so you can enjoy our next episode of Transition Virginia.