Michael Pope

Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the ongoing transition of power in Virginia. I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

I'm Thomas Bowman. And before we begin, we've got some great news. We are ticking on up in popularity. I just got an email this morning, Michael, that said, we're getting big in Denmark. We are number 72 on Apple Podcasts news commentary chart in Denmark.

Michael Pope

Did you say Denmark, Thomas?

Thomas Bowman

To Denmark! So thank you to all our new listeners coming from Denmark.

Michael Pope

Wait, Thomas, I got a special surprise for you. Are you ready for this?

Thomas Bowman

Sure.

Michael Pope

Yes, this is the national anthem of Denmark to celebrate all of our new Danish friends. Thank you Denmark, for making Transition Virginia, the, what was it, Thomas?

Thomas Bowman

Number 72 podcast!

Michael Pope

Number 72! And I'm feeling so patriotic for my homeland of Denmark.

Thomas Bowman

You know, Michael, it's good you played that, because otherwise I wouldn't have known what it was. So, we've also got some really good news. Our episode on Critical Race Theory that we did a couple weeks ago is doing really well. It's one of our most popular episodes ever.

Michael Pope

Uh, you know, I think people are googling the term Critical Race Theory, because it's becoming such a part of the public discourse, especially on the right, but people on the left are sort of trying to ask themselves, "Okay, why are people talking about this so much?" And trying to figure out what Critical Race Theory is, and how it factors in public discussion. So hopefully, our podcast can sort of map that out for people.

Thomas Bowman

You know, it's a discussion that a lot of people are having in very high places. The Navy's highest ranking officer just confronted some Republican critics and stressed the importance of combating racism and misinformation, especially in the military. So this is something that the Pentagon is taking very seriously, because it's being used to subvert natural dialogue and academic understanding, politically. So that's something that I think everybody should be paying attention to. If the Pentagon says it's important, it's important.

Michael Pope

And you know, just a few miles West of the Pentagon is Loudon County, where this continues to be a flashpoint. We talked about Loudoun County on the podcast. And since that time, it has continued to be at the white hot center of Loudon politics. So it'd be interesting to see how that plays out.

Thomas Bowman

Well, and it's not just Loudoun County. So the Southern Baptist Convention just elected a new President yesterday at their meeting, their annual meeting in Tennessee. And they elected somebody who is ostensibly moderate, or even liberal, once racial reconciliation was okay with teaching Critical Race Theory, although it's not being taught in classrooms, the way it's being purportedly taught. And he defeated a hardline, right wing conservative, who was using all of that as a dog whistle. And, you know, I'm wondering, because one of our guests today is Kim Bobo, the Executive Director of the Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy. Kim, do you have any thoughts, before we really get into today's episode, on what happened at the Southern Baptist Convention and with Critical Race Theory?

Kim Bobo

Well, I absolutely think it's a good sign that the Southern Baptist Convention is recognizing that it does not have a good history on race issues, and that they've elected somebody who's going to take much more moderate views on this. Now, the good news in Virginia, our Virginia Baptist Conference, sort of the local Virginia version of the Southern Baptist, has actually always been much more reasonable on these issues and it has really tried to make racial justice and racial reconciliation a part of what they do. But again, even here in Virginia, the history is pretty sorted in terms of the white churches complicity with racism. So I think this is a very good sign. And I think it will send some important messages across the nation and certainly here in Virginia.

Thomas Bowman

Well, it's getting hot outside and as we tick into the dog days of summer, and so we also have a hot show for you today. Michael, I think we should just get started and get right on into today's episode. What are we talking about?

Michael Pope

Yeah, well, we are talking about heat stress and all of the dangerous situations that workers can find themselves. And we've already introduced one of our guests, Kim Bobo, who's the Executive Director at the Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy. We are also joined by a farm worker attorney at the Legal Aid Justice Center, Rachel McFarland. Thanks for joining us.

Rachel McFarland

Thanks for having me.

Michael Pope

Great. So I'm so interested in talking about this topic of heat stress and the regulations that are under consideration right now, or will be under consideration in the near future. And sort of the backstory on this is that there was legislation that was proposed, by Senator Ghazala Hashmi, that would create new protections for workers. And after she introduced that, the Northam Administration said, "Hold on, wait a second. Hold on, wait a second. We can take care of this. You don't, we don't need legislation to do this. We'll do this administratively." And both of our guests, actually, were part of that whole process. Rachel MacFarland, I'll start with you. What happened with that legislation from Senator Hashmi, and get us up to date in terms of where things are now?

Rachel McFarland

Sure, so last year, the Administration had started on notice of intended rulemaking authority. And that had gone forward to the Secretary of Commerce's desk for signature and then sat without movement. Now, of course, COVID happened in the interim. And we had to deal with getting the workplace safe in those regards. But heat stress is still an ongoing pressing issue, and needed attention as well. And so the legislation that has been introduced for the General Assembly this year, was really primarily to require the Safety and Health Codes Board to move forward with the regulatory process. And after that bill was introduced, the Administration came in and said, "Okay, we'll push the new IRA process forward." And so the bill was withdrawn. And later in the spring, it passed out of the Secretary of Commerce's office, it went on to the Governor's office, and then was released out to the public for public comment in May, and just wrapped that up last week. So that's where we are on it right now. And this is just simply, we're saying we're going to engage in this process. And we're going to start writing draft regulations to also go out for public comment.

Michael Pope

I would imagine that's somewhat of a gamble. You know, there was that old television show where they would do things like well, you can take the blender or you can take whatever is behind door number two, right? And so you don't really know what's behind or number two. Kim Bobo, were you a little bit concerned, taking the Administration's word for this, when you already had a legislative process, you know, working out?

Kim Bobo

Um, no, my experiences, if the administration says that they will go ahead and make it a priority, it's, you know, that they don't do that. And so again, I think Senator Hashmi, rightly, agreed to withdraw the legislation that they would move forward on it, and indeed, they have. The staff that work on these things, through the Department of Labor and Industries, are really quite terrific. And they've been really competent. But again, Rachel's right, that it had just sat there for a while. So, again, I feel like the legislation kind of nudged it out of somebody's desk and got it moving forward. And that's what we wanted to happen. So the fact that they've done this Notice of Intent to issue the regulations is the first step in the process and we're pleased with it.

Thomas Bowman

What's the actual problem? What's happening and what was this bill, or now, regulation, trying to solve?

Kim Bobo

There are 1000s of deaths around the nation that are at workplaces directly related to heat stress. Now, honestly, probably a lot of these deaths don't go reported. But you know, heat is really, it can kill us, right? And so, particularly for outdoor workers, but also for indoor workers, if they are working in places where there's excessive heat, they can obviously have all sorts of health problems, but they can also die from it. And and so in Virginia, we thought, especially given climate change, and so many farm workers, and construction workers, who work in the summer, in extreme heat, that we needed some standards for the workplace on this, and that this would be a really important thing, both for workers to, you know, have a standard that can protect them, but also for employers, so they can know what is good science around protecting their workers. And I know a lot of good businesses would appreciate that.

Rachel McFarland

I just want to add two things to that. One, a lot of employers are already doing this, but there are a lot that aren't. And to sort of level that playing field and make sure that all employers are doing what they need to do to protect their employees, having enforceable standards rather than right now, even federally, there's no standards federally even, that actually direct employers on what they should be doing to keep people safe, is really important. And the other thing that sort of the analogy that I like to think of is, I mean, think back to two weekends ago, when we had a heat index of over 100. I went blueberry picking Saturday, that Saturday morning, the first day that it was that unbearably hot, I was outside for about an hour, and I did not recover from the heat the entire rest of the day. Right? So when we are in the dead heat of summer, and it's unbearably hot, and unbearably humid, if we're out doing something and our yards, or out doing something for fun, we have the ability to say, "Oh, I'm too hot, I should go back inside for an hour, for the rest of the day. What have you." Workers don't have that option. And just think about how hot you get and is that fair to make somebody have to do that for eight to 10 hours every day, without breaks, without sufficient water, without shade? So I mean, this is, it really is about basic decency, and basic health.

Thomas Bowman

I'll bet you the opposition for this bill, from at least portions of the business community, would say, "You know, people accepted working this job. They even possibly applied to work for this job, for the amount of money, with those conditions." Is this a legitimate argument? Or is this a red herring? Kim, what do you think?

Kim Bobo

Well, again, we've often heard those kind of complaints that, you know, people took this job so they, you know, deserve to have whatever standards there are. And as a society, we've decided that that's not true. We have standards around minimum wage, even if somebody would agree to work $5 an hour, our standard in Virginia now is it's $9.50 an hour, right? So this is not something that people can one on one negotiate. We have some standards as a society that we've collectively agreed, and health and safety, we have a series of standards, both federally and at the state level, around health and safety. And we as a society have decided that that's best for all concerned. And this is really just an area where there currently is not a standard, there's not clear guidance on it. And we believe that there should be one. And so yes, there will always be people who oppose any kind of standard. But I think collectively, as a society, we've agreed we do need to have some core standards.

Rachel McFarland

I think also people take jobs because they need to put food on their table and keep a roof over their head. And somebody may very well take a job that doesn't provide the best protections and benefits to be able to feed their families. And they shouldn't be punished for that. Like if they take an outdoor job, or they take an indoor job that still has high heat risks, they have to do that to keep providing, and so they shouldn't be punished for that.

Thomas Bowman

They're working an exploitable position is what it like, it sounds like you're saying, right? They don't have as many choices as someone like you and I might have in employment.

Kim Bobo

Correct. Exactly, where again, the same thing applies. You know, we're trying to get a as you know, a paid sick day standard. And I've had people say, "Well, why don't they just leave and take a job that has paid sick days?" Well, that's not so easy in some sectors where you know, there really aren't jobs that provide paid sick days. And so again, we're dealing often with with folks where they don't have have the ability to negotiate for a better job. And again, as a society, we believe there are core standards that ought to exist. And that includes that you shouldn't be forced to work in extreme heat conditions that can endanger your health.

Michael Pope

Okay, well, let's take a break. When we come back, we'll talk about what kind of regulations we're talking about here. How they'll work, and what they'll say. We'll also talk about how this effort is similar to the new workplace protections for COVID-19. And we'll get an update on the effort to mandate paid sick days. We'll be right back.

And we're back on Transition Virginia. We're talking about the effort to create new workplace standards to protect against heat stress. And I want to drill down to get a sense of what these guidelines might actually look like. Now, our listeners might be familiar with something called NIOSH. And no, that's not your favorite kind of pasta. It's the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, which is part of the CDC and they have a bunch of recommendations for avoiding heat stress. One of them, that probably will be a little bit controversial, is that workers should have 15 minutes of break every hour. Kim Bobo, is that going to fly with the business community in Virginia?

Kim Bobo

Well, again, I think if we look closely at it, it's not suggesting that for anybody who's in outdoor weather, but really in an extreme kinds of conditions. And frankly, that might be appropriate, you know, if you're working in the fields, and it's, you know, 110 heat index, it may make sense to do that. But again, it's not that hot most of the time. And so this is not going to be 15 minutes every hour, in most situations, because, again, you know, I'm an employer, right? I don't want my staff not working 15 minutes of every hour, right? We can't afford that. So again, I think that this Virginia Safety and Health Codes Board will come up with very reasonable standards. They did an excellent job on the COVID-19 emergency standard, sort of balancing what's reasonable and appropriate, with protecting workers and workplaces. So so again, I am confident that if there's a recommendation that has people stopping work for some period of time, it will be a reasonable recommendation that only applies to extreme kind of heat conditions.

Rachel McFarland

Yeah, I just want to reiterate what Kim is saying is that NIOSH's recommendation is certainly not for that to be every hour of every day, no matter what. It is based on how hot it is, and how much exertion the worker is doing for their work during that hour. And it sort of graduates as the hotter it gets, and the heavier the workload is, the more of a break you take. But that it, it has to hit a certain level before that 15 minutes even kicks in. And additionally, studies have shown that when workers are are working in high heat situations, they actually are less productive. And so by giving them the breaks, as science really is requiring that you get, you're actually going to be more productive.

Thomas Bowman

Okay, so what, in addition to the breaks, are the regulations being proposed, or at least what regulations is the Legal Aid Justice Center asking for?

Rachel McFarland

Sure. So we would like to see really for them to research and sort of go as expansively as possible. But in particular, a climatization is really important, which is sort of as you gradually adapt to working in higher temperatures, and that helps workers to actually be able to tolerate the high heat, so you do little bits at a time, and then you might have a longer break when you're a newer employee getting used to that, and then little by little your body learns to be able to tolerate those higher temperatures. So employers should be doing that, particularly with new hires. But also, if somebody has been working there for a while, but suddenly is doing even hotter work, then they may need to go through that, again. Providing water and electrolytes if you've been working for extended periods of time, you need electrolytes, that is something that's required already. But employers don't necessarily keep water at an easily accessible place for workers. And so like really making sure that that is something that's going to be accessible to workers. Quite frankly, cold stress is also a risk for people working in extremely cold temperatures. And we think that this is a good time to look at both of those, because oftentimes, the prevention measures for cold stress, are very similar to heat stress. So like they should just take both of those on at the same time. Training- training is really important, that workers know what to do when an emergency hits, so that they're not scrambling at the moment, who do we call? Where do we move the worker? For farmworkers, for and for migrant workers in particular, like making sure they actually even know where they are situated. So if they call 911, they know where to say they are. Having a preparedness plan, again, goes back to that. In farmworkers, they, they're provided housing often. And so one of the things that is really helpful for climatization is having a cool environment in the evenings. And so lots of farms don't provide air conditioning. If it's employer provided housing, they should be providing AC as well. We want to make sure that employers are keeping ADA protections in mind, because some of your risk factors for how you will react to stress, might be based on your own individual health risks and conditions. And that should be taken into consideration while developing the preparedness plans. But employers should be careful that they're not breaching those protections. And then finally, particularly with farm work, but this there's a similar issue in some factory work as well, farm workers are often paid on a piece rate. And so they get paid more, the more they pick. And so there's a disincentive to stop, and take a water break, or stop and take a rest break. And so we think they should keep in mind, like California has a system in place, to help with a pay structure for those break times, so that it doesn't bring the worker down in their pay rate. The same with point systems. You can get penalised if you take too long of a break, or too many breaks. And so workers may be afraid to take breaks. And so just things to keep in mind as they're creating the structures, that if they create these protections to make sure workers are actually taking advantage of them. And that's, I mean, there's lots of other, that's not an exhaustive list.

Thomas Bowman

Sure.

Rachel McFarland

But those were our key points of like, make sure you're at least looking into these things.

Thomas Bowman

So farm workers have been around for hundreds of years. Why is this something we're only now getting around to? Has there been a barrier, language implementation problems, creativity? Why is it taken this long?

Rachel McFarland

Well, as a society, we tend to push farmworkers into the shadows. And that's just historically always been the case. I think that this past year, in particular, with focusing on essential workers, has helped bring them out of the shadows some. Also, it's been a priority with the new presidential administration. But I mean, really, I really think that a lot of it has come from just like really starting to recognize the work that essential workers have done for us, and highlighting that as we all got to sit at home in safety and essential workers didn't have a choice.

Michael Pope

You know, on that issue, Kim Bobo earlier, you mentioned the guidelines and safety standards during COVID, which was a huge win for workers in Virginia. So the advocates are coming to this conversation, sort of fresh off the victory of what happened last year. Walk us through that whole scenario and how that transpired. And what the sort of similarities are with this conversation on heat stress.

Kim Bobo

Well, the Governor asked the Virginia Safety and Health Codes Board to develop a set of standards for workplaces under COVID-19. And the way it works is you can do a permanent standard, but you can also do an emergency standard, which means you can frankly do it faster. And so what Virginia did was we did any emergency temporary standard, and then transitioned it into a more permanent standard later. But it was an emergency standard around preparing and training workplaces to protect workers under COVID-19. And it was a sign to work on to this Virginia Safety and Health Codes Board, which is comprised of both worker advocates, and employer representatives, and health and safety experts. So it's a really balanced board. And they work through very carefully. And in legislative administrative timelines, a fairly quick timeline. Now it's, it's often feels slow to people like me, but it was actually a relatively quick process, a couple months, and develop this really strong set of standards, that became the first statewide health and safety standards on COVID-19 in the country. So Virginia really led the way. And it was really the incredibly good work of the Virginia Safety and Health Codes Board. And I, as I mentioned earlier, I really feel like they did an excellent job of trying to balance you know, "Let's protect workers as much as we can. And let's be cognizant of the limitation sometimes in workplaces and and let's think about what's reasonable and appropriate to ask." So I feel like they did an excellent job doing this. And, and so I'm really very optimistic that they will study this, that they will come out with reasonable expectations and standards, and that Virginia can help lead the way. Again, this is an area where we don't have any national standards on this. I mean, there's a few general kind of standards, but nothing really specific. A few states have it, but nothing at the federal level. And so again, Virginia, stepping into the breach here, and creating its own standards, makes great sense. And again, this is this is a terrific Safety and Health Codes Board. So I'm excited about the process.

Michael Pope

One question on a related issue, before we wrap up, which is, Kim, the last time you were on the podcast, we were talking about paid sick days. Now since that time, there has been legislation to give paid sick days to home health care workers. So that's at least to start, right, it's some kind of progress. It's not the kind of sweeping paid sick days mandate that advocates were hoping for. However, I think we're probably going to see this play out on the campaign trail. The night that Terry McAuliffe won the Democratic nomination, he gave his victory speech. I was there in McLean. He mentioned paid sick days in his victory speech. Kim Bobo, how do we see this debate on paid sick days playing out during the campaign, and potentially in the 2022 General Assembly Session?

Kim Bobo

Yes, I think you're absolutely right, Michael, that we will see paid sick days expanded there in the 2022 Session, at least, we're certainly optimistic that that will be the case. The bill that was passed covers 30,000 homecare workers, it's a very good downpayment. It is not what we need for 1.2 million workers. So we do need a much broader, more comprehensive standard. We've been reaching out to, now, both the Governor candidates, but previously the broader collection of candidates, urging them to make this a priority for their administration. Polls show that 72% of Republicans and 96% of Democrats believe we need a paid sick day standard in Virginia. So we believe that both the Democrat and the Republican candidate ought to make this a priority. Terry McAuliffe has publicly said it will be a priority. And we are certainly hopeful that Glenn Youngkin will do the same, and so that we will have leadership from whoever becomes the Governor of the State of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Michael Pope

And Rachel McFarland, same, same question to you. I know the Legal Aid Justice Center has been advocating for paid sick days, but there has been a lot of pushback, especially from the business community, who feel like it's an unfair mandate. What would you say to a voter or business owner who says, "Hey, I don't need these excessive regulations?" What's the argument for paid sick days to those people?

Rachel McFarland

I would say that most countries have these protections. And, especially with essential workers who, in office jobs, we typically have paid sick days. But for essential workers who are much more public facing, they don't have that option. And people have to make the choice between going into work sick, and keeping their job, and getting enough, either their hourly rate to put food on their tables, versus staying home, not getting paid, possibly losing their jobs. And that is not a choice anybody should have to make. And I think again, going back to what the past year has shown us, but we've seen it is very important to stay home when you are sick. And people should have the tools available to them to make that choice. And typically that choice should be that you should stay home and get healthy.

Thomas Bowman

So I understand why the Legal Aid Justice Center cares a lot about this issue. Kim, would you explain to us why Virginia Interfaith considers this a priority?

Kim Bobo

Well, I think it's because our congregations work with so many low wage workers. And particularly, in terms of migrant workers, I mean, one of my colleagues yesterday was just calling around to all the migrant ministers, and there's a lot of them in Virginia. And these are congregations that work directly with migrants. And so they see these workers out in the fields. And so there's really a deep concern about how they're treated and how they're protected.

Michael Pope

Great, anything else that either of you would like to say about this discussion on heat stress, and how we hope, or expect, the regulatory process to play out over the next few months?

Kim Bobo

Well, from the Virginia Interfaith Centers point of view, we really would urge people to get connected with us, join our email list, you can get it at www.Virginiainterfaithcenter.org. And we will keep you up to date on what's going on and invite you to make comments and get engaged. This is something that we should all care about.

Rachel McFarland

And I would just note that I mean, this, really Kim alluded to this earlier, this is not just an issue for outdoor workers, it's an issue for indoor workers, as well. And again, if cold stress gets added in, that expands it even more, and it really is about protecting the very basic health and safety of Virginia's workers. And there may be federal protections in the future. But right now, Virginia needs to protect its workers in the immediate future.

Thomas Bowman

All right, well, you heard it. If you are somebody, or if you know somebody who works in extreme conditions, mostly outside, get in touch with both of these organizations and add your voice to the cause. So that's all for this episode.

Michael Pope

Support us on Patreon or send us an email to TransitionVApodcast@gmail.com.

Thomas Bowman

Like and follow @TransitionVA on Twitter and anywhere pods are cast.

Michael Pope

Read the transcripts at TransitionVirginia.com and special thanks to Emily Cottrell for figuring out what the heck we're saying.

Thomas Bowman

Thanks for being on the Transition Team. We're your hosts, Thomas Bowman.

Michael Pope

And I'm Michael Pope.