Michael Pope

Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the ongoing transition of power in Virginia. I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, the transition to renewable energy. We're talking about the Virginia Clean Economy Act, a major environmental breakthrough for Virginia that will move the Commonwealth from being retrograde to on the vanguard of states doing something about climate change.

Michael Pope

And we have an amazing panel here to walk us through this new law and what's happened since it passed last year. We're joined by State Senator from Richmond who introduced the bill. Now, you might have heard of her a lot in recent days because she ran for Governor and got about 60,000 votes in the Democratic Primary. She didn't get the nomination, but she was a strong voice on the campaign trail for a strong, inclusive, and cleaner economy. Senator Jennifer McClellan, thanks for joining us.

Jennifer McClellan

Thanks for having me.

Thomas Bowman

We're also joined by the Executive Director for Virginia Advanced Energy Economy, someone who worked with lawmakers as they were crafting the Clean Economy Act. Harry Godfrey, thanks for being on the show.

Harry Godfrey

Thank you so much for having me.

Thomas Bowman

Alright Harry, tell us about Virginia Advanced Energy Economy. What is your organization and what role did it play in negotiating the Clean Economy Act?

Harry Godfrey

Sure. So we are a coalition of Advanced Energy businesses. We run the gamut in terms of these technologies from renewable energy developers, the folks who manufacture those products, energy efficiency companies, so folks who both build those things, install them, maintain and operate them. Energy storage, electric vehicle, and electric vehicle charging infrastructure folks, as well as entrepreneurs in cutting edge fields like smart grid technology, home automation, and large corporate buyers who have sustainability goals and are thinking a lot about how they meet their decarbonisation standards as they continue to build and operate in Virginia. So these are large fortune 500 fortune 100 companies who pay a great deal of attention to exactly what their energy profile looks like and the profile the energy they consume in Virginia looks like.

Michael Pope

Now, Harry, you are working with Senator McClellan, who was the patron. Senator, what is the Virginia Clean Economy Act? What problem were you trying to solve with this legislation.

Jennifer McClellan

So the Clean Economy Act is a landmark bill that moves Virginia, from a fossil fuel based, electric generation model, to 100% clean energy standard. And it makes Virginia the first state in the South to do that, and also one of the top dozen or so that has a true clean energy standard. I like to think of it, if you're thinking about climate change, as a race, and part of what we need to do to address climate change is really reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, you can't begin to win that race until you build the car. And so the VCEA really was building the car to begin that race against the clock on addressing climate change. And it has sort of four main pillars, we recognize that you needed to address both the supply side and the demand side. So it prioritizes demand side resources like energy efficiency, which is the most cost effective way to control the demand side, it phases out the fossil based power plants, coal, oil, natural gas, with fixed retirement dates for those plants. It establishes a clean energy standard every year, utilities have to get more of their electricity from clean water resources like wind, solar, and hydro. And then it really unleashes roof top solar. Because for years, there were regulations that stood in the way of really unleashing solar that were based on nothing but public policy. And so the VCEA and the companion bill, the Solar Freedom Act, really opened those up so that more families, businesses, and governments could go the solar route. And it does it in a way that also makes it the public policy of the state to really focus our economic development on energy projects in particular, but more broadly, on those parts of the state in those communities of the state that are central to this transition. So making sure we are focusing on bringing new jobs and new economic development opportunities to those communities that are going to see fossil fuel based plants close.

Thomas Bowman

The bill set 2050 as the magic date and a lot of progressives and environmentalist organizations said 2050 is going to be way too late to stop the changing climate that we're in, the crisis that we're in today. So why did we set 2050? And what should the expectation be for environmentalist organizations and progressives who want something a little bit stronger moving forward?

Jennifer McClellan

So I think, you know, we had to make sure that we were doing this transition in a way that still allowed the lights to stay on and meet our electricity demands real time. And so before we wrote the bill, there was a study done that Harry can probably give more detail on, that kind of showed 2050 is a reachable goal. And again, you can't win a race until you've got the car on the track. And you're always trying to improve your time. So just as the Biden/Harris Administration has chosen 2035 as a goal, and are going to take steps to reach 2035, now that we have the infrastructure in place for this transition, we can work to accelerate it, but the first step was getting the bill in place and getting the car on the track because you can't get anywhere if you don't have that vehicle to begin the race.

Harry Godfrey

Yeah, absolutely. I think the Senator's spot on in terms of that dynamic and the nature. And I will say, so Virginia AE, we're close to the center, as well as a coalition of partners from the environmental and ratepayer communities as well, to help craft this bill. And obviously, you know, because our investor owned utilities are a major player in the state had to negotiate that very carefully. I will say, you know, in that process, I think there are two things to keep in mind. The first one is that investor owned utilities were skeptical of the ability to meet that and, you know, early on, there was a lot of pushback from them within the negotiating room about when we would start this, you know, discussions about starting this in the latter part of the 2020s and then pushing those dates much further back. So the fact that we have what we have in this bill is, I think, a remarkable testament to the coalition of folks who work to move this forward. And to, obviously, Senator McClellan and her co patron on the House side, Delegate Rip Sullivan. So that's the first thing to keep in mind. The second thing to keep in mind is how fast the conversation around climate and clean energy has moved. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that the idea of 100% clean grid was unheard of and unthinkable as policy anywhere in the United States of America. And certainly, as we sort of started looking towards this bill, and moving forward around that, even then that struck everyone is a very ambitious goal. Now we're to the point where we have laws like the Clean Economy Act in place, and the discussion is, can we move those deadlines forward? And to be clear, just one quick point of clarification here. It's 2050 for Appalachian Power, but for the largest investor owned utility in Virginia, Dominion Energy, that 100% goal sits at 2045.

Michael Pope

Well, let's look at 2050. So peering into the future of for this end goal that we've got in 2050, might not come soon enough for people that want it to come sooner. But once we're actually there, in 2050, Transition Virginia Podcast, is in it's, what, like 30th season? Tell us about what the Clean Economy Act will have accomplished by that end date, whenever it is. Senator, we'll start with you and then go to Harry Godfrey.

Jennifer McClellan

So I think we will have significantly reduced greenhouse gases and emissions in our air, and the energy that we generate and use will be cleaner will be more efficient, will be more reliable, and less expensive. And I'll take that in kind of pieces. You know, think back to when the shutdown in response to COVID first started, and we saw cleaner air. And I think that and the health impacts of cleaner air, we will start to see, and there'll be this whole new, I guess by then it won't be that new, but a thriving new economy based on advanced energy and clean energy jobs, you know, really good paying middle class jobs, that are focused on energy efficiency on solar and wind. And I think it's important to understand the Clean Economy Act, it's a very big piece of a larger puzzle to addressing climate change with transportation and building efficiency being a part of it. And so between now and when we reach 100% clean energy, I expect those other pieces of the puzzle to have also been put in place, where we just have cleaner air, and better health outcomes as a result of that, and thriving industry here in Virginia, that Virginia is really leading the way and one of the leaders in the nation on clean energy, solar energy, wind energy and energy efficiency businesses.

Thomas Bowman

Senator, I'm so glad you mentioned the jobs and that they need to be good jobs in the renewable energy industry. When I was a lobbyist for the Laborers International Union, in Virginia, one thing that I learned is while the best jobs for construction and energy are in nuclear power plants, one, we're not building those anymore, and the second best jobs, are building pipelines, which is why labor unions, at least the construction industry unions, were so enthusiastic about building them. And then the wind and solar panel jobs are not good, at the moment. You have a couple team of people, in college usually, working for minimum wage, who just can slap these things together in just a span of months. And then you need somebody to pour concrete, and you need an electrician just to wire it to the grid. And there's not really a good model to ensure that they are good, stable, union jobs, the way that it currently exists. So you know, just interjection. I'm just very glad to hear that you and the Virginia Legislature, we're cognizant of needing to ensure that these renewable energy jobs were good.

Jennifer McClellan

Oh, absolutely. And we and we are also focused on making sure that they're jobs that are filled, you know, by Virginians, and filled locally, which was included in the Act. And also since then, one of the things that we heard from the solar industry in particular, is that, you know, we really need to ramp up the labor pool of skilled workers who can do these jobs. And so we put in the budget, a pilot program that we will look to expand to really begin with Southwest Community College and other community colleges really quickly, doing training to get the workers who can do these jobs quickly. I also made clear that I wanted to build a partnership with our HBCUs so that we have a diverse labor pool, but you're exactly right. We want to make sure that these are well paying, good jobs, that would rival, or even be better, than the pipeline jobs, as you mentioned. And back in the day, you know, a lot of the coal based jobs were well paying jobs as well. So that has to be part of this transition. It was critically important that this transition be one that leaves no worker behind and no part of Virginia behind because one of the push backs we kept hearing was, you know, in some parts of Virginia, you know, I think of Wise County, that fossil fuel plant that coal plant out there is, you know, one of the largest employers and we've seen the tension. You know, I represent Charles City County that had two gas plants that were seeking to come and they've already got a landfill. And there's this tension of some areas are so desperate for jobs and economic development opportunities, that sometimes that competes against our broader climate goals, our environmental goals, our environmental justice goals. We have got to take that holistic view, to say, "We are going to replace our dependence on fossil fuels with clean energy in a way that leaves no worker and no part of Virginia behind."

Harry Godfrey

Yeah, the solar sector is only one small part of the larger advanced energy economy, the clean energy economy we're talking about. But even there, you know, statistics from the Bureau of Labor show that your average solar installer starts out at about $40,000 a year. A wind turbine technician, and these are two of the fastest growing jobs in our economy, starts out at $53,000 a year. So very good, reasonable wage, middle class jobs that we're talking about, just sort of brass tacks numbers. But there is a really wide range of jobs within the advanced energy space. I mean, folks doing energy efficiency, folks doing solar installation, and we're both talking about large scale, but also rooftop solar installation, operations and maintenance, electric vehicle charging infrastructure like that. Across the entirety of our Commonwealth today, Advanced Energy employs over 93,000 people. And just to put that statistic in context, that's more than all the folks who are employed in business and management consulting across the state, which is, we're talking about folks employed at Deloitte, Booz Allen Hamilton, not a small part of our economy. And there are over four times the number in advanced energy than there are in telecommunications. So this is a significant part of our economy as a whole. And as we look towards the future, in 2050, you know, our, the Virginia Energy Transition Report that Senator McClellan referenced earlier in this show, showed that once the VCEA is in full effect, and sort of going full steam, we could be looking at creating upwards of 13,000, new sort of good family sustaining jobs, in Virginia every single year. So if we talk about 2050, what does this look like in very simple terms, hundreds of 1000s of people employed in good, clean, family sustaining jobs in Virginia, in the advanced energy sector. So I think that's just one note of optimism. I think it's a sea of economic dynamics that we think about as we think about what the future looks like, under the Clean Economy Act. It is jobs and good paying family sustaining jobs.

Michael Pope

And you know, even before the Clean Economy Act was passed, the jobs in the solar industry were already booming. I did a story for Virginia Public Radio back in 2016. And I was looking at some job statistics and government, you know, databases, and realized that there were actually more solar jobs in Virginia than coal jobs, already, way back in 2016. So this, I mean, looking ahead, are we looking at an industry here that is going to be booming? Or what would you say to critics who say, "These jobs aren't as good, and they don't pay as well? And maybe they're part time." And you know, then you bring in issues of like worker misclassification, and they're not good, solid, full time jobs with health benefits. What would you say to that criticism?

Harry Godfrey

I think the sort of jobs that we're talking about creating through the Clean Economy Act, which just aren't aren't just the installation jobs, but the operations and maintenance jobs, as well as the larger jobs, building out the entirety of these businesses. And then the manufacturing jobs, I'm particularly excited about the offshore wind opportunities that this creates. We have an ideal location for building a robust offshore wind industry around the port of Virginia around Hampton Roads, Newport News, Virginia Beach in that area. I mean, those are good manufacturing jobs, the likes of which we do not often see sort of grow and become established in Virginia in this day and age. So I think there's real optimism there. You know, there's also this dynamic, absolutely, we are seeing the fossil fuel industry, and I'm including coal in that, gradually shrink. Managing that just transition also that there is environmental justice in this, but that those communities see new economic opportunities because let's be clear, entirely outside of The Clean Economy Act, and I think, Michael, this goes to your point a little bit earlier, entirely outside of the Clean Economy Act, that segment of the U.S. economy has been on the wane as the cost of renewables and clean energy has steadily dropped below the cost of running even an existing coal plant, let alone building a new one, and increasingly is getting comparable with, or below that, of a natural gas plant. So as those fundamental economics change, whether or not we have something like the Clean Economy Act in place, we need intentional policies to help transition those communities to the resources of the future. The Clean Economy Act, in specific provisions, intentionally sets out to help transition those, and create good sustainable jobs for the future. A $40,000 job in Southwestern Virginia is absolutely a family sustaining job that can move forward. And we want to build more of those. But only once we reach a critical mass, are we able to attract larger industries and manufacturers who can come in as well and create even more jobs around.

Michael Pope

Alright, well, let's take a break. When we come back, we're going to get into the legislation and what it does. We're going to talk about rooftop solar, and reducing carbon emissions, and reducing energy waste. We're joined by Senator Jennifer McClellan and Harry Godfrey. We'll be right back.

And we're back on Transition Virginia, we're talking about the Clean Economy Act. And I want to get into what the legislation actually accomplishes and how it works. The first pillar here is reducing energy waste, which of course, has been a goal of many advocates for years and years. This new law actually accomplishes that. Harry Godfrey, talk about reducing energy waste and how the Virginia Clean Economy Act hopes to accomplish that.

Harry Godfrey

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you Michael. A couple of different ways...I think the single largest thing is that the Clean Economy Act requires our investor owned utilities to meet energy efficiency benchmarks. So every year, they have to deploy programs to help families and businesses across the Commonwealth in their service territories, save energy, that could be through the installation of more efficient appliances, home retrofits and weatherization, small business programs that are specialized the needs of that particular business. But fundamentally, for the first time in our Commonwealth's history, there are very specific and concrete requirements for these utilities to actually go about deploying this. And we're very confident that the utilities can go about meeting these standards. AEE recently worked with a coalition of other organizations, ACEEE, TNC, and the National Housing Trust to put together a report that looked very carefully at comparable utilities throughout the Southeast and Midwest, to see the sort of energy efficiency programs they're running, and see whether or not having Dominion, and Appalachian Power run those sort of programs, will allow them to achieve our targeted energy savings, and meet those goals. And the answer is, yes, they absolutely can. And we can go beyond that still. So we're really enthusiastic about this opportunity, because fundamentally, energy efficiency is our least cost form of clean energy. It is the energy we don't use, and that is highly cost effective. So this is an extraordinary opportunity to do that. And it's why this is a really central pillar of the Clean Economy Act.

Jennifer McClellan

Yeah, I think just to kind of emphasize, if you're not looking at both the supply side and the demand side, then it's going to be very difficult to meet your clean energy goals. And so that, in addition to just the benefits of reducing energy waste, and being more efficient, and the cost savings that come with that, it's also sort of makes sure that you are able to meet your demand by controlling your demand.

Michael Pope

But before we move on from reducing energy waste, both of you were talking about saving money. One of the Republican criticisms of this bill, is that your energy bill will go up. This is the message from Republicans about the Clean Economy Act as we move into the fall campaign season, is the Clean Economy Act will increase your energy bill by $800. How do you respond to that criticism?

Jennifer McClellan

Well, I think first, it's not true. We have and again, Harry can speak a little more detail into this, but that Advanced Energy Economy did their own report that showed that by moving to 100% carbon free electricity, and particularly because of the energy efficiency goals, that power bills actually would decrease over time and save the average household about $3500 over 30 years. So I don't know what they're basing their argument on. But we also had some some safeguards in place, you know, first by prioritizing the least cost effective resources. And as the bill is implemented, Delegate Sullivan and I, and the stakeholders, are looking very closely to make sure that the utilities are using cost effective resources and the least cost options. And if we have to step in to course correct, we will. Also by having a gradual phase in, it lessens any chance of bill increases and rate shock over the short term. And I think that goes back to part of why we chose 2050 as the date, rather than 2030 or something even sooner. And then finally, the bill gives regulators the power to ensure that those costs of renewable projects are kept in check, and are built in a transparent, cost competitive way. It was very important to us that it's not just okay, you know, Dominion and APCO, go build your gold plated, you know, wind turbines, or that we are actually looking at, are you using a competitive bid process? Are you using the most cost effective, low cost method, to reach these goals? So, we didn't just give them a blank check to go build whatever they want to build at whatever cost and then pass that directly on to consumers.

Harry Godfrey

Yeah. Here are the three reasons why we firmly believe that the VCEA is actually going to help keep electricity bills for Virginia families and businesses stable, if not actually reduce them over the course of its implementation. First, prioritizing energy efficiency. Right now, we just don't do a lot of energy efficiency in the state. Because until now, we haven't required utilities to actually implement those sort of programs and provide that sort of relief to consumers. There's a lot of what we refer to as, "low hanging fruit out there," for us to pick to help people reduce their energy usage, and save money in the process and lower their bills. So energy efficiency is the first element of that. The second element is increasingly, renewable resources are the most cost effective resources available, developing those resources out that have a low and stable price. Because look, once you build a solar farm, once you build a wind farm, the cost of that power does not change, because there's no fuel risk in that. So helping to make certain that those are low costs, and stable costs, is critically important. And the third thing is that some the most expensive riders on Virginians bills today are riders being used to help prop up otherwise non economic fossil fuel resources. And so having specific retirement dates to phase these increasingly non economic resources off our system, so that we're not paying for them anymore, and using more cost effective resources, helps keep bills low and stable. So for all of those reasons, the Clean Economy Act not only helps us make the transition to clean energy, but it does so in a really cost effective manner.

Thomas Bowman

Great. Well, the second pillar is harnessing the power of wind and sun. Senator McClellan, maybe this is obvious, but what does that exactly mean?

Jennifer McClellan

So basically, the bill removes some of the barriers that were in place, in Virginia law, to deploying distributed solar, rooftop solar, and utility grade solar that were not based on technology, but were based solely on public policy decisions made long ago, that prioritized fossil fuel based. So there were about, you know, six or eight or so specific restrictions that were lifted through the Clean Economy Act and the Solar Freedom Bill. So one example is there was a prohibition on rooftop solar on multifamily dwellings, which there's not much reason for, and if you want to ensure that you have sort of clear access for everyone, to the power of solar, multifamily homes are a critical part of that. And Harry can go into a few more of the details like that, but that's kind of what we need is those policies in state law that disincentivize, or make it more difficult, or outright prohibit the installation of rooftop solar, utility grade solar, or wind projects, this bill got rid of them.

Harry Godfrey

Yep. In addition to that, the other thing that bill puts in place is a clean energy standard. And what that says really simply, is every single year, our utilities need to go out and get an ever greater share of the energy we use, from clean energy resources, That's wind, solar, hydro, and if in the future new technologies are invented, that are zero emission, clean resources, they too can be part of that mix as well. So utilizing those, starting from our existing sort of baseload nuclear generation, that's here, look, about 30% of Virginia's energy system has already powered through a zero emission resource, that's our nuclear generation. This law keeps that in place and builds upon that foundation with wind, solar and other renewable resources. But that's what it really means to harness the wind and sun and build that out over time. We're creating a clear pathway that steadily steps up our state every single year, giving us time to make that transition in the least cost manner possible, with maximum transparency, and competitive bidding through that process, lots of different ways that our utilities can go about acquiring that generation. So it's the least cost to customers, but ultimately doing that every single year, so that we're getting steadily more, and our grid gets cleaner and cleaner.

Michael Pope

One of the criticisms you hear about solar power is that these solar panels are made in China with toxic chemicals. What's your reaction to that criticism? Senator, we'll start with you.

Jennifer McClellan

Well, I think by opening up a market, you also will open, and Harry kind of touched on this in the beginning, you open up a demand for more solar panels to be built here and creating that market for manufacturing here. If you don't have a marketplace for those to be sold, it doesn't incentivize anybody to even enter that market. So I think that's the, the first response to that.

Harry Godfrey

Yeah, you know, in addition to that, a couple of things worth noting here, the vast majority of the soil that we're talking about here is polysilicon, which sounds really technical and complex, but it's basically refined sand. And then with glass, aluminum, steel frame, or racking structure on it. So the claim of, "toxic chemicals," doesn't seem to be based in a factual analysis of the actual technology being utilized and deployed here. This is not a toxic risk. And certainly that's only one type of renewable generation that we're talking about here. And then I would reinforce the Senator's point as well on this, we're seeing a domestic solar industry steadily grow, as we do more in Virginia, and then nationally, with things like the American Jobs Plan that President Biden has proposed. We're going to see more of that industry come here. But until we make these commitments, and demonstrate a long term growth trajectory, like the Virginia Clean Economy Act does, there's relatively little reason for solar manufacturers to locate closer to sources of demand, because they just don't know whether it's going to exist. The Clean Economy Act helps to change that.

Jennifer McClellan

Yeah. And I would add one quick thing to that is that there is there is no question that the fossil based generation, whether it's coal or natural gas, clearly has toxic byproducts and the social cost of carbon, as you see not only increased sea levels and higher, higher temperatures and climate change, but asthma and higher incidence of asthma in the areas where these plants are, that is also something you've got to take account. You've got to look at that broader holistic impact and cost of continuing to use fossil fuels going forward. And the impact on communities and the environment of solar and wind is just by far less.

Thomas Bowman

So it strikes me that with all of the empty factories and warehouses in dying or depressed towns, including Danville, Bristol, Martinsville places that are Republican strongholds traditionally, but the Democrats and the people who voted for the VCEA are proposing, is to put more money, eventually, in the residents pockets who live there, and that is, you know, just putting on my political consulting hat, literally the most popular policy any politician can propose.

Harry Godfrey

Yeah, Thomas, absolutely. I was just at, just under a month ago, I was actually at a solar unveiling at Powhatan Elementary School. And if you've been to Powhatan County, outside of Richmond, about 45 minutes outside it, this is a deeply conservative area. But thanks to provisions like those in the Clean Economy Act, this school district, and it's not just a Powhatan Elementary, it's on Powhatan Middle, and a couple of other schools in the district, has been able to take a share of their energy load and move it over to solar. In the process, they're going to save over $3 million, over the lifetime of those projects in their school budgets, dollars they can put back into the classroom and dollars, they can return to taxpayers. And so there are absolutely economic opportunities that can flow to whether it's, you know, deep blue, Northern Virginia, or deep red Central Virginia or Southwestern Virginia, this does not need to be a partisan dynamic. And indeed, when the Clean Economy Act talks about historically, economically disadvantaged communities, we are talking both about communities in the South Side, where there has been issues of environmental injustice. But we're also talking about communities in Central and Southwestern Virginia, where a changing energy landscape is making it increasingly difficult to sustain their way of life. And that creates and economic impact as well.

Michael Pope

Now, solar energy, the generation of solar energy, has been so controversial, and you hear people say all kinds of things about you know, I was, as I was saying earlier, "The solar panels are made in China, they got toxic chemicals, they might give you cancer." Another thing you hear critics say is that, "All these requirements in the Clean Economy Act will require the clear cutting of forests and farmlands." And the number they always use is 500 square miles, which is a huge amount of trees that would be cut down. What do you make of this criticism that requiring all the solar generation will, in turn, require the clear cutting of forests and farmlands in Virginia, which will be replaced with like 100 million solar panels in what used to be, you know, farms and forests? What do you make of that criticism?

Harry Godfrey

You know, I think the first thing to do, I don't know where they're getting those particular calculations. I think in part, they're thinking, "Well, if you just met the entirety of the Clean Economy Act's goals with X, Y, and Z, you'd have to do these things." And I think that is a, that is an overly simplistic interpretation of it. So that's unfortunate to think about, because there's a whole host of clean energy resources that can be deployed and will help meet those clean economy goals. So right there, there's a problem. The Senator I spoke with, and I'm sure we'll talk about this further, the shortage generation, the rooftop generation, that we're able to do. So you're able to take that solar and not necessarily have it on any individual land, but instead, put it on rooftops and utilize it there. There's a real opportunity, and thank goodness, we loosened those regulations, so that we're able to do that, because that was an obstacle in the state. But I think even more fundamentally, you know, let's think about our neighbor immediately to the south in North Carolina. North Carolina has, you know, as of the past couple of years, they have installed over 5000 megawatts of solar. We have about 730 megawatts of solar. I don't know about you, I've driven through North Carolina periodically, I do not think of it as one vast solar farm. I do not think that sort of growth is fundamentally notable. So I think there is ample space in Virginia to accommodate solar development, both on rooftops, but also on land that is underutilized, unutilized in this process, without necessarily fundamentally changing the character of our rural communities. I think there's lots of opportunity there, obviously, each individual solar developer works with localities to make certain that they are accommodating the needs of the residents there. But there's a real opportunity there. I mean, these projects do not put any sort of stress upon local fire or police services, they don't send kids to school, they don't create additional traffic. But there are enormous infusions into the tax base of counties, allowing for a host of different investments to occur that are a real net benefit to these communities as a whole. So, you know, I think about that land use dynamic. And I think it really doesn't look at the full picture. But in addition to that, it also really disregards all the really significant benefits that are coming with these projects, as they are deployed throughout Virginia.

Jennifer McClellan

Yeah, and I would just add to that, I mean, we've already seen, anecdotally, the repurposing of land, not necessarily clear cutting or using farmland, but about a month ago, there was a news story out in Wise County that there are about five different sites that were previously used for coal mining that are going to be converted into sites for solar development. So we've seen in California where some, you know, wineries have started to figure out how they can coexist on the same land, the vineyard for the grapes, and the solar panels. So, and then, Thomas, you kind of touched on, in another question about there, there are lots of brownfield areas or abandoned buildings that can be repurposed as well. So I think that criticism...again, you got to look at this holistically. What we are trying to do is shift an entire industry, and do it in a way that recognizes in some parts of the state, where industries have left, and are not coming back, there's infrastructure in place, and sites in place, that can be repurposed for this new industry.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, and a lot of those cities are on railroad tracks. And if you're building a big old solar farm, or a big old windmill, for example, in these towns and abandoned factories that you've repurposed, you're going to have to transport them to the eventual site. And the way you're going to do that is through trains. It makes a lot of sense that you would want these places that are not necessarily attractive to businesses that want to be right next to D.C. or Richmond, or, or Norfolk, and you can build it in these small towns, that people have been leaving traditionally, over the last 20 years, and revitalize them. This is a great segue, by the way to the third pillar of the Clean Economy Act, which is expanding consumer ownership through rooftop solar. That includes residential, and also solar net metering, which is then, there's been a barrier to using that, traditionally, in Virginia. So Senator, can you explain that priority and what the reality on the ground will be moving forward?

Jennifer McClellan

Yeah, I mean, part of the goal of the Clean Economy Act is we wanted to be sure that all of the solar generated, solar energy generated, wasn't just generated by Dominion, and APPCO. And with the Solar Freedom Bill, which overlaps a little bit with the Clean Economy Act, that was also part of the goal, in that we're democratizing access to solar. And that's why allowing rooftop solar on multi family homes was a critically important goal. And it just makes sense because there are a lot of homeowners, or even, you know, renters, or apartment owners, who want to, on their own, reduce their carbon footprint. You know, my best friend moved back to Virginia from Massachusetts a couple of years ago. And you know, was able to, very easily, have rooftop solar on her home in Massachusetts. And she was just like, "It doesn't make sense that I can't do that here in Virginia." So part of the goal here is it's also consumers themselves, who want to reduce their carbon footprint, but laws, not based on technology or anything other than a policy decision made decades ago, was keeping them from doing that. And so we began to what I like to say, "Democratize access," to rooftop solar.

Harry Godfrey

Yeah, I think one really great example the Clean Economy Act undertook, so a number of years ago, Virginia established what's called a, "Power Purchase Agreement Pilot." What Power Purchase Agreements, PPA's, allow schools, nonprofits, governments to do is enter into a contract with a solar developer who builds solar on their rooftop. And then they essentially lease the generation to, and that resource, to the schools. So there's no upfront cost to the school or non for profit. So it's easy for them to get access to it. But what it helps them do is cut their overall energy costs, while still deploying these resources. Under Virginia law, that pilot had a cap of 50 megawatts, and we were rapidly meeting that cap where within this year, I think we would have hit it. And solar businesses and all those folks who wanted access to it couldn't get access to it. The Clean Economy Act took that cap from 50 megawatts to 1000 megawatts, unlocking that for a whole host of folks who are now better able to access solar, and manage their energy bills in the process. That's just one small example of the sort of democratization that this law brings about for consumers.

Thomas Bowman

You know, and the future is now on this issue, because if you're a Dominion customer, at least, like I am, you can go to your account online and you can choose an option that all 100% of your power generated and used, comes from renewable energy, and you can also opt in to their existing solar net metering program. And so there are more than one way to skin this cat, but for energy efficiency conscious environmentalists listening to our program, you can do some of this right now.

Michael Pope

You know, I've always thought the concept of net metering suffered from a marketing problem, which is the phrase, "net metering," doesn't give you enough information. In fact, it seems kind of perplexing. Net metering, what the heck is that? Like, maybe they should call it, "Cash Money panels," or, "Rooftop windfall," or something like that. But you know, one thing, one part of this that is perplexing to some is that there is a cap on the amount of energy that can be generated from rooftop solar, which I think is like 6%. Right? So like, it caps at the total amount of energy at 6%. Explain this cap and why you would want to go about doing it this way?

Harry Godfrey

Yeah, let's be clear that that cap was a negotiated agreement under the law, that cap had previously been at 1% of total generation in the marketplace. So that cap represents a six fold increase upon the limit that had been imposed before. So you know, is it everything that solar advocates, AEE, would necessarily want? Absolutely not. Do we expect that we're going to continue working to continue expanding that cap to provide more access to folks? Absolutely. But it is a dramatic evolution from where we were in Virginia, just a year ago.

Michael Pope

Senator, I'm wondering about the future of that cap. Is that something that can be tweaked by a future General Assembly?

Jennifer McClellan

Absolutely. And I think that you will see conversations on that going forward.

Michael Pope

Would you care to elaborate in terms of are you going to introduce something?

Jennifer McClellan

Ah, not sure yet. You know, we're gearing up for a Special Session, and are just beginning to think about the 2022 Session, as you alluded. I thought I would have had a different job. So I'm still in the beginning phases of what I'm going to introduce, specifically, in 2022 and beyond. But I think more broadly, that is definitely a conversation that is happening as we go forward.

Thomas Bowman

Now, the last pillar of the Clean Economy Act is reducing carbon emissions. So that is a very broad and expansive goal. Senator, how does the Clean Economy Act force us to reduce carbon emissions?

Jennifer McClellan

Well, you know, it's as simple as when you are transitioning, you know, right now, I think about, and I'm going on memory, about 60% of the electricity generated in Virginia is from fossil fuel based sources that, you know, coal or gas that emit carbon into the air. And so going from that 60% to 0%, and replacing that with solar and wind, that emit zero carbon emissions, is pretty self-explanatory just by having that renewable energy mandate is the first step. But the second step goes back to something I alluded to earlier of when you are looking at what is the least cost way to generate electricity, part of that is not just looking at the facility that is in place, or the facility that's being built, but what is the broader impact that that has on society. And we've sort of, through the Clean Economy Act, used market incentives to ensure there going to be no more carbon emissions in the air. And again, this is part of a larger puzzle. So when you combine that, with joining the Regional Greenhouse Gas initiative, which was the first step to put us to 100% carbon free power, the two work very well together to ensure that we're not only reducing carbon emissions, but eventually we're eliminating them here in Virginia electricity generation.

Harry Godfrey

The easiest way, I think, for your listeners to think about this is that there are two glide paths in the Clean Economy Act. There's a glide path we talked about, which steadily ramps up the amount of clean generation we're using to power our grid, and we're requiring the utilities to go out and acquire. At the same time as we're ramping that up, we are then ramping down the emissions that any individual power plant, in the state of Virginia, can actually emit. As well as having, and this is a belt and suspenders approach, as well as having specific retirement dates for a set of emitting power plants. And by emitting power plants, I mean, coal, oil, natural gas, so we're setting those offline and the ones that remain online, how to get cleaner and cleaner over time, or they've got to shut down and by 2045, we've gotten to a system where we really have 100% clean power in that regard. But it's both of those glide paths working in tandem, moving in the opposite directions, in order to achieve that.

Thomas Bowman

Now what role does carbon reduction and carbon offsets play in the Clean Economy Act? Can we expect to see companies like planting more trees, for example?

Harry Godfrey

Right now, those emission reductions are specifically based upon looking at emissions at that point of emission. You know, how many tons of co2 does this power plant put out this year, you have to go about emitting less than that. The Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, which the Senator alluded to before, parallel initiative that basically looks at the entirety of Virginia's power emissions and steadily shrinks those, would allow, you know, those plants to go about trading between each other, in order to go about achieving those reductions. But in this particular case, and we're talking about the Clean Economy Act, this is saying every single year, we need to see those emissions go down, year, over year, over year. So to answer your question, no, the idea of saying, "We're gonna leave this power plant running, but we're gonna find an offset over here." That's not something that's envisioned in the Clean Economy Act.

Michael Pope

There's another interesting part of the Clean Economy Act, which surprised a lot of people, which is that all this social equity that's built into the bill, which people don't naturally associate with energy policy, Senator, talk about the social equity piece of this. I know, if you talk about like the net metering, where you can make money on the solar panel that's on your roof, there's part of that that's set aside for low income households. And there's another part of this, where there's a fee that's in your energy bill, and that money goes to subsidize low income people so that they don't pay more than 6% of their income on energy. Explain the social equity part of the Virginia Clean Economy Act.

Jennifer McClellan

Yeah, so it recognizes the intersectionality of many different issues and many different policy levers going all at the same time. And we wanted to ensure that when we are expanding access to renewable energy, and clean energy, that transition doesn't overburden one part of Virginia, or one community, or one income bracket over another. And so we sort of built the concept of environmental justice in by first requiring a review that we're going to actually annually look at the implementation, and make sure that there's not one community that shouldering a disproportionate burden of this shift, because we know now there are certain communities that are disproportionately bearing the burden of fossil fuel based generation. We also want to make sure that we aren't contributing to the increase in electric bills, and that that was one component to do that. We want to make sure that as fossil fuel based plants are closing, that we are prioritizing local labor in the new industries. And so it's really this broader concept of environmental justice and social equity across the industry to say, "We recognize that electricity generation impacts communities broadly." And when you are doing as massive a policy shift as the Clean Economy Act is doing, you've got to recognize the sort of second and third effects of what that policy change is going to be, and account for them. So I think that's sort of the idea is, is making sure we are doing this in a way that doesn't disproportionately negatively impact one community, or one socio-economic demographic over another.

Thomas Bowman

Okay, we're running a little long, and it's about time to land this plane. So Harry, and then Senator McClellan, any final thoughts that you want the person listening to this podcast to know?

Jennifer McClellan

So it's funny that you say that, because when we pass the Clean Economy Act, I literally want to jump out of my chair and shout, "The Eagle has landed," because this bill is going to be as transformative in Virginia, as the moon- landing on the moon was in 1969, for all of the reasons we've already talked about. It is, and I want people to, especially those who say this doesn't go far enough, to recognize how quickly- there were a lot of people who thought this bill was never going to pass and it died like three or four times along in the process. It is it is a massive shift that takes Virginia from the bottom of the pack of the 50 states as far as a clean energy policy, to one of the top 12 in the country, and number one in the South. And we are now a model for not only the rest of the states, but for the country. And we have heard energy advocate, Advanced Energy advocates and environmental advocates now saying to the federal government, "Hey, look at what Virginia did and this can be a model for federal policy." And so I think this is something we all should be incredibly proud of. And we've already started to see, you know, even though in the past year many industries have been hurt by COVID, the solar industry is growing, and the Clean Economy Act is going to be part of the engine that helps us rebuild our economy coming out of COVID. And I think I'm incredibly proud to have been a part of it.

Harry Godfrey

Michael, to build on everything that the Senator said, I want to take it back to the question you asked at the outset of this, which is what does 2050 look like with the Clean Economy Act in place, and having sort of fully been implemented. And and there's some really fundamental notes of optimism that I want to strike in that regard. First, in 2050, thanks to the Clean Economy Act, energy costs less for your average Virginia family, because we're using it more efficiently, because we're using least cost resources that have have only come down further in price over time. And we're because we're using resources more effectively, we're more fully utilizing our grid. We're less reliant on imported resources. And so not only are we thinking about my am I talking about the resources that we're using to heat and cool our homes to run our businesses. But likewise, our transportation system is reliant as- an utilizing as well, this diversified clean and affordable grid so that we don't have to worry about things like the Colonial Pipeline hack, for instance, with an electrified transportation system that's built upon the foundation created by the Clean Economy Act. It's cleaner air, as the Senator talked about, you know, it looks better outside. But there's also lower incidences of all the sort of respiratory diseases that come with the sort of emissions. And there's jobs. There's lots of great middle class jobs throughout our economy, built around and upon clean energy, whether it's manufacturing offshore wind turbines that travel up and down the East Coast, in our ports, whether it is energy efficiency jobs spread throughout the Commonwealth, whether it's solar that is helping to support rural communities throughout Southern and Southwestern Virginia. Whether it's wind along our ridge lines as well, that is likewise helping to support those communities and creating good family sustaining jobs. I think is a cleaner, more prosperous, and more affordable future for Virginia. That's what we see in 2050 thanks to the Clean Economy Act.

Thomas Bowman

Harry, you mentioned something really important that we didn't get a chance to touch on this episode. But this is also a national security issue. You mentioned Colonial Pipeline. And the best way to prevent hacks, to prevent the grid being taken offline, is to promote distributed energy generation.

Harry Godfrey

Yes.

Thomas Bowman

And so a lot of traditional investor owned utility companies under the old model, were afraid of that because of the rate payer flow being interrupted. However, this new legislation creates an avenue for them to be partners, rather than adversaries. And I think that's a really buried lead on what you're doing here. And, Senator, one final thought that I've got before we go, are you planning to run for Governor again?

Jennifer McClellan

Stay tuned.

Thomas Bowman

Stay tuned. That's a good answer.

Jennifer McClellan

I'm running for reelection in 2023. And stay tuned after that.

Michael Pope

Stay tuned. You heard it here first, folks.