Michael Pope

Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the transition of power from Republican to Democrat. My name is Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, reefer madness, the devil's wheat, Mary Jane. Yes, we're going to talk about pot. Earlier this year, Virginia decriminalized marijuana and the Old Dominion will soon legalize marijuana. To dig into this issue, we have a dynamite panel. We're joined by the leading force behind decriminalization, the voice who made it happen, the Executive Director at Virginia NORML, Jenn Michelle Pedini. Thank you for joining us.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

My pleasure, Thomas.

Michael Pope

We're also joined by journalist whose work you might have heard on NPR, or whose work you might have read in the Daily Beast or in Rolling Stone. He's just launched a new site called The News Station, that's a national alt weekly exploring the intersection of the war on drugs, social justice, and national politics. Matt Laslo, thanks for joining us.

Matt Laslo

Anytime, brother.

Michael Pope

Great. So the big picture here for Virginia is that after years of fighting and struggling, the Commonwealth has finally decriminalized marijuana, not legalized marijuana, at least not yet, but decriminalized marijuana. Jenn Michelle Pedini, you were the force that made that happen, as Thomas said. What exactly does decriminalization mean for Virginia?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

That's a very generous characterization of me, but thank you. So decriminalization, and in this context for using it as a state policy word, it means to substitute a criminal penalty with some type of generally civil penalty, this could be a fine, it could be a warning, it could be even something like community service, but generally it means to remove a criminal penalty and substitute it with some lesser civil penalty.

Michael Pope

And Matt Laslo, I'm wondering about the experience in other states. When other states have decriminalized marijuana, what kind of pitfalls have happened, or what kind of benefits have they seen?

Matt Laslo

And that's the funny thing about, you know, I'm here in Washington, like everything these days just get sucked into this stupidly hyper partisan lens. So like, if you talk to some conservatives from some of these states that have decriminalized or quote, unquote, legalized locally, you know, there's just these talking points that are out there that are stale. And one thing we're doing with our site, The News Station, is we're really trying to like actually do what NORML has been doing for years, like really hone in on those research studies, because like new science and new data, and research is coming out all the time. So it's basically, we've seen for most states, pretty resounding, you know, success. There's not a ton of kids using it. That's a false talking point. Every state is actually actively working to make sure that, just like alcohol, you can't imbibe unless you're 21, etc. And also, now, criminal justice reform has become a part of this, Illinois, was kind of the leader on that. So now a bunch of other states are going back, like Colorado and Oregon, some of the initial states to decriminalize, they are now kind of kicking themselves and saying, "Ooh, we put a lot of that money into the local police forces," which right now, as you may have heard, is not quite in vogue any longer. So I think Virginia, coming in, when it's poised to come in, is going to bode well, because you guys are set up to really learn from everyone else's mistakes.

Thomas Bowman

Jenn Michelle, what kind of decrim numbers are you seeing at Virginia NORML?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Decriminalization, you know, not a solution for prohibition, but it is an incremental step that frankly, most states are willing to take before they get to legalizing adult use. And what we are seeing is roughly a 50% reduction in arrests, post decriminalization. What we aren't seeing is any shift in the disparate and enforcement of those marijuana laws between Black and white Americans, that that disparity, that racial disparity and arrests still lingers after decriminalization. And in Virginia, what this translates into, hopefully, is about 15,000 fewer arrests per year. Prior to this law taking effect on July 1, Virginia was spending over 100 million taxpayer dollars, enforcing the policy that frankly, they didn't support, and arresting upwards of 30,000 Virginians every year for marijuana possession.

Michael Pope

So the Democrats took control of the House of Delegates and the State Senate earlier this year, and took action on decriminalizing after, you know, assuming power after a generation of not being in power, this is sort of the theme of our podcast, Transition Virginia's about that transition of power. One thing the Democrats tried to do, though, is walk this line of saying they were going to decriminalize marijuana, but they're not encouraging anyone to use it. In fact, it is still illegal. I talked to House Majority Leader Charniele Herring about this, it was her bill that accomplished all of this. And this is how she explained it.

Charniele Herring

Well, I mean, there's still a civil penalty. I don't think it encourages drug use. But the reality is that people are using marijuana and that the arrests are disproportionate. And so this is an attempt to address that.

Michael Pope

Matt Laslo, I'm curious about the politics of this, and Democrats trying to walk this line of, you know, trying to be in favor of criminal justice reform, and yet, at the same time, not seeming like they don't care about law and order. How do they...how are Democrats trying to walk this line?

Matt Laslo

When you ask me about the politics of it, I almost laugh, because when you look at polling, even in Mitch McConnell, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, if you look at his home state of Kentucky, one poll that came out showed that 90% of Republicans in Kentucky supported medicinal marijuana. And so right there, this isn't a partisan issue at all. And Pew studies show that about two thirds of Americans support legalization in one form or another, mostly medicinal, and it's not really split on a partisan line, which is why the politicians here in Washington are so far behind on these states, and voters on the ground, who did bypass Washington because Washington's gridlocked and worthless. So now we have 11 states and the District of Columbia that have legalized recreational weed, because they gave up on Congress, like many other advocacy groups have done for a list of other issues.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Well, we're not giving up here in Virginia. And not only did we decriminalize personal possession with up to one ounce of marijuana on July 1, the state also legalized participation in its medical cannabis program on July 1. The pretty two extraordinary steps forward for the Commonwealth and and all in one fell swoop, once that sort of trifecta of power was in place in the Legislature.

Thomas Bowman

Jenn Michelle, can I ask you a question about strategy here for decrim? Why go for decriminalization first before legalization?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

This is a public policy issue that had been before the Legislature many, many times. I mean, it was a multi year haul to get this issue some serious face time and ultimately was one that Governor Northam ended up campaigning on. So it was a priority for his administration. And what we do here in Virginia is take any win we can get.

Michael Pope

One of the topics of debate when the House of Delegates was considering this was the potential pitfalls of decriminalizing without legalizing, and the precarious situation that put Virginia in. One of the Republicans who gave voice to this was Delegate Nick Rush, and I spoke to him during the Session and this is part of our conversation.

Nick Rush

So what you're doing is setting people up for failure. You're creating a larger market and then punishing the people that supply that. I mean, either the better route would be either legalization or what we're doing now.

Michael Pope

Do you support legalization?

Nick Rush

I haven't come to that conclusion yet. I am obviously still studying that issue. It's not it hasn't been in a committee that I've been in front of, but I would rather legalize then do what we're doing now.

Michael Pope

Jenn Michelle Pedini, what do you make of this kind of argument we heard from Republicans that legalization would be better because decriminalizing without legalizing is creating this gray area, but they also are not really sure if they want to support legalization or not. What do you make of that?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

I've heard this time and time again. And listen, I totally agree with Delegate Rush. Decriminalization is not a public policy solution to prohibition. What is is legalizing and regulating responsible adult use and doing the harms that the failed policy has inflicted on Virginians. Now, while he, you know, voiced his perhaps unintentional preference for that policy issue, the majority of his colleagues didn't support that in the 2020 Session, and the administration was favorable to decriminalization, so that's the policy that we were able to advance. But we did take some, you know, what most would consider extraordinary steps forward towards advancing the policy of legalization in the next Session.

Thomas Bowman

I would point out to Delegate Rush that this is not new information. Back when Kirk Cox was the Speaker, he appointed my former boss, Paul Krizek to a committee studying Marijuana Policy, and they found, in the Republican years, that legalization is far easier and far less complex with far fewer disparities than decrim, which you still have to have some kind of code for, criminal threshold over an ounce. To your point earlier, Jenn Michelle, about there still being a disparity, these are all impacts that the Legislature knew would happen.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Yeah, they absolutely are. Because as you mentioned, in 2017, the Virginia State Crime Commission did conduct a study on decriminalization and came to those same policy conclusions that this is a minor step. And it's a step that will reduce criminalization, but it won't address the systemic application of these laws systemically injust application of marijuana laws.

Matt Laslo

The Jimmy Shelton's zero bill in Congress, in the United States Capitol Building right now, that's an actual legalization bill, aren't all of them kind of technically decriminalization bills? And what's that difference?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Well look, like we talked about state policy and federal policy, we may now be using inadvertently similar terms, but federal legalization is really the same as federal decriminalization, for all intents and purposes. The only way the United States can legalize marijuana, as it were at the federal level, is to decriminalize marijuana at the federal level, and that means to remove marijuana from the Federal Controlled Substances Act and allow states to set their own policies free from federal interference.

Michael Pope

You know, one of the members of the Virginia Delegation who has been, who was in favor of this in the past, was former Congressman Tom Garrett, who was an advocate for removing marijuana from the Controlled Substances Schedule. When he was in Congress, of course, he's not in Congress anymore, I spoke to him about this when he was in Congress, and this is what he told me.

Tom Garrett

The reality of a Schedule One Controlled Substance definition is, no redeeming medical use, that's detached from science. In reality, we know there are areas where there's just IV intolerance and dealing with chemotherapy, chronic pain management, intractable epilepsy, glaucoma, that marijuana and marijuana derivatives can help.

Michael Pope

Matt Laslo, do you miss Congressman Garrett?

Matt Laslo

I do. And I'm thinking of the anecdote when he told me, you know, he had some struggles with substance abuse, but he did tell me, he would not come over to my place and smoke marijuana with me. But he told me, as a good fiscal conservative, if I dropped a bag of weed in front of him, he would surely pick it up.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

I miss Tom.

Matt Laslo

Haha, I miss him too.

Thomas Bowman

Michael, do you want to take a break and then we can come back and we'll talk about legalization?

Michael Pope

Sounds good to me.

Thomas Bowman

All right. Well, let's do that. We've got Jenn Michelle Pedini with NORML, we've got Matt Laslo with The News Station. We'll be right back.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia. We're talking about marijuana, decriminalizing marijuana, which Virginia has already done and potentially even legalizing marijuana, which Virginia is on the verge of doing. Jenn Michelle Pedini, there is a study that's going on right now, that's going to be completed later this year in advance of the upcoming General Assembly Session, that is about legalization, and it's not about whether or not legalization should happen. It's about how legalization should happen. Right? Walk us inside of that study and what we can expect from it.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Well, I think you nailed it right there. It is, in fact, how Virginia might best go about legalizing adult use, it is not a whether the common rule should or shouldn't, or whether marijuana is good or bad. It's just what is really the best policy approach for the state of Virginia? For example, what's the best tax rate for cannabis in the Commonwealth? We don't, of course, want it to be taxed so high that it simply re-incentivizes engaging with the illicit market, then you also want it to, you know, have a tax benefit to, to the state. What might be the best number of retail sites for the state of Virginia? What's the appropriate regulatory structure, we already have vertical licenses issued in the states for medical providers, and there's not really an appetite to maintain this vertical requirement. And something that's very specific in this study, is a call to look at what the state of Illinois did. So every state, you know, presumably tries their best with legalization and we seem to be getting better and better each iteration that we we see unfold, and the state that seems to have gotten it, at least the most right up to this point, is Illinois, because they were very thoughtful and specific in including a restorative justice components to their bill. So the study does ask for a specific look at Illinois, and a look at how Virginia will include restorative justice from the get go, so that like other states, we are having to go back and say, "Oh, we forgot about people with criminal records, we should probably expunge those."

Thomas Bowman

Alright, so on that topic with criminal records, so what are we going to do with expungements of marijuana related felonies, particularly in cases where someone pled to say felony possession as part of a deal not to be charged with something more violent? Should the expungement process be automatic, or should we consider something more similar to McAuliffe's Expedited Restoration of Rights?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Expungement is an issue that the General Assembly attempted to tackle in the Special Session, and ultimately, they weren't able to reach any sort of consensus. The Virginia State Crime Commission did a study on expungement, and their policy recommendations were in support of an automated expungement process. Virginia is one of eight states that doesn't have true expungement. And what was important about the proposal that came out of Virginia State Crime Commission and ultimately carried in Legislation by Leader Herring, is that it also contained the funding necessary to update the infrastructure and equipment in the state of Virginia, so that we could even have a process like that in place, we don't have the technical capability for that right now. Now, the Senate put forth a different expungement proposal, one that we've seen versions of for years, that outline a very limited set of infractions, and required petition based expungements. And in the House and the Senate weren't able to agree on who had the better proposal. And so Virginians got hung out to dry essentially, until another Session can potentially look at this expungement. So when we do draft the adult use measure, we're going to have to be very creative, in how we look at addressing past records. What solutions can we possibly provide when we're in a state that really lacks the ability to do any comprehensive expungement?

Michael Pope

You know, that House/Senate conflict is really interesting. And it's intractable because the House is really wanting this automatic expungement process. And what they are trying to avoid is any sort of petition process. The Senate wants the opposite. They want a petition process, they don't want it to be automatic and Charniele Herring has made the point where if you create this petition process, you're also going to create a market of lawyers who specialize in the petition process. And then once you've created that market of lawyers, you will never be able to get rid of the petition process because they will be a powerful lobbying force. So we've seen this intractable debate here between the House, which is totally pushing and standing by this automatic expungement process, versus the Senate, which is for the most part, rejecting the idea of automatic expungement. Matt Laslo, I'm sure other states are also trying to figure out the best way to move forward with expungement of old marijuana convictions. What's the field look like here, in terms of can Virginia look to other states that maybe they figured this thing out?

Matt Laslo

Well, on that real quick, I was just gonna say, sounds like this is just a win win win for the economy. The lawyers are going to make money, Legislature's going to be in longer, so that's gonna keep people down there in Richmond working more. And then obviously, the dispensary workers and growers. So I see all positives, a little tongue in cheek. But yeah, when it comes to expungements, take a state like Florida, where the people, literally the will of the people, they came out in 2018, and they said, "We want nonviolent drug offenders to be able to vote, to get their citizenship back." And then what happened? Boom, State Legislature came in and put additional hoops and hurdles. So now you're having some former convicts down there, who are broke and have no money, because the state government or the federal government literally took their life away for consuming things or selling things that are now legal. And talking to AOC earlier this month, she said, "These are entrepreneurs," Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in New York, she said, "These people who are locked up are the actual entrepreneurs of the 90s, because they were selling weed which now the majority of states have legalized in one form or another." So it's interesting, I think, nationally, that debate is kind of just starting. And it's so sad, like remember all the protests? Remember all the violence, we saw police on African Americans this summer? Think about it, like that is now forgotten from the collective American conversation. Like there's something, and a media professor like, I just long for America's attention span, because we've hurt African Americans for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. And now after giving them, what a month or two in cable news, we've now moved on as a nation. And I think that's the problem. I think it falls on all of us to keep the conversation focused there.

Michael Pope

You know, one issue with legalization that the states are eventually going to have to grapple with here, is there's this interesting tension between federal law, where marijuana is illegal versus state laws where marijuana is legal. So there's this tension. The federal law says it's illegal. The state law says it's legal. I talked to Congressman Gerry Connolly about this, and this is how he talked about that issue.

Gerry Connolly

We treat marijuana as if it's the most dangerous drug on the planet, it is not. And clearly the states are no longer accepting that federal law and that federal guidance.

Michael Pope

Matt Laslo, are states abandoning federal guidance?

Matt Laslo

Yeah, I mean, the feds have given nothing. All we've seen in the past couple of administrations, and I was just reminded this, editing a profile of Kamala Harris, Barack Obama sent federal officials in 2012 in two states to disrupt and dismantle their medical marijuana facilities. By the end of his administration, he had changed slowly with the American people. And we had the Cole Memo, which was supposed to protect states, you know, their own marketplace. Then Jeff Session comes, he tears it up then Cory Gardner, Senator from Colorado, gets him to reinstate it. So basically, all we've seen, and all that jumbled nonsense, is me describing what Washington has done for the states. So yeah, the states have said, "Peace. We don't need you, Washington." Granted, the federal government does have lots of power, and lots of guns, and hardware, and stuff we don't want to think about, and they have the courts and all that. But no, the states have completely bypassed. Even, I was talking to former Chairman of the Agriculture Committee in the House, Frank Lucas, a Republican from Oklahoma. He said every bank in his state is on board. They have medicinal marijuana legal in Oklahoma, which is one of the reddest of red states. Marijuana is the most popular thing and most bipartisan thing in this nation. And yet our political class is afraid of it, because they're stuck in this stupid Nixonian War on Drugs, prohibitionists era, reefer madness, like they're stopping the DEA and academic institutions, research institutions, from giving us good quality scientific data. Because guess what, I'm a cigarette smoker. Let me put it out there. Don't smoke, it's stupid. But I can guarantee you smoking marijuana is worse for your lungs, than consuming it through an edible. But guess what? Consumers do not have that information from the FDA, from HHS, like it's just backwards. America is just dumb when it comes to this, and it's because our worthless political class, and that's where I'm biased. I don't like either party.

Thomas Bowman

Jenn Michelle, did you have any quick follow ups on expungement?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

I did, to Michael's point about there being a powerful lobby. Not only are they they're powerful lobby, these attorneys, they're members of the Legislature and they're chairs of committees that hear these bills. So that our, you know, there seems to be a conflict of interest, potentially there. But listen Virginia, if Virginia, they're going to continue electing these people do represent them, they're going to continue to get the same results. And as far as you know, should it be automated, or should it be petitioned, Virginians have already paid their debts for these offenses, so why should they have to then repay again, to have it removed from their records?

Michael Pope

Just to put a button on that, the point that you're making there, Jenn Michelle Pedini, is that Virginia lawmakers are famously part time. It's a part time Legislature, and the reason for that is because it's designed so these people have day jobs, they could be a farmer, they could be a lawyer, they could be a doctor, they could be a dentist, and they bring that professional experience to the table when they talk about laws at the Capitol Building. So the point you're making there is these same lawmakers who are saying, "No, don't make the process automatic for expungement. You have to have a petition process where you get lawyers involved. And you petition," Those same law makers, who are advocating for a petition process, are also, when they're not at the Capitol Building, lawyers who will be part of that newly created cottage industry for creating petitions to get expungements off of the records. Is that what you're saying Jenn Michelle Pedini?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

I thought it was exactly what I'm saying, Michael Pope.

Matt Laslo

Wait, and are you both telling me I should have gotten a law degree?

Michael Pope

If you wanted to be rich, but instead you wanted journalist.

Thomas Bowman

Rich? If you wanted to be in 100 grand worth of debt?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Perhaps if you wanted too, to be a, quote, citizen lawmaker, you know?

Michael Pope

So that citizen lawmakers in Virginia, we also have a whole lot of workgroups. Now, Jenn Michelle Pedini, you're on one of those workgroups on marijuana legalization. And there was a recent discussion about that workgroup during a committee hearing. And one of the most colorful members of the State Senate, Bill Stanley had this to say about the workgroup.

Senator Bill Stanley

With regard to this marijuana decriminalization workgroup,will there be samples? And if so, will snacks be served? Just asking for...yeah.

Michael Pope

Jenn Michelle Pedini, explain what the workgroup did and what the meetings were really like.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

So I think Bill made that joke just for me. As part of the decriminalization legislation, we added enactment language that ordered some number of secretaries to convene a legislative workgroup. That's what Senator Stanley was speaking to. And I am a member of the workgroup, and it has very similar objectives to what we outlined in the legislation that initiated the J Mark study. And so it isn't a, should Virginia legalize marijuana, it is a how should Virginia go about it? And what are the major policy considerations that we would like to address in such legislation and ultimately, the workgroup ended up forming three subcommittees, fiscal and structural subcommittee, legal and regulatory subcommittee, of which I'm a chair, and the health impact subcommittee, and all the subgroups tackled their certain topics, and then the workgroup would would meet as a whole to hear the feedback from the subgroups and come to some, not necessarily policy directives, but, but statements outlining, here is what Virginia should consider when drafting this legislation.

Thomas Bowman

Thank you again, Jenn Michelle Pedini with NORML, and Matt Laslo at The News Station. We'll be right back with question time.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia, we're talking about marijuana, decriminalizing it, legalizing it, and it's question time, where we take questions from you. If you have any questions for Transition Virginia, hit us up on Twitter, you can send us an email, you can join our Patreon community where you can support the work we do here on the podcast. And in fact, our first question comes from one of our Patreons, Pete Gibson of Gibson Printing, Virginia's favorite union printer. He asked this question, I'll open it up to the panel, what role is there for Virginia tobacco companies to play in legalization? And will there be incentives for former tobacco farmers to grow Virginia Kush?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

What role is there for tobacco? Look, I don't think anyone is really jazzed about the idea of Altria dominating cannabis in the Commonwealth, even ultimately, that may one day be your reality. As long as it remains federally illegal, I think we're going to see legalization in Virginia rollout is similar to the way it has in other states where it's not, you know, titans of industry, you know, perhaps outside of those multi state operators that are already in the cannabis space. And and will there be a role for Virginia's tobacco farmers? For those folks, absolutely. Equity can be looked at through a very large lens, and part of that conversation, that equity conversation here in Virginia, and specifically within the Virginia marijuana legalization workgroup. It's about that broader that broader question of equity and life, not just about equity licenses for those who may want to work in the cannabis industry, but how can we provide opportunity and restorative justice to all of those who've been impacted by the failed policy? How can we incentivize opportunity for Virginians, and Virginia farmers are certainly part of that.

Matt Laslo

And to piggyback on that, but also to take it away from big tobacco. And let's just go straight at the juggler of Big Pharma, which let me just uncynically say, has bought and paid for both Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill. We're now starting to see even Purdue pharma members, I've heard, that I haven't done this story yet, but members of the Sackler family are investing in marijuana companies, have tried to take the 10 or whatever billion dollars that they hid from the families who they killed with their opioids, with their oxycotton, they're now trying to get into the cannabis market. And so like there is fear within the industry of, for lack of a better term, the conglomeraterization of the industry, you know, the big takeovers, people on Wall Street at the start of the Recession, and all these VC capital firms were literally thinking like, "Ooh, after a few months, this is going to be the time to buy all these cannabis firms." Well, what happened? We've seen sales spike, because when people are sitting at home, I guess they like a joint or a bowl or an edible. So sales have been up. So all these firms have had to like rethink that, just rabid, capitalistic approach, which I'm fine with capitalism. I want people to make money. But these pharmaceutical companies and big tobacco as well, these companies that have killed hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens, now I want to get in on this just to, I don't know, to feed their bottom line. But I'm nervous about that. Because I don't think these companies, or even industries, have proven themselves to be good actors, who actually care about Americans, while many people in the marijuana industry, actually do. This is medicine for millions of Americans right now.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

While I don't disagree with you, Matt, I'll remind our listeners that we should all be so fortunate as to one day have the luxury of choosing between Marlboro greens at the corner store and craft cannabis at the boutique dispensary, and pharmaceuticaliesed cannabinoids at CVS.

Matt Laslo

Amen. I just want those company's own by the people currently in prison, and I know you agree with me on that.

Thomas Bowman

Okay, we can keep exploring the Garden of Eden forever. But let's go to our next question here from Sarah Graham Taylor. Sarah is the lobbyist for Alexandria City. And she has a question that comes in through Twitter at Sarah Taylor. Okay see, she points out that Alexandria's Substance Abuse Prevention Commission brought something to her attention. She wants to know, will the quote Social Host unquote, Liability Law extend to marijuana? Okay, The Social Host Liability Law, I just looked it up. Google, Google's a wonderful thing. It states in part that anyone who furnishes or sells alcohol to a minor, is guilty of a misdemeanor. And if the subsequent consumption of the alcoholic liquor, by the minor, is a direct and substantial cause of that person's death, then there's criminal penalties. So so what they're asking is, you know, parents who give weed to minors are they gonna go to jail?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

Some many decades ago, NORML adopted what are called, The Principles of Responsible Cannabis Use. And the first point in that is adults only, cannabis consumption is for adults only. It is irresponsible to provide cannabis to children.

Matt Laslo

Amen. And that's industry wide. Like it's not even a, I'd almost call it a red herring. This is something that opponents bring up. Nobody in the industry wants kids consuming this stuff. Just like we don't want kids consuming alcohol.

Thomas Bowman

All right, Sarah, if you've been listening, it sounds like Alexandria's Substance Abuse Prevention Commission needs new members.

Matt Laslo

Amen.

Thomas Bowman

Activate Virginia on twitter @ActivateVirginia wants to know, should legislators pass an advisory referendum this coming Session, that would put legalization and taxation on the 21 November ballot to demonstrate public support?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

No.

Thomas Bowman

I don't disagree with you, Jenn Michelle, why no?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

That's nothing but a stall tactic. Virginians haven't been vocal in their support for legalizing responsible use of marijuana by adults. I don't see how a referendum does more than illustrate what poll after poll after poll has already demonstrated.

Michael Pope

Alright, our next question comes from Bill in Richmond. He wants to know how national policy from a President Biden might influence the legalization process in Virginia? Any thoughts on that?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

It won't. Virginia Legislature is not swayed by the policies of neighboring states, or frankly, even the federal government. Virginia, like the majority of United States and Territories, is in violation of federal law by legalizing medical cannabis and decriminalizing personal possession. So federal policy doesn't seem to be impeding progress here. Progress has been slowed, but not because of the federal government.

Matt Laslo

And I would only add, whoever the next president is, is going to be a teetotaller whether it's Biden or Trump. So on this, whatever happens in 2021, and beyond, we're going to need the Congress to move the White House. And we've seen that a little bit. We've seen the rank and file lawmakers on Capitol Hill, move Speaker Pelosi at the start of this year, as Majority Leader Steny Hoyer from Maryland, if he'd ever talked to Pelosi about cannabis after they, she had been Speaker again for one year, and he told me no, never come up. So one reason we've seen Congress, and especially House Democrats move on, whether it's Safe Banking Act to allow cannabis firms into the financial marketplace, or whether it's their movement on the MORE Act which would decriminalize nationally and invest some of that money back in the communities hit hardest by the War on Drugs. The only reason that party leaders are even bringing that to the floor, and this is Democrats, mind you, is because of the rank and file. So with Biden or Trump, or any of these others set the generic ones running this nation, they're going to need some pressure from younger folks. And also just people of all ages who consume and care about this stuff, or if they have a child with epilepsy, who needs this so their baby stops having these disgusting seizures, hundreds sometimes, guess what, cannabis helps with that.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

They're also going to need a pathway to bring these bills to hearings and in the House and the Senate. And while that may be true in the United States House of Representatives right now, it is not true in the United States Senate. Those bills are not being heard.

Thomas Bowman

Paul in Dumfries, Virginia has two questions. He wants to know whether individuals will be allowed to grow plants at home for personal use like in D.C. And he also wants to know, if Virginia legalizes, should minority owned small businesses get preference to open up over big businesses like Altria?

Jenn Michelle Pedini

To the first point, yeah, personal cultivation is a big issue for Virginians. We've heard time and time again. And NORML offered incredibly vocal support in favor of such a provision, both to Jay Lark and during the workgroup meetings and opportunities for Virginians, for those impacted by marijuana prohibition, should absolutely be baked in to the licensing structure of adult use and a future medical expansion.

Matt Laslo

And on that second question, when it comes to minority businesses, this is where, you know I'm a professor, so I play devil's advocate. This is where Republicans are raising some interesting questions quasi-objections? Because what we've seen in the House, and actually we've seen in the Senate, too, so take Elizabeth Warren, I sat down with her six or four years ago to talk about her bill, The State's Act with Republican Cory Gardner, Colorado Senator who's embattled. One thing that was pointed out to me, during the Democratic presidential debates, Elizabeth Warren never discussed her bill, The State's Act, which would just be a blanket federal government decriminalizes, each state picks on their own. The only thing Elizabeth Warren would talk about was Cory Booker's Marijuana Justice Act, which is progressive, which wants to reinvest money in the communities hit hardest by the War on Drugs, you know, left blighted, families ripped apart, kids, sons, mom's etc, in jail for decades, for stuff that's now legal on the outside. So one thing Republicans are saying is that they're still more in line, like they can stomach at this point, The States Act. For one thing Democrats are saying is, well The States Act was six years ago, and six years ago, it was already five decades behind. You know, so we're actually starting to get a finer point on these debates. And it's about time Congress started talking about these real issues, because we have millions of African Americans and Latinos locked up for the same thing me and my friends did at country clubs.

Michael Pope

All right. Our next question comes from Alex in Fairfax, and he's wondering about the House/Senate dynamics here. So we've got Democrats who are leading the House and Democrats who are leading the Senate, but they're really kind of different breeds of Democrats. So Alex in Fairfax, wants to know, what will happen when there's this debate on legalization in the Senate, and the Senate elections are not until 2023. What resistance we might see from Senate Democrats? Jenn Michelle Pedini, I'll throw the question to you.

Jenn Michelle Pedini

If we're going to have a few Democratic Senators, in Virginia, that are not as, that are not ready to endorse legalization, wholeheartedly, that that's something we may actually have to contend with. My question to them, is going to be how much they're like being reelected? Why do they like standing on the wrong side of history? This is a public policy that Virginians support, and they would be wise to to catch up to Virginians. By that same token, we have a number of Republican senators who are very supportive of legalization and kind of inverse, I think, in the in the House where the House we have, I would expect, generally party line support in the House when it comes to Democrats, and then then definitely some Republicans who are interested in it as well.

Thomas Bowman

Well, alright, that's it for this episode. We had a lot of fun. Jenn Michelle Pedini with NORML, thank you so much for being on the podcast, Matt Laslo, same to you. Thank you so much for being on the show. If you have comments or questions about what you just heard, or maybe you only want to tell us what you think, write an email and send it to us at TransitionVApodcast@gmail.com. We might read it on the air. Subscribe to Transition Virginia anywhere pods are cast. Follow the transition team on Twitter @TransitionVA and find us on the web at transitionsvirginia.com. Don't forget to like and subscribe so you can enjoy our next episode of Transition Virginia.