IN THE NEWS:

1. The AFL-CIO is opposing the proposed arena and entertainment district in the Potomac Yard area of Alexandria, dealing a major blow to legislation now under consideration at the state Capitol in Richmond. The labor groups say the developer should have entered into a labor agreement, adding that the existing bill is a bad deal for workers.

2. The right to abortion has been a flashpoint in Virginia politics ever since the United States Supreme Court eliminated constitutional protections. Wednesday, thousands of people came to Richmond to call for abortion rights to be rolled back or repealed altogether. Many of them were not interested in talking to the legacy media.

3. On Tuesday, the Senate of Virginia passed a bill to eliminate tax-exempt status for Confederate heritage organizations. But until lawmakers pass a bill to remove Stonewall Jackson, he will continue to occupy a prominent spot facing the north entrance to the Capitol.

At the Watercooler:

• Takeaways from Speaker Scott's Black and White Gala

• Reacting to WAMU firing 15 journalists on their DCist project and taking down the archive

Episode Transcript

Michael Pope  

I'm Michael Pope.

Lauren Burke  

I'm Lauren Burke.

Michael Pope  

And this is Pod Virginia. A podcast marching towards the month of March. Lauren, did you know that March is Women's History Month but also Problem Gambling Awareness Month?

Lauren Burke  

No, I did not know that. What does that say about skill games?

Michael Pope  

Yes, the skill games vote is going to happen in March. We will learn the fate of the infamous skill games bill in Problem Gambling Awareness Month. So, put that in the back of your mind for the end of the session. For now, let's get to the news. Arena hits a roadblock. The AFL-CIO is opposing the proposed arena and entertainment district in the Potomac Yard area of Alexandria. That's dealing a major blow to legislation under consideration at the State Capitol in Richmond. The labor group says the developer should have entered into a labor agreement, adding that the existing bill is a bad deal for workers. Here's part of my conversation with Senate Majority Leader Scott Surovell. 

Scott Surovell  

From the beginning, I've encouraged the parties to enter into an agreement with labor. And that's been my position; I hope that they can come to an agreement because if they don't, it'll become very hard to pass this bill. 

Michael Pope  

House Speaker Don Scott says opposition from labor groups doesn't help the bill.

Don Scott  

The arena deal is gonna have a very difficult time if it's not creating good paying jobs, high wage jobs, it's probably gonna have challenges. So, hopefully, folks will continue to talk. And we can see if we can figure it out. If not, if it dies, or dies. 

Michael Pope  

Do you think this is the beginning of the end for this arena deal?

Don Scott  

I never say never. This is politics.

Michael Pope  

Oh man, the Speaker of the House is really something; Don Scott has a way with words. So labor coming out against the arena; is this the death nail for this project?

Lauren Burke  

I don't know. But I'll tell you, what if you had the Majority Leader of the Virginia Senate telling you you needed to figure out labor stuff? And you had the Senate Finance Chair, Senator L. Louise Lucas, making all sorts of noise on Twitter or X about what needed to happen and what she needed to see. One would think that you would move in that direction in some way. Maybe they have been in the background, and we just don't know about it. But I don't get that sense. And obviously, the biggest question for everybody involved is the jobs question. And one would think that that would be front and center from day one. So I'm not sure why this is happening other than that it does feel like there's a lack of communication coming from the Monumental side if I had to guess. So they made the big announcement in December. It's a big, shiny announcement; there was no detail provided about when that happened. And now here we are almost three months later, with not a whole lot more detail. And now you see labor bail, and that's a hugely bad sign for them. So I don't get why that would have happened if they had been in close touch with these lawmakers. Again, none of this is a secret, but now everybody is saying out loud what the priorities were, which we've known from the very beginning. 

Michael Pope  

You mentioned a lack of detail. It's actually kind of shocking how little detail we've got about things like the 30,000 jobs. Listeners to this podcast have heard me complain about this over and over again. And they still have yet to release the information about the 30,000 jobs. I've been asking about this since early December. I had this conversation on January 4th with Stephanie Landrum at the Alexandria Economic Development Partnership, and I said, Hey, tell me about these 30,000 jobs. How many of these jobs are janitors? How many of these people are marketing professionals? How many more executives? What's the median salary? Just give me a rundown of who these people are. That was January 4th, and we still do not know the answer to that. Stephanie Landrum has not provided the answer to that. She hasn't even returned my calls, to be honest with you. On top of that, the folks in Alexandria, Monumental, and the consultants are all kind of working together on this. So, in late January, they prepared a document that attempts to answer some, but not all, of those questions. So, the 30,000 jobs actually did detail what some of those jobs are, but fewer than half. So if you're going to say 30,000 jobs, I think it's incumbent on you to tell us what those jobs are. They've told us what less than half of those jobs are. But what about the other half? There's a half of these 30,000 jobs that we still know nothing about. And it really is incumbent on them to explain it. And they have not done that yet. This is a huge red flag for the project. The other big red flag is that you heard Leader Surovell. He has been telling them all along the look of if you Gov if you want to do this, enter into a labor agreement. Labor agreement. Well, he didn't do that. People often say politics makes strange bedfellows. These are strange bedfellows that couldn't stay in the bed together.

Lauren Burke  

Yeah. I don't understand why that stuff is not answered or dealt with at this point. Some of the stuff that you don't see on media platforms is stuff happening quietly in the background. I certainly didn't make any assumption that they didn't have these answers just because I didn't read them in the paper. People have back-channel conversations that don't necessarily need to be public. The problem is when people start to ask elected officials, particularly in that local area, what's going on. And then they don't have answers, that becomes really problematic. Even someone had just said, well, we don't have all the details, but we have a broad brush of what this may look like. They still don't have that. And here we are, with March upcoming and the end of the session. So that is definitely a problem.

Michael Pope  

Yeah. And there's just a failure here. This is a communications failure. I have asked this question over and over again; they still don't have the answers. And they just keep stonewalling me. I've had the same conversation with three different people. Once at the ADP, once with the mayor himself. I explained to him what I was looking for, and then once with a communications person for the city of Alexandria. And they keep saying, oh, yeah, at some point in the future, maybe we'll get back to you. Maybe we'll make somebody available to answer your questions. Maybe we'll answer the questions, but they have not done that yet. So there's a huge black hole of information here. It is a big red flag for this project that we know nothing about half of those 30,000 jobs. Is it just a made-up number, Lauren? Did they pay a consultant to come up with an overly rosy number so the Governor could repeatedly say 30,000 jobs? 

Lauren Burke  

Um, I don't know that. I don't think so; I have nothing to confirm that they made it up.

Michael Pope  

We have no evidence to confirm they didn't make it up. I mean, give me some evidence here. This is not just a made-up number invented by people. We don't know anything about how they came up with that 30,000 jobs number. We don't know who these people are. We don't know, are these sorts of indirect jobs? When I ask economic development people about the lack of information, they'll say, Well, maybe they are direct jobs, the people working in the arena, that's a small number. Then there are indirect jobs, such as maybe a restaurant will open around the corner. So, how many people are going to work at the new restaurant? I think that's where these 30,000 jobs come from. Maybe I don't know because they haven't told us.

Lauren Burke  

Well, I think it's safe to say they're probably counting both direct and indirect jobs. But again, without that information from them, we don't know. I'm waiting for them to hit the reset button. Typically, when you see something like this. In a project of this size, and you see a rollout that's not particularly clear, there is a reset. So, I am waiting for the reset. There will be a reset, I imagine.

Michael Pope  

To be clear, I think it's a disaster of a rollout.

Lauren Burke  

I think it's such a big project that you can't necessarily write it off. I think that we have to see what they say next. I do think they will say something. 

Michael Pope  

Well, answer some questions, and then we'll talk about your rollout. All right, moving on to our next story and marching against rights. The right to abortion has been a flashpoint in Virginia politics ever since the United States Supreme Court eliminated constitutional protections. Last week, thousands of people came to Richmond to call for abortion rights to be rolled back or repealed altogether. Many of those people were not interested in talking to the legacy media.

Anti-Abortion Protestor  

Are you NPR? 

Michael Pope  

Yes, I am. 

Anti-Abortion Protestor  

I don't want to talk to you.

Michael Pope  

Yeah, that's just one of the people at the March that didn't want to speak with me. However, I was able to talk to some people, including this person who said that the conversation about rights is not only about the rights of women or people who are having children.

Gary Messenger  

Women who terminate a fetus are not giving that person a right to exercise their rights.

Michael Pope  

That's Gary Messenger of Chester.

Gary Messenger  

If we can kill unborn people, on one end, before they're even born. We could start at the other end of euthanasia and say, You're too old; we're going to terminate you, and you'll just squeeze into the middle for the convenience of the healthy.

Michael Pope  

Francis Moyer drove three hours from Winchester to be part of the March.

Francis Moyer  

Sixty million children have died through abortion. Millions of women are suffering from guilt and psychological problems because of abortion. And the others have hardened their hearts because we are destroying motherhood, the joys of motherhood, the responsibilities of motherhood, and fatherhood.

Michael Pope  

Yeah, so this is an annual event. But this year's event was highlighted by the fact the Governor of Virginia was marching with these people who don't like abortion rights and came out to express their anti-abortion sentiments. 

Lauren Burke  

Didn't he do that last year as well?

Michael Pope  

I believe he did. Yes. But it is significant when you've got the Governor there marching with you.

Lauren Burke  

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Particularly when the Governor is 6'6" and you can see him above everybody else.

Michael Pope  

That is true. It helps at a march.

Lauren Burke  

This March is every year, obviously on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC. And in Richmond, the bigger one on Capitol Hill has the same dynamic where it's difficult for people to speak to the media and articulate what their views are. But it is good that you actually got the views of some of the folks that were there. 

Michael Pope  

And Lauren, let me tell you something that was not easy. You heard that one person who just slammed me. And she was kind of playing a little mind trick on me because, at first, she was like, oh, NPR. The tone of her voice sounded like, Oh, I like NPR. But then it was like, I'm not talking to you.

Lauren Burke  

The reason it's not easy is why this is any of your business. You're talking to people who are getting it into their mind that it's their business, whether two other people they have nothing to do with and no economic or financial relationship to should or should not have children. You're also getting into the medical business of people who you know nothing about. And so articulating that somehow you have something to do with a decision you have nothing to do with, that it's your business, is interesting, particularly on the conservative right, which is pro-gun all the time, every time. And you want to talk about life and death and questions of euthanasia and all this other stuff. From a policy and logic standpoint, it never makes any sense. Because the same people who make this argument will say that having over 300 million guns in the country is just fine. The same people who make this argument will vote to cut food stamps, cut aid to the poor, talk nothing about homelessness, and none of that stuff matters. So one has to wonder, why do you care so much about people who haven't even been born yet? It is an interesting thing. And when you're doing these man or lady-on-the-street style interviews, you're not going to get into a deep philosophical argument. But I do suspect that's one of the reasons why, at a lot of these marches, there's not a whole lot of interaction with media. 

Michael Pope  

I feel like I need to make sure that I've got voices from people who have come from all over Virginia to be part of the March. And to get a sense of what motivated them, like this woman drove three hours from Winchester to be here. So she got to drive three hours back to write. She's devoted her entire day to that. And this guy from Chester. I think it's important to know what motivates people to come to these things. From your perspective, you mentioned that their position isn't logical or doesn't make a lot of sense. I would add to that. It's also politically toxic. If you think about the last few election cycles, abortion has just decimated Republicans. Over and over again in every election cycle, yet they're still clinging to this message. I feel as though the more they cling to this message, the more elections they're going to lose. But they did overturn it at the Supreme Court. So, this is now a state issue. And will be part of every Virginia election, certainly for the foreseeable future. Because once the General Assembly is in Republican hands, there goes your abortion rights. As long as there's a Republican governor. Once Republicans get their hands on the trifecta, the House, the Senate, and the Governor's office, there go your abortion rights in Virginia; they're gone.

Lauren Burke  

Yeah, well, anybody who is a conservative arguing about the individual rights of people in this country, I think, has a hard time articulating why they are talking about abortion all the time. It is interesting; it typically stems from maybe a religious belief or something like that. But actually, the two folks you talked to didn't really center that in particular. And it's always deeply fascinating to hear a man talk about this as a woman. And that's not to say that men should not be involved in this conversation. But of course, bearing children is something that is uniquely something that women have to do. It's just interesting to me how this issue plays out; it is a very personal issue—and, of course, the marches every year. We'll see it again next year. And I'm actually glad that you did get the views of some other folks because it's so rare to hear those views. 

Alright, let's move on to our next story—racism tax. Members of the General Assembly are telling the lost cause to get lost. Last week, the Senate passed a bill to eliminate the tax-exempt status of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Delegate Alex Askew, a Democrat from Virginia Beach, introduced the bill. 

Alex Askew  

We removed the tax exemptions for the United Daughters of the Confederacy. The reason we put it in is to make sure that our code matches our values.

Lauren Burke  

Senator Angelia Williams Graves, a Democrat from Norfolk, introduced the Senate version of the bill. She celebrated a victory for her bill while walking past the statue of Confederate General Stonewall Jackson—one of three Confederate statues still in Capitol Square.

Michael Pope  

Can I ask you about your reaction to the fact that Stonewall Jackson is standing right over there?

Angelia Williams Graves  

That he is, um, you can't defeat every giant every day. So we'll live to fight and see what happens.

Michael Pope  

Yeah. So this is a personal hobby horse of mine, Lauren. Why are there three Confederate statues in Capitol Square? I mean, there's all this discussion about Monument Avenue, and they finally got rid of all those statues. Well, in Capitol Square, they actually passed a bill a few years ago to remove Harry Bryd. So, getting Harry Bryd out of Capitol Square was a smart move. But they left Stonewall Jackson; what's up with that? Not only did they leave Stonewall Jackson, but he was in an extremely prominent position, looking directly at the center of the building. In the north face of the building, Stonewall Jackson is looking directly at the center of the Capitol in a very key position. To his right is the Surgeon General of the Confederacy, and to the right of him is a Confederate governor of Virginia, extra Billy Smith. He was called Extra Billy because, as a postmaster, he was corrupt, and he took extra cash. And so part of his brand is that he's corrupt. So his nickname was extra, as in you're going to give me some extra money. So, they're not just confederates, they're also corrupt, horrible people on top of all of that, still in Capitol Square. So, yeah, fine, kick the United Daughters of the Confederacy and get rid of their tax-exempt status, and they'll have to pay a little more taxes. But celebrate the victory while you're walking past the statue of Stonewall Jackson.

Lauren Burke  

Yeah. Well, obviously, Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. And our history is always around us. Whether we notice it or not. I think certainly, in the last few years, our legislators have noticed it in a way that they didn't before that. You'll remember when our 41st Lieutenant Governor sat down during the birthdays of Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. And that had been something that was just automatically happening. Nobody really thought about it until then. Until the 41st Lieutenant Governor Justin Fairfax came off the dias. So until then, there was just these built into the schedule commemorations and honorings for various confederates. But obviously, as the demographics of the body change, and people become a lot more conscious of what's around them in terms of who is commemorated and who isn't, that changes. And that's what we're seeing right now.

Michael Pope  

You mentioned former Lieutenant Governor Justin Fairfax coming down off of the seat when they were celebrating Stonewall Jackson. I was actually in the Senate chamber when all of that was going down. And I think there have been some very significant developments since that time. He, as Lieutenant Governor, was presiding over the Senate, and they were passing a resolution honoring this ridiculous Confederate guy. Then, one of the senators would routinely give a speech celebrating Robert E. Lee. It was Senator Richard Stewart. I've heard him give basically the same speech about Robert E. Lee over and over again. But guess what? He no longer gives that speech. And I have tried to ask him about Robert E. Lee, and it's a topic he does not want to speak about on the radio. So that is a change. In the last few years, there has been a sea change in terms of how they think about Confederate generals and how they think about these issues. And so clearly today, Stonewall Jackson is persona non grata. However, there he is, in Capitol Square. So, nobody is currently talking about getting rid of the three Confederate statues. But maybe they should; maybe that's something that people should have a conversation about.

Lauren Burke  

Yeah, I'm sure that's likely. And with regard to Senator Stewart. I mean, if you grow up, you go to school, and no one's really challenging your thinking on what you're taught. And you don't really think more globally about those things until someone actually does something. It's like stepping off the dias, and then you sort of think about it. I remember when that happened, Senator Stewart and Lieutenant Governor Fairfax talked about it. And I really think that it was kind of a moment where Stewart started to think more deeply about what it may mean to other people. And maybe he didn't have to do that before. So it's moments like that that kind of change people's thinking about some of the things that they're doing on automatic pilot. And that's what I think a lot of this is sometimes.

Michael Pope  

You know what, it's so interesting to hear you say that because there is a book that recently came out that kind of unpacks some of that. The title of the book is Robert E. Lee and Me: A Southerner's Reckoning with the Myth of the Lost Cause by Ty Seidule. This guy, Ty Seidule, an extremely talented writer and Speaker, wrote it. I heard him speak about this topic and his relationship with Robert E. Lee. Not that they met each other, but his feelings about living in a world where he went to VMI. And they celebrated him. And he was in the military, and they celebrated him. And he lived in the South, and they celebrated him. And all of a sudden, he thought to himself, wait, why are we celebrating this guy? Then, he had a moment where he had to reconsider his thoughts about Robert E. Lee. It's a fascinating book, and Ty Seidule is an amazing speaker. You should have seen the speech that he gave to the Alexandria Library Company a few years ago. It's really outstanding. And I think Senator Stewart kind of had a Robert E. Lee and Me moment himself.

Lauren Burke  

Yeah, actually, I do know Ty Seidule. He's from Alexandria. And when he presented the book, he articulated exactly what I think the sort of revelation was. But again, if you don't really think about it, and you've seen the name on the side of schools. The way we teach history in this country is that we don't really get into the details of the Civil War. Particularly as it pertains to African Americans. So, the full effect of the negative side of that is generally not taught. I mean, this is not shocking. I mean, most countries don't teach about the negative things that their country may have had throughout their history. So it's really not that shocking in that sense. But since it has so much presence today, for many people today, to say the least, particularly in the South and Virginia, People are thinking about that more, and that's why we just saw what we saw with regard to the bill with the United Daughters of Confederacy and, of course, the statues that have recently come down.

Michael Pope  

All right, let's take a break when we come back. We will play a round of trivia and read your comments.

All right, let's play a round of trivia. Last week, we asked you who the state senator was who appeared on Late Night with David Letterman and The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

Lauren Burke  

The answer is Adam Ebbin. 

Michael Pope  

Yes. Adam Ebbin is the answer, and we have some winners. The first person to chime in with the correct answer was my colleague and my friend at VPM Shaban Athuman. He texted me with the correct answer early Monday morning. So, thank you for being an early-morning listener.

Lauren Burke  

We also heard from Ebbins Chief of Staff Carter Hutchinson, who obviously got the right answer.

Michael Pope  

Yes. Thank you for listening! I actually live in Senator Ebbin's district. So, I am a constituent of Ebbin. So, thank you for being a supporter of Pod Virginia.

Lauren Burke  

Okay, so what's the trivia question for next week?

Michael Pope  

All right. This is a fun one. This is a topic that people often talk about but don't often think about its origins. When did Virginia impose a one-term limit for the Governor? So Virginia is the only state in the country where you can't run again for a second term. At least not a consecutive term; you can come back after the next four years and run a nonconsecutive term. But the Constitution actually has this limitation, a one-term limit for governors. What year did Virginia impose this one-term limit on its governors?

Lauren Burke  

If you think you know the answer, hit us up on social media; you might even win a prize.

Michael Pope  

All right, Lauren, what's the latest you're hearing around the water cooler?

Lauren Burke  

Oh, what I'm going to talk about around the water cooler is the event that Speaker Scott just had at Richmond's Main Street Station, the Black and White ball. And I want to talk about one of those rare moments where you have certain folks in the room that you typically do not have in the room together. Anybody who can achieve that in our politics today should definitely get a shout-out, in my view. But I'm a history nerd. And I love it when a bunch of historic people are standing around. And so I thought it was a pretty big thrill to see in the same room our 66th Governor, L. Douglas Wilder, and our congressman from Hampton Roads, Congressman Bobby Scott. Before I was born, she was 23 years old when she started as a shipfitter at Norfolk Naval Shipyard. That would be L. Louise Lucas, who, of course, is the President pro tem of the Senate. But the other thing about the event is that it commemorated Black history, month and crossover, and to me, the historic number of African Americans currently serving in the Virginia General Assembly. It's good to see a good number of Republicans in the room. And that included the Republican Governor of Virginia, Glenn Youngkin. But I also saw Leader Surrovell, of course, a Democrat, and the Leader of the Republican Party, Brian McDougal, in the same room. I would say that that's a major feat. I've been going to political events since I was 12 or 13; my mother worked for a politician. Usually, what you see is the same thing over and over again: the same people at the same events, just talking to each other. And that's pretty much it. So, to have an event where you have a diverse group, demographically and politically, and geographically, as well, A lot of folks came up from Hampton Roads for this event. It was nice; it was just nice to see. And a free event. I think it was great. I think it was fantastic. And hopefully, Speaker Scott does it every single year. 

Michael Pope  

You know, I saw the pictures all over social media, and Lauren, it looked like a really fun time. I wish I could have gone.

Lauren Burke  

Well, you know, maybe in the future, you never know. You never know what can happen. And I will say that. I hope they invite more photographers. I think from a photography standpoint alone, it was sort of fun to see certain people together. It hit me when I was standing in the room that Lieutenant Governor, Republican Lieutenant Governor Winsome Sears. A historic lieutenant governor, the first Black female Lieutenant Governor of Virginia standing room, and I should have gotten them together for a photo. She actually ran against Congressman Scott in 2004. 

Michael Pope  

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. 

Lauren Burke  

Yeah. 

Michael Pope  

That's one of the archives there. 

Lauren Burke  

Yeah, I forgot about that. She had an all-white outfit on, and I should have gotten Congressman Scott and her in the same photo just then. But it just occurred to me that having them in the same room is such a rare thing. I can see that your buddy is there. Your colleague there, Jeff Schapiro, is throwing out a few missives on Twitter with regard to this event. I don't know that I would define this event as something that the Leader threw for himself. In thinking about so many events that I've been to, I'm struggling to remember One where the host paid for everything. With the Virginia General Assembly, you cannot fundraise during the session. So, typically, that means nobody has an event during the session. So, the fact that there was an event during the session is sort of a big deal. But the Speaker paid for everything, which is a rarity in itself. But I just think from a historical standpoint, having certain folks in the room at the same time just to be able to talk and converse is a valuable thing. Because there aren't a whole lot of opportunities for that. And everybody is encouraged to be partisan at all times. It's not conducive to people talking to each other. And this is a great setting to do that. So, from that standpoint, it was a lot of fun. And again, I hope he does it every single year.

Michael Pope  

Well, I hope he, at some point in the future, considers possibly opening it up to the press because his friends in the Fourth Estate couldn't have been there and seen all this history in action and maybe even written about it in the newspapers, talk about it on podcasts. So perhaps in the future, there might be some kind of media presence there. It's just a point of personal privilege for me because I kind of want to go.  

Lauren Burke  

Absolutely, we live in this time where the media and everyone are so aggressive for traffic and attention for the retweet for the like button. I do think that one thing that is frozen out is when someone has an event, they have to be so careful about who they invite me. I'm sure you've read stories about famous people who require people who enter their homes to leave their cell phones and a basket at the door, like that type of thing. 

Michael Pope  

People who live in a boat, that type of thing? 

Lauren Burke  

Yeah, not just the skiff, but just living everyday life. Because, like everything, it is turned into some way to expose that publicly someplace. Now, in this type of event, obviously, the attendees do not put their photos in a space that may be public. But questions of, you know, putting stuff out or not putting stuff out or having people there who are covering it have become a little bit more complicated over the last ten years because of the technology. Because I remember not really even thinking about that when I first started going to political events so long ago or when I was an intern in Ted Kennedy's office. I didn't think that we didn't have cell phones like we have now. But now I can see why, I can see why people, when they have an event, have to consider, Okay, well, who exactly is this? And are they going to put the stuff out? And do we care one way or the other? So we'll see. I'm sure moving forward. This is such a fun thing. And it's a Black History Month thing, and all that is fun thing. I'm sure it'll open up as we go forward. Although, I obviously can't speak for the Speaker. But we'll see, we'll see what happens. 

Michael Pope  

It kind of reminded me of that woman at the March for Life who said, Oh, you're with NPR. I'm not talking to you about that.

Lauren Burke  

Yeah, I mean, we got to do a media episode one of these days. It's a lot to unpack there. So Michael, what are you hearing around the water cooler? 

Michael Pope  

Well, people are buzzing about the decision of WAMU, the Washington NPR station, to suddenly and abruptly fire 15 journalists. It's ostensibly to move in a direction where they're producing more audio. But Lauren, there's a problem with that because the 15 people they just canned actually did audio. So, it's unclear what the folks at WAMU are up to exactly. Their press release said that they were announcing a new strategy to deepen engagement with Washingtonians. I am not exactly sure what that means. But people are upset about it. Several of the 15 people who were fired are friends of mine from when I used to work at WAMU. I left WAMU back in 2016 to move over to Virginia Public Radio, which is based in Roanoke. And so some of these people that were fired last week actually had been there for a very long period of time. Doing great journalism over an extended number of years. Some of these people were there so long they kind of dedicated the bulk of their professional lives to WAMU. So the fact that they have just been axed all of a sudden is really sad news, upsetting news, to many people, including Senator Danica Roem. The lone former journalist in the Virginia State Senate posted this on social media: "The demise of DCist and contracting of WAMU is a disservice for readers, listeners, policymakers and the entire DMV." so yeah, the 15 people that were asked, were part of DCist, which is this property that WAMU owns. So, I guess, ostensibly, the idea is they want to move in the direction of producing more audio versus producing content for this website. And that was the premise of getting rid of these particular 15 people. But the problem is that those 15 people were actually producing audio. So the logic of getting rid of the 15 people is a little bit mysterious; we don't quite have all of the details. And there's this big mystery of getting rid of the archive. It's actually rare when a media outlet suddenly stops publication; usually, what happens is that it becomes kind of an archive site. Or a ghost site where you go, and the most recent thing that has been posted was maybe from two years ago because they are no longer producing new content. The problem with the DCist is what happened last week; they just suddenly zapped the entire website. So you can't go back and read stories that were done last month; you cannot go back and read stories that were done last year. And this is an archive of really great stories that somebody needs to get their hands on. So, there is a lot of really bad news here. The firing of the 15 journalists is bad, and the sudden and abrupt disappearance of the DCist archive is also quite concerning. 

Lauren Burke  

Yeah, well, the latest firing of the 15 journalists. We've had what I would consider a transformation in the media business that really started probably about 10 or 15 years ago because, of course, Facebook and Google are dominating people's attention. In the attention economy, the way ads are sold has completely changed. We've gone from display ads to, of course, digital ads, and people are able to be marketed in completely different ways that really do kill the metrics of profit for local journalism and local media. So it is imperative if you are someone who is a journalist coming up at this time, you have to really be thinking very strategically about where you work and what their business model is. And what is it that is gonna make money for that company? We saw that thing with a messenger where they had raised millions of dollars and went down. I think it was a little less than a year. In the same week that this happened with DCist, it looks like Vice News is finally going out of business. So, at any rate, I do think that DCist had the built-in problem of being in a city that's not that big. Washington, DC, is, I believe, still under 700,000 people. And you're competing up against the Washington Post, which, even though they had a pretty big buyout recently that gutted their Metro desk, it didn't cut everything, they're still doing Metro news. So, DCist was competing directly against the Washington Post. So I do think that when you look at what the driving force of decision-making of executives at these places is, which is really consumer metrics rather than the metrics of what's good for a community. What ends up happening is they are marketing to specific audiences that make specific amounts of money. And that typically means seeing what we just saw because local news, particularly in certain locations, local news is not as valuable as that. You see the Washington Post all the time bragging about how they're setting up bureaus overseas and not paying that much attention to the local community. Your point with regard to the archive, I have a feeling that that will be fixed at some point. But it was surprising to me because what they did was really the equivalent of what happens when someone on broadcast news gets fired, which they never let the anchor on again after firing them in fear that the anchor will blow up everybody and criticize them on the air on live TV. But obviously, on a platform like this, that is not a comparable example. So I was surprised they took the site down on the day that they made the announcement, which you could kind of see coming about 24 hours before because they put out this sort of cryptic, all-hands-on-deck meeting notice the night before. They may well just put out on Twitter, hey, we're gonna fire everybody in the morning. Everybody saw that news and knew it was coming, but they took the site down. That was kind of odd. That was odd.

Michael Pope  

Very odd. I've never heard of any news organization doing anything like that before. I mean, odd and also kind of a red flag, like, what's going on here?

Lauren Burke  

Well, believe it or not, it happened before. Usually, it's because they don't want to pay the Internet Service Provider bill. 

Michael Pope  

We're probably talking about a $10 check here. This is not a lot of money we're talking about here.

Lauren Burke  

I do think that's probably going to be worked out. Because all that stuff remains on a server someplace that someone can access. So, I'm not sure why there would be a problem accessing that for at least the writers who created that content. So that is an odd thing. I have seen that before. I'm trying to remember the company that did it. It is kind of crazy. But I do think that type does stir up a lot of ill will. When there are people walking out the door, it's not a good idea. But at any rate, I think that the news business is one where you have to be very specific in whatever niche you're focused on. And you have to win in terms of new information coming out on the platform that you have. I'm not certain that DCS was doing that enough to justify their existence, which is why this happened. It's a tough business right now. And you have to be very aware of what brings the money in and what doesn't. And I know it's a difficult and heartless game at times, which is what we just saw.

Michael Pope  

One more note about the question of archiving: It is very important to think about. As a point of personal privilege, I spend a lot of time digging through archives from newspapers that no longer exist. Newspapers that were published 100 years ago, sometimes newspapers that were published 50 years ago, and news magazines that aren't around anymore. And it's actually really important to have access to archives of journalism that was going on contemporaneously. So, at some point in the future, people will want to know what's happening in 2024. And they're going to have to rely on archives of journalism that was done at the time. And it's one thing for the DCist to suddenly not be around anymore. I'm hoping that one of the many news sites that archive news copy has either already gotten their hands on the DCist archive or will, at some point in the future, get their hands on the DCist archives. So there's this great website called Newsbank; it's actually not available to you if you're on Google. The only way to get to Newsbank is with a library card, and you actually log in through the library. So, if you're doing a Google search, it's not going to come up. You actually have to go through the password on your library card in order to have access to this online archive of news articles. And they archive all kinds of stuff. A good example is you'll frequently see things that were written for Blue Virginia. I'm sure you're familiar with Blue Virginia, the blog. It's actually archived by one of these news archiving sites. So, like LexisNexis and Newsbank, there are a bunch of groups out there that archive news content for future researchers. So, if someone's out there listening to the sound of my voice, hopefully, it would be great if we could figure out a way for the archive of the DCist to be not only available on the DCist website but also available on websites like Newsbank, and LexisNexis.

Lauren Burke  

Well, I will say that, as somebody who spends a little bit of time over the Library of Congress. They are getting better at archiving, Newsbank, and some of these companies that are coming up are getting really good at the Digital Archive side of of news. And I need the Library of Virginia to speed it up a bit, though.

Michael Pope  

I love the Library of Virginia; I'm not going to say anything negative about the Library of Virginia.

Lauren Burke  

I love the Library of Virginia. It's just that they're kicking it old school sometimes on their archive.

Michael Pope  

 Oh, yeah. Okay.

Lauren Burke  

I love going through the papers of certain governors. Which may or may not be their fault. And it's a lot to go through. I'm not trying to say it isn't. If you do any sort of historical work, you'll know it's a lot to go through. But I will give a tip of the cap to the Library of Congress because they're starting to go not only digital but also online so everybody can access it, particularly with regard to their photography facility. So you're right. In this world that we live in, hopefully, somebody will do an AI thing on digital archiving.

Michael Pope  

All right, let's head over to the Pod Virginia mailbag. Lauren, what are our listeners talking about?

Lauren Burke  

Wow, that episode of Susanna Gibson really has people talking. Fairfax City Mayor Catherine Reed chimed in to say this, "It was a great episode where remarks at the end are particularly impactful. Spiteful people amusing themselves online do not care about the trauma they inflict on others or the real world consequences". 

Michael Pope  

Catherine White posted this, "really great interview. I love Pod Virginia, Michael Pope and Laurin Burke are fabulous interviewers. Pope did not get invited to the hottest event the Black and White Gala." oh, yeah, tell me about it. Catherine White, I agree with you. Speaker Don Scott, if you're listening, I want to be on the guest list next year. I'll even rent a tuxedo.

Lauren Burke  

You and I should go together next year. How's that? 

Michael Pope  

Yes, yes, I like it. Yeah, you and I are at the Black and White Gala. Alright, Steve Verdere posted this: "Great discussion on controversial topics, three folks with different views, civility, and humor all around." Thank you.

Lauren Burke  

We also heard from a bunch of our early-morning listeners. 

Michael Pope  

Yeah. So last week, we were talking about how someone had responded to our trivia question really early in the morning, and I kind of just sort of casually wasn't even in the script. I just sort of came to me like to ask our listeners if they were early morning listeners, and wow, I was not prepared for the response; we got to this one.

Lauren Burke  

Shawn Weneta chimed in to say this, "everyone in Virginia politics listens to Pod Virginia first thing every Monday and Thursday morning, Michael Pope and Lauren Burke keep us updated on what is happening in the Virginia General Assembly, especially regarding second look."

Michael Pope  

Yes, thank you, Shawn. That episode, about second look, currently has more downloads than the Susanna Gibson episode. So congratulations for now, but those metrics often move, so it seems like a lot of our listeners are giving a second listen.

Lauren Burke  

John Murray posted this, "one of the absolute best sources of information for folks on both sides of the aisle, and those of us working in between is Pod Virginia. Michael Pope and Lauren Burke delivery easy to follow podcast with superb interviews. You won't want to miss".

Michael Pope  

Randy Riffle posted this: I listen to Pod Virginia first thing every Monday and Thursday morning on my way to Richmond from James City County. Lauren Burke and Michael Pope helped me keep up with what's happening in the chamber across the hall and around the Commonwealth".

Lauren Burke  

This is so vain.

Michael Pope  

It is an exercise in vanity, but hey, these people love Pod Virginia.

Lauren Burke  

Rob, who I tweet a lot. Thanks, Rob posted this "terrific analysis as usual by Lauren Burke on Pod Virginia this morning. Mass surveillance is a racial justice issue also. If these bills aren't expansion to help someone's bottom line, then why is Vox Safety pushing them?"

Michael Pope  

Yes, we did explore that in last week's episode. Jess Brown posted this, "I listened to Pod Virginia first thing every Monday morning before I meet my running group. Michael Pope and Lauren Burke helped me keep updated on what's happening in the Virginia General Assembly, especially regarding the fight for $15 and all things Virginia politics". So wow, that was a lot of people chiming in to say that they are early-morning listeners. So thank you, as you're meeting your running group. Thank you as you're driving in from James City County. Some people tell me they're in the shower when they listen to Pod Virginia. So, thanks for letting us join you in the shower. Let's celebrate some birthdays this week.

Lauren Burke  

Monday, February 26th. It is the birthday of Senator Tim Kaine.

Michael Pope  

Yes, February 26th is also the birthday of Delegate Geary Higgins.

Lauren Burke  

Thursday, February 29th. It is the birthday of Congressman Ben Klein. 

Michael Pope  

He was actually born on that date, which only appears on leap years. So, he may be a lot younger than his actual chronological age because of the date his birthday falls on. Legally, is he even old enough to be in Congress? I think that's an open question for mathematicians to answer. Friday is the beginning of March, which means it's Women's History Month and, as we said earlier on the podcast, Problem Gambling Awareness Month. So keep that in mind as we go into the conference committee to determine the fate of skill games. 

Lauren Burke  

Problem Gambling Awareness Month is going to be the month when Glenn Youngkin signs the bill allowing skill games in convenience stores across Virginia. 

Michael Pope  

That's where the smart money is two-to-one odds.

Lauren Burke  

That's it for this episode of Pod Virginia.