This week, Thomas and Michael are joined by Tarina Keene and Lexi White, the executive director and policy director of REPRO Rising Virginia, a pro-abortion organization fighting to protect reproductive rights in the state. They discuss their efforts to fight Republican attempts restrict abortion and contraceptives, as well as policy goals going into next month's General Assembly session.

Episode Transcript

Michael Pope 

On this episode of Pod Virginia.

Thomas Bowman 

Abortion in the Commonwealth.

Michael Pope 

The Governor wants a 15-week ban.

Thomas Bowman 

But advocates for abortion rights are fighting back.

Michael Pope 

What can we expect from the next General Assembly session?

Thomas Bowman 

You're listening to Pod Virginia; stick around.

Michael Pope 

I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman 

I'm Thomas Bowman.

Michael Pope 

And this is Pod Virginia, a podcast that's taking a look at reproductive freedom today.

Thomas Bowman 

We're joined by the executive director of Repro Rising, Tarina Keene.

Tarina Keene 

Nice to be with you all today.

Michael Pope 

We are also joined by the policy director for repro rising, Lexie White thanks for joining us.

Lexi White 

Thanks for having me.

Michael Pope 

All right. So we want to talk about the Governor's 15-week ban. We want to talk about the constitutional amendment that you guys are seeking. Delegate Marie March has a bill, so we're gonna get into all of that. But just it's sort of a general overview here of the upcoming general assembly session. What can we expect?

Lexi White 

So as you all know, since the SCOTUS decision to undo Roe v. Wade in Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health Organization, the landscape for reproductive health rights and justice in many states, including Virginia, is precarious at best. I'd say, at worst, fertile ground for heightened legislative attacks, including criminalization tactics that seek to push care out of reach, where it is already can be difficult to access and ultimately threaten to punish patients providers and those who are doing the hard work of offering logistical support to access and critical care on the ground. So we are in a moment where we're both witnessing an unprecedented attack on our bodily autonomy while still being inspired and ready for action, having seen some historical wins coming out of the midterm elections that tell us that when we put abortion on the ballot and let the voters decide, abortion access is a winning issue. But we have a lot ahead of us this upcoming legislative session. And we are fully anticipating what the Younkin administration has promised a 15-week ban. We've actually already seen a personhood life at conception bill introduced ahead of the session. And so we are gearing up for this fight and working on getting all hands on deck to make sure that Virginia remains a safe haven for abortion access.

Thomas Bowman 

Thanks, Lexi. Tarina up, a lot of people, including Governor Glenn Youngkin, believe that a 15-week abortion ban or another time interval is reasonable. So what would you say to the Governor or anyone else who thinks that a 15-week abortion ban is a reasonable compromise and restriction?

Tarina Keene 

There is no reasonable compromise. When we're talking about stripping, people have their rights, their fundamental human rights to decide their own destinies about deciding when if how, and with whom to start or grow their families. This is something that Virginians and Americans at large really, really want to have control over when it comes to their reproductive destiny. And we also know that 77% of Virginia voters, so we just talked to them. Right after the Dobbs draft, the first draft, the leaked draft dropped back in May. And they told us, no matter where they were on the political spectrum, that they did not agree with the overturning of Roe and they did not want politicians interfering in their personal private health care decisions. So to say that there was a compromise here. Not only is that dangerous to people's lives and their health, but it's just something that Virginians overwhelmingly will reject.

Michael Pope 

So I'm curious about this constitutional amendment you guys are talking about; the idea here is that a constitutional amendment could guarantee the right to an abortion. Explain the amendment you guys are hoping to get and do this have any chance of getting out of a Republican-controlled House.

Lexi White 

So we want everyone to know that currently, reproductive rights are not permanently protected in Virginia. Although abortion does remain legal, a constitutional amendment would allow us to enshrine the right to reproductive freedom in the Commonwealth constitution and make Virginia a permanent safe haven for abortion access. It's something that we know we can do. We need a constitutional amendment that guarantees our access to abortion care, regardless of who's in power, so that politicians are not playing politics with the art are these fundamental rights. We saw in the midterm election again in places like California, Vermont, Kansas, Kentucky, and Michigan, that when we put it to the voters and let the voters decide, it's something that our community support. So our constitutional amendment would guarantee that the state cannot deny or interfere with an individual's reproductive freedom in their most personal decisions, including their right to choose an abortion. And while we know we have our work cut out for us heading into the legislative session, we know that we have the power to flip the house. We see this as a multi-year strategy and a critical solution to aid in protecting the reproductive freedom of Virginians.

Thomas Bowman 

Alright, this is kind of a question for either one of you. As Michael brought up a moment ago, Delegate Marie March has already introduced a personhood bill. And that grants full rights at the moment of conception, and that would also ban most forms of birth control. So what do you make of this bill? And how do you expect that debate to play out this session and the General Assembly?

Tarina Keene 

Well, this is a bill that is straight out of Bob Marshall's playbook. For those of you, who have been around for a while, it didn't play very well with him or for him when he introduced it multiple times over the last decade or so before he lost his seat. This is a really extreme bill. It undermines the ability of pregnant people and families to make that personal, private decision. But it is so extreme; not only is it a total abortion ban, just to be very clear, but it also impacts the FDA-approved methods of birth control, including the birth control pill, which is a very popular conscious emergency contraception, such as Plan B, and also IUD. So these are some of the most used forms of contraception and also, some of the, you know, the ones that people really don't want to see banned because they are some of the most effective, but it also goes after IVF. So even if the bill does say it doesn't do one thing, it literally describes the conception, the moment that you have a fertilized egg, as the as when life begins. So that has some really far-reaching and probably unforeseen consequences when you put that enshrine that into law.

Michael Pope 

I'd love to follow up on the unforeseen consequences. I'm curious about granting full rights at the moment of conception. I mean, that's the implications there are clear for abortion. But I'm curious about, I mean, the arguments that could be made in terms of the unforeseen consequences of just like in terms of making this argument to lawmakers, what are the unforeseen consequences of granting full rights at the moment of conception?

Tarina Keene 

I mean, there was an interesting situation that happened in Texas because they now do have a person basically a personhood law in Texas, and someone challenged it by driving a pregnant person driving in the HOV lanes. So you have those situations that can maybe seem a little funny, but you also have real-world things like if you have, say you do have, you're someone who uses using IVF to become pregnant, would those fertilized eggs that you have frozen? Would those be considered, you know, people and children, and they have, you know, implications from never, you know, being destroyed, generally over time? IVF, you know, any of those unused fertilized eggs are generally destroyed. Or, you know, you have tax implications for multiple so-called children who are frozen in a refrigerator somewhere. So, it's, it's interesting to think about all the ways you could come up with when you, um, When you think about, you know, life begins at conception. Even though you can come up with those interesting and somewhat, you know, somewhat absurd ideas, you can also think about the implications that that could have for people who can become pregnant and the people who care for them. Have you known how that could have really far-reaching legal and healthcare, and life implications for them?

Michael Pope 

Just out of curiosity, what happened with that HOV lane and the pregnant person driving in the HOV lane?

Tarina Keene 

That is a good question. I'm not exactly sure what happened. But it did get a lot of attention at one point, and I think that some other folks were trying to use that same strategy when you're thinking about people who get on an elevator; how many people can get on an elevator? Or how many people can be in the same room at the same time, like the healthcare and fire codes? I mean, you can go on and on and on. If you really think about it.

Thomas Bowman 

Yeah, I want to drill down real quick and follow up a little bit more at the risk of digressing on IVF being in the crosshairs of this specific bill because a lot of people have actually had abortions, but I think it would behoove people like me, who might be listening to really hear this that like abortion isn't birth control, right. So it's health care that is crucial for people who actually want to have a family. When it comes to IVF, yeah, you get maybe like five embryos that get fertilized, say, one takes, you get to have a baby. And if you destroy the rest of those embryos, that counts as an abortion, right? But there's also another area where like, when you implant that baby, if you implant that fetus, or that embryo at that stage, or the blast at that stage at five days, sometimes it doesn't work. And now you're putting the person who needs to have an abortion to remove either a dead fetus or an unviable pregnancy that could destroy their reproductive system in the future. Or an ectopic pregnancy, God forbid, which is terrifying. And this isn't a quick process, right? So like, you're talking about, like, multiple attempts sometimes. And like weeks of carrying around an enviable pregnancy, this is gonna be the worst era in a couple's life. And now, this is like something that was intended or unintended. It's going to make it even harder for people to have kids that actually want to have a family. Right?

Lexi White 

I say it's certainly a stunning display of ignorance regarding contraception and pregnancy, regarding the understanding of a full range of like naturally occurring pregnancy outcomes that can occur for folks who embark on a journey of extending their families of carrying a pregnancy to full term. And the problem is that it's, you know, it's extremism here, in banning abortion at every stage in and some forms of contraception, including IUDs, which I specify, it really interferes with folks with care decision making more broadly. And this is why we're always in the business of advocating that we need access to the full range of reproductive health care options without interference because there are so many nuances that are at play when folks are making the decisions that are best for themselves and their families. And access to IUDs. I want to focus back in on and other contraceptive methods that are also critical for many health reasons, including but not limited to preventing pregnancy, but also doing things like controlling fertility, regulating hormones, treating reproductive health care conditions, some of which can be very chronic and painful and debilitating for folks. So banning safe and effective forms of contraception intervening with folk's ability to pursue IVF. And certainly, all abortion bans are harmful to folks who really do need access to a full range of care.

Tarina Keene 

Overall, this goes way beyond the right to abortion. And what this really drills down to is, you know, this is about who has power over you and who has authority to make decisions for you, and who is going to control your life. And we certainly shouldn't be politicians. This should be something that, you know, people definitely want to make sure that they have this ability to make decisions that are best for themselves on them and their families. And we also know that medical providers need all the tools in their toolbox to be able to offer the best form of care, no matter you know what is happening with that pregnancy, no matter what stage they are in, you're making sure that people are able to make the best decisions and get the best care that they can possibly get for that pregnancy,

Michael Pope 

Well, Republicans are also talking about something that they call the born alive bill, which you guys that report rising, you call the family interference bill. What does this do? And what should lawmakers do about fetal anomalies?

Tarina Keene 

Well, we call it political interference and family medical decisions. And it's just. This is a bill that really goes after doctors. Doctors already have the responsibility to provide appropriate medical care. And Any suggestion otherwise is offensive and dishonest. So we just want to make sure that families always, no matter what is happening with their pregnancy, can make the best decisions for themselves, in consultation with their medical provider, and that that medical provider can also either offer up the best advice and provide the best medical care, you know, just depending on what is happening within that pregnancy. So parents facing really tragic situations often want to spend a very limited time that they have with an infant that may not be viable for comforting them, and politicians should not force medical intervention when families are trying to peacefully say goodbye to a child who will simply not survive. So this bill, we consider it outrageous. And it's obviously something that duplicates existing law and medical ethics. And it should not be it shouldn't be brought up. It's a very it's politicizing, really tragic situation when it comes to fetal anomalies and other types of medical or pregnancy tragedies.

Thomas Bowman 

Alright, so in the past, we've talked about something called trap laws where the targeted regulations on abortion providers, so what's the status of those laws right now that required hospital construction standards for abortion clinics? Are those laws still around? Are we worried they're gonna come back? What's going on?

Tarina Keene 

Well, thankfully, in Virginia, they are not around anymore. We were able to repeal the trapping law that was on the books in 2020 as part of the Reproductive Health Protection Act, but we did fight for nine long years to mitigate the worst regulations and restrictions that that law imposed upon our providers. And the thing is, is that abortion providers are just like your regular doctor's offices. But what they were doing was singling them out in an attempt to make the restrictions on the regulation so onerous that it would force them to close their doors. We did have a handful of providers that unfortunately did close their doors during that time, but the vast majority were able to remain open. And thankfully, we were again able to repeal the law, which then lifted those regulations that were promulgated by the Board of Health back in 2020.

Michael Pope 

So I'm curious about medication abortions because Virginia is a state that, you know, has relatively expensive abortion rights. There will be people from all over the country that will be coming to Virginia. And I'm wondering about the pills that are involved in medication and abortions. They can be prescribed by doctors or also nurse practitioners. This is a pretty recent change to the law. Can we expect to see people opposed to abortion rights try to pull this back and not allow nurse practitioners to prescribe these pills? What can we expect from that debate in terms of medication abortions on the horizon?

Lexi White 

I would add to this that I certainly want to be clear that we fully support folk's ability to self-manage their care, as well as to have access to medication abortion. But I think it's also important to note that, that any efforts to take away or restrict folk's ability to access medication and abortion fall in line with a host of other tactics that folks would try to push abortion care out of reach. It's critical that we continue to highlight that even though abortion is still legal, and it is legal to access medication, abortion, there are a number of barriers that still exist, right? There are parental consent laws that make it difficult for young people who may not have a supportive legal guardian to get the care that they need. There are a number of counties across the state that do not have close access to an abortion clinic. There are insurance coverage bands that make it difficult to access and pay for abortion care. The list goes on and on. And I would add that we are seeing an influx of patients coming in from our border states. You know, folks who need to access critical care. And so that is why it's critical that we keep Virginia a safe haven for a full range of care. And certainly, that includes access to medication, abortion, and the human right to self-manage your care.

Thomas Bowman 

Real quick, I want to touch on the cost to families for this health care. So when the Affordable Care Act is being debated in