Michael Pope

Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the ongoing transition of power in Virginia. I'm Michael Pope.

Thomas Bowman

And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, we're diving into Critical Race Theory. What is it, and why do Republicans keep talking about it? We've got an amazing panel to dig into this issue.

Michael Pope

We're joined by a professor at the Department of Political Science at Virginia Commonwealth University, someone who actually conducts research on Black women's state legislatures and leadership with an emphasis on intersectionality. Jatia Wrighten, thanks for joining us.

Jatia Wrighten

Hi, thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Thomas Bowman

We're also joined by the former head of the Fairfax County NAACP. He is currently a candidate for Lieutenant Governor. Sean Perryman, thanks for joining us.

Sean Perryman

Thanks for having me. I appreciate being here.

Michael Pope

Okay, great. Well, we need to start with the obvious question here, which is what the heck is Critical Race Theory? Professor Wrighten, give us a quick history lesson. When was this term originally created and what does it mean now?

Jatia Wrighten

Sure. So Critical Race Theory actually emerged out of a framework for legal analysis in the late 1970s and early 1980s. So in terms of a theory, it's more than 40 years old. The scholars who are credited with this theory are Derrick Bell, Kimberly Crenshaw, and Richard Delgado, among others. And what it really recognizes, and why it was so groundbreaking, is it's this idea that racism is a social construct. And what that means is that there are institutions and systemic racism at play, and really all of our everyday activities and our institutions. And some good examples about that would be something like, in the 1930s, government officials drew lines around areas deemed, "poor financial risk," they were often explicitly due to the racial composition of inhabitants. And so it's easy to sort of suggest like, "Well, of course, these are financial risks, because these areas or these neighborhoods, they don't have as high land value, there's high areas of crime in this area." And so sort of just looking at on face value, it's easy to suggest like that there's no sort of racism here, right? It's just that these are poor financial risks because of the the land property and the value. Well, if you take a closer look, you see that there was predominantly Black inhabitants in this area. And so you still see some of these same patterns of discrimination through these, what seemed to be, race blind policies, right? And so what the scholars sort of intended was that when you are studying race and racism, that you're looking at it as a system, and not just sort of these individual, separate instances, right? And that's really key to Critical Race Theory. It forces scholars, and it forces academics, to take a deeper look of the systemic nature of race and racism, and how those actions and policies affect outcomes that we see today. You know, with Black families making less than white families, the wage gap that exists for Black families in comparison to white families, the education gap, you know, all of these things have a deep rooted history in systemic racism that has existed, really since, you know, 1619, since the beginning of the country in terms of its interaction or relationship to Africans and enslaved Africans. The way that it has changed more recently in the way that it's discussed in news media is really a huge disconnect. Right? This is not Critical Race Theory being discussed by Republicans and being forwarded as sort of this, you know, "We don't want this to be taught, you know, in K 12, schools," It really doesn't make a lot of sense. And the way that I really understand it, it's being used as a dog whistle, by conservatives and the Republican Party. I think Critical Race Theory sort of acts as an umbrella of fear that conservatives and Republicans have really been able to get behind without actually having to understand what that theory actually entails and what its purpose is. And even, you know, for someone who has a doctorate, you know, I'm still learning the ins and outs of Critical Race Theory. And I and I may not have even done it true justice, as it really is understood as this larger theoretical framework. And so to suggest that K through 12, is implementing it into their lessons, and their their sort of day to day, is sort of ridiculous. And so it's a huge disconnect. And it's false, it's false in the way that it's being portrayed in the media.

Thomas Bowman

So Sean Perryman, this is something that the Republicans, every single one of them, are running on their opposition to. And it does seem like they're hoping that the average listener is going to mistake Critical Race Theory for, "critical of white people theory." And that, apparently, they think, is a big enough threat to get suburban voters and others to vote for Republicans this year. Can you explain how this is being used on the campaign trail in the 2021 election, to what you've witnessed?

Sean Perryman

Sure, and from what I witnessed, and it's both on the trail with average voters, and also, from time to time, I have spoken to conservative radio show hosts and willing to meet people where they are and talk about the issues. And the first question you usually get, and you can kind of spot the Republican by this, it's, "What's your position on Critical Race Theory?" And I remember the first time I got it, I was sort of confused, because I hadn't said anything about Critical Race Theory, didn't really, as the professor says, I think I was familiar with it, but really didn't have anything...much interaction with it. And so, but what I've learned is that they're using kind of Critical Race Theory as shorthand for anything that they don't agree with. It's sort of the boogeyman, it's the same as cancel culture. It's really the shorthand for wokeness. So they're talking about everything from, talking about why, for instance, maybe we should get rid of the monuments to Confederates, to when we talk about diversity in our schools, and gender, that sort of thing. It's not even just limited to race, I think it's really talking about the cultural change and differences, really, that's been focused on inclusion to people who are not, you know, the heteronormative, white norm. Any sort of inclusion, that is really where I see the Critical Race Theory pop up. And I remember I appeared on one conservative radio show, and they said that, you know, they heard that I was pushing Critical Race Theory, because I wanted more diversity in our AP schools, Thomas Jefferson of Virginia. And it had nothing to do with that, it was really about the admission process and that sort of thing. But that too, became about Critical Race Theory. So really, anything that touches on race, in even the most attenuated way, becomes shorthand for Critical Race Theory. So as you said, it's really a dog whistle for any sort of inclusive, sort of diversity, any sort of social issues, the same social wars we saw in the 90s, they are tagging it you know, Critical Race Theory or cancel culture. And it's very hard to get past that. And usually, I just circumvent it entirely, because I'm not talking about Critical Race Theory. I think as Democrats, we need to really focus on look, we're talking about better wages, broadband access, a fair criminal justice system. The Republicans are the ones talking about academic theories and cancel culture, none of which will pay your bills, or make you any better off at the end of the day. So it's something that will definitely come up in the general election. But it is sort of this amorphous term for them that just means anything that they don't agree with.

Michael Pope

So one part of Virginia where this has really exploded is Loudon County, where there are parents that want to recall the school board. There's a huge controversy in Loudon County, ostensibly about Critical Race Theory, but as we'll see, it's questionable whether or not Critical Race Theory actually has anything to do with what's going on in Loudoun County. I'm gonna play some sound from the D.C. Fox affiliate on the situation there in Loudon County.

Fox Affiliate

The debate over a controversial theory on racism that some parents say they don't want being taught in their schools. Fox 5's off the show live tonight at Loudon schools headquarters. Fitz, tensions definitely running high in some of these meetings.Yeah, this is called Critical Race Theory. It essentially says that all institutions are inherently racist. Now, this boiled over here in Loudon County when the interim superintendent launched what he calls, "an equity plan," and he says, "It was designed to teach the mostly white staff about their increasingly more racially diverse student body."

Michael Pope

Now, it's important to point out, that the interim superintendent there in Loudon, Scott Ziegler, says, "They're not teaching Critical Race Theory in K-12 schools.

Scott Ziegler

Critical Race Theory is not a curriculum of Loudoun County Public Schools. We have discussions in Loudon County around race, and ethnicity, and equity talk. But Critical Race Theory is not something that we teach, either to our students or to our staff members.

Michael Pope

But parents, there in Loudon, some parents, they're not buying that. I want to play some sound now that sort of went viral after one of the parents got up at the school board meeting, and spoke about this issue. An African American woman named Chantel Cooper.

Chantel Cooper

CRT is not an honest dialogue, it is a tactic that was used by Hitler and the Klu Klux Klan on slaves very many years ago, to dumb down my ancestors. So we could not think for ourselves. CRT is racist, it is abusive, it discriminates against one's color. Let me educate you, an honest dialogue does not oppress. An honest dialogue does not commit hatred or injustice, it's to communicate with deceiving- without deceiving people. Today, we don't need your agreement. We want action and a backbone for what we asked for today to ban CRT.

Michael Pope

Jatia Wrighten, as you walked us through the history of Critical Race Theory, it seems improbable, or even impossible, that Critical Race Theory would have played any role, at all, with Adolf Hitler or the KKK. Why is it you think this woman believes that? And how would you address her points?

Jatia Wrighten

I mean, I think this is a prime case of misinformation. And, you know, the cases that she's mentioning, Critical Race Theory didn't even exist at that point of time in history. And so that doesn't make any sense. The scholars who have presented Critical Race Theory didn't come about until the 1970s and 80s, well, after Hitler and the beginning of the KKK. I think the issue becomes, is that Critical Race Theory is suggesting that we, we look into ourselves to identify maybe, you know, preconceived biases that we hold, that may actually forward racism without even sort of this purpose to do so. And I think people have a really hard time with that. But also, from this woman's explanation, they don't really understand what Critical Race Theory is to begin with. It sounds to me like there's a mixture of things that she's talking about. There was this idea that Blacks couldn't swim, because they were more dense than white people's bodies, and, you know, all these sorts of things that came out of Nazi Germany and what they deemed scientific experiments. And that seems to be sort of a lot of the things that she's quoting and pulling from, but that has nothing to do with Critical Race Theory. The other thing about, "We don't speak honesty or truth, to benefit the oppressed." And I wholly disagree with that. The more information that we have, and the more we are able to examine nuances about race and racism and the relationship to power, the better that our democracy can be if it's more inclusive of all the different types of people who live and vote in this country. Basically, the underlying here is what they're saying is that, "We don't want the idea that, you know, race and racism exists in this country, and that we may all play a part in it, and how do we address that going forward?" They don't want that to be a part of the curriculum, or maybe the way that people think about systems and institutions. And I think that's problematic. If you are, you know, part of the government system, why wouldn't you want to ensure that it's sort of inclusion and benefits all people that you actually govern? And that's really why I do the research that I do, as it relates to Black women, and gaining leadership and state legislators. Because as we see, more diverse leadership and representation, actually benefits more people in our democracy. And so I'm not certain as to where she's coming from with her statement, but I will tell you that that's not Critical Race Theory.

Sean Perryman

Yeah. And just to add on to that, it's interesting because you really cannot address what they're saying because it's such a hodgepodge of different theories and ideas and conspiracy theories at that. But really, what I've seen, and it's, they're using the term CRT or Critical Race Theory, as some form of indoctrination to accepting things that they don't believe to be true. And again, not only just about race, but gender, everything. And so it becomes a shorthand for this Boogeyman that you really can't counter because it's not logical, nor do you know exactly what they're pointing to when they say, "Critical Race Theory." What I worry about is, in Fairfax County, we have 25 schools that have no, no Black teachers at all, in Fairfax County. And I'm sure the same is true for Loudon as well, which is why you have these diverse populations being taught by primarily white educators, they are trying to put in some training on how do you teach to different populations, but it becomes about those groups gaining power and trying to indoctrinate you into something else. And so it's fascinating. What I worry about, though, is the Democratic Party will see this, and then try to completely reverse course on all the conversations we've been having for the last year on equity, on Black Lives Matter, on the policy issues that we've been having. Because the truth is, and this becomes uncomfortable for Democrats too, there are systemic issues, both in the Democratic Party, in Virginia, that are racially based, and that keep out diverse candidates, that set us on a policy agenda that does not serve everyone. And so if we get caught up in this, they're saying Critical Race Theory, and we must change our tactics and our policies that we're pursuing, that is detrimental to our primary base of voters, one. Two, no matter what we do, they're going to say, "Critical Race Theory," because it doesn't mean anything. Whatever you do, they will say, "Oh, that's Critical Race Theory." It doesn't have any set meaning, it's just essentially the opposition, it's, "This thing that I don't like, the sort of social change that I'm uncomfortable with."

Thomas Bowman

Sean, you've been traveling the entire state or Commonwealth, I should say. And I'm wondering, does this issue play differently, depending on the region you're in? We heard how it's going in Loudon County. Are you picking up on any nuances between Fairfax and Norfolk?

Sean Perryman

You know, that's an interesting question. I think, because at the Primary stage, we're obviously speaking to Democratic Primary voters, for the most part, this doesn't come up as much on the trail. But what I do see when I talk to rural areas, is they they are already looking ahead to the general election. And they're worried about how certain messaging will play in the general election. So I do see rural voters very much acutely aware that, especially if they're blue in a very red district, that this is something that's being said all the time. And how do we adjust? How do we, once we turn and pivot towards the general election, how do we message? And then my response usually to that is, "You're going to have to understand there, there are people, whether they believe the election was stolen, or their Critical Race Theory, is like the one we heard on that recording, you're probably not going to be able to reach that person. You have to focus on turnout, to some extent, to Democratic primary voters. But there is a class of voter who really does believe in bread and butter issues, that you will be able to reach." And so we can focus on that and really make sure we're targeted and laser focused on our message of what are we trying to deliver to you as constituents? But to try to come up with a strategy of how to win over someone who believes that you are pushing an agenda that is comparable to Nazi Germany, there's not enough messaging or money in the world to probably convince them of that by a November election. That is the context of how I hear this discussion.

Thomas Bowman

All right, well, we need to take a quick break. We're speaking with Sean Perryman, former Executive Director of the Fairfax County NAACP and candidate for Lieutenant Governor and Dr. Jatia Wrighten at VCU.

Michael Pope

And we're back on Transition Virginia, we're talking about Critical Race Theory and how Republican candidates have seized on this issue in this election cycle. And perhaps, you know, we should acknowledge that Republican voters often live in an alternative media universe, one that's driven largely by Fox News. Now listeners to this podcast might not watch a lot of Fox. So let me play for you some sound from Fox anchor, Maria Bartiromo.

Fox News

It's actually extraordinary. A friend of mine sent me a memo from her son's ninth and 10th grade class, where the teacher said, "If you identify as white, come to a meeting so that we could make sure that you can strive not to be a racist." I mean, it's absolutely extraordinary and outrageous that these teachers are assuming our kids are racist, racist, even before they murmur a word. And then there's another report saying we shouldn't call people mom and dad, because it makes other people feel uncomfortable. Wait, what, where's this coming from?

Michael Pope

Where is this coming from, indeed. So you know, Jatia Wrighten, earlier, you made a point, and it's sailing at one, which is Critical Race Theory is kind of a higher level, legal analysis. It's not being taught in K through 12 schools. But I'll tell you, what is being discussed in K-12 schools is equity. I think, if people really want to understand, if they want to listen to Republicans and understand what they're really saying, what I'm hearing them say is an uncomfortableness with this new language around equity. Would you say that's a fair read on what's happening here?

Jatia Wrighten

Yeah, absolutely. And actually, the newscasters last comment is exactly why we need more education as it relates to understanding Critical Race Theory, where she says, "They are telling these kids, they're racist before they even utter a word." So her understanding of what it means to be a racist, or racism, is that it's something verbal, or that is spoken. And Critical Race Theory is telling you that this is, you know, this is not the case, it's actually built in, it's systemic. And so she actually highlights a reason as to why this sort of theory is important. But it's absolutely, you know, not being implemented at this K through 12 level. It's, you're right, it's being connected and identified with things like anti racism, or social justice, or equity training. And that's actually quite different than Critical Race Theory. And so the pushback seems to be right away, when you say something like, "We need equity and diversity training," People are like, "I'm not racist, it's not me, why do I have to sit through this training?" And that's really the pushback. Right? It's, it's suggesting that, in some ways, you have fallen short, or that you may be racist. And so that's why you don't have to sit through it, or you don't want your children to be exposed to this. And also, you know, yeah, I don't know why there's this connection being made. It's not the same thing. And it's super frustrating to sort of watch and to listen, especially knowing, you know, the the years of work behind Critical Race Theory, and how important it is, to the academic work that not only I do, but you know, scholars who study race, and racism, and power, to sort of, you know, boil it down to this, this idea that it's just sort of this like...

Sean Perryman

I hear your frustration. We assume- you're assuming the person is acting in good faith. And I think the voters, they're being misled, and I think Fox News, Republican Party, the candidates, this is not a good faith effort to talk about academic discipline or theory. This is very much meant to rile up their base, almost asserting, this is reverse racism.

Jatia Wrighten

Right. Right.

Sean Perryman

And it's, it's the furthest thing from the truth. So if again, as the party, or candidates, get too wrapped up, in, "I am going to combat this and teach you what Critical Race Theory actually is," We've lost because they don't care. They do not care. It will, it will, it is no way to combat this sort of false talking point. The only thing that you can do is have a clear message of what we stand for, speak to our voters, and get out our voters. But it is a frustrating thing. And I hear your frustration.

Jatia Wrighten

Because I think too, from an academic standpoint, I think, you know, of course in the past, we've seen the Republican Party and conservatives really paint institutions of higher education as these liberal, indoctrination, you know, systems, when in reality, you know, anytime you talk about race and racism, it's automatically flagged as a liberal, left wing, progressive endeavor. And and that's problematic in itself, right? Race and racism is not partisan. It is wholly built into our system, with the Constitution, and that, I also think, is just the frustrating aspect of Critical Race Theory, when all of this work is really being single handedly demoted to this like partisan issue.

Sean Perryman

That will be the the true test, is how the Democratic Party responds to this. Whether they reverse course, because of this false talking point, or whether they continue to pursue policies that have equity at the center of them. And I'm not sure if, honestly, the Party is up to the test. But there is this very much, and especially on the our different social social media spaces, and the algorithms are responsible for this. But there is this very much Republican bad, Democrat good. Democrat not racist, Republican racist, sort of dichotomy that is false.

Jatia Wrighten

That's very, that's very false.

Sean Perryman

And as a Black candidate, and a former NAACP President, I've pointed to, "This is false. This is not true." And I think people think that it's an attack, but it's something that we really need to grapple with. But unfortunately, I don't know if we have the courage to.

Jatia Wrighten

Right, and we divert our attention into, you know, these minor things that are occurring, something like this, and Democrats have not been known to really do, you know, to pivot well, to be honest. And they allow the Republican Party to sort of lead the conversation. And just the way that I'm having a difficult time in responding to these claims about Critical Race Theory is because it's really nonsensical, right. And so, for Democratic candidates to waste their time to address this, is really problematic, because it is nonsensical, and they should say it as such, and then move on, because it's not Critical Race Theory. What they're discussing, and what they're saying, that's not what this is. It's something completely different. And they can maybe make a name to it, or, you know, call it what they will. But this is nonsensical, it doesn't make sense, it does not reflect Critical Race Theory, or the work that these scholars have done with Critical Race Theory. And so I think that's what's frustrating to watch and to see, as an academic, knowing how much work goes into building a theory that has been so important, in examining, and really addressing systemic racism. To see it watered down in this way, it is it is frustrating, and then to just sort of turn it into this sort of partisan conversation. And I, in a lot of ways, I feel like, you know, these sorts of theories should be exempt from this. And I know they're not, you know, obviously. And I think that's also what's what's, what's frustrating, too. So, you know, in the future, when we mention Critical Race Theory, is this, you know, is this what we're gonna have to first contend with, before I then justify or talk about the sort of research that I'm doing, you know? And I think that's also disappointing to sort of having to walk back and sort of re evaluate or re address, you know, a theory that has already been proven to be valid and important, and moving forward. And I think that's also something that we haven't thought about, as we, you know, as we speak about it in this moment. But it's something that, you know, scholars are definitely gonna have to address moving forward.

Thomas Bowman

You know, what I find interesting is that we are in a state, that's really only one, maybe two, generations removed from Massive Resistance. And we actually did an episode with the Commonwealth Institute, that on their report showing that school segregation is actually greater today than it was in the era of Massive Resistance. And because we're only one, maybe two generations, beyond it, at least as far as being an explicit goal of our education system, much of that propaganda, that white supremacist propaganda, that was instilled in, like history curriculums, for example, is still being taught in schools today. So it's incredibly disingenuous for Republicans to allege that something like Critical Race Theory, which is seeking to peel away the layers of propaganda, is in and of itself propaganda, when really it's just bursting their bubble.

Jatia Wrighten

Yeah, absolutely. Scholars who study Critical Race Theory and the way that it relates to education is actually through policy, right? And so the the school board and the way that they're talking about it, is sort of suggesting like this this day to day, you know, teachers are going to be, you know, telling students, "You're racist, and this is how you should behave. And this is how we address this." But in reality, the scholars who do Critical Race Theory have talked about racially segregated schools, the underfunding of majority of Black and Latino school districts, disproportionate disciplining of Black students, barriers to gifted programs, and selective admission high schools, and different curricula that reinforce racist ideas. And so you're really talking, you know, from the top down, when you're talking about how does Critical Race Theory actually address or effect K through 12 education? That's how you really should be thinking about it, in terms of policy, which is we know that you know, the intersection between law, and policy, and race, is really how we understand Critical Race Theory. It does deal with more of these wider issues that do affect K through 12 education, which are things like you mentioned with the segregation of schools, and that we still continue to see deeply segregated areas of the school system. I live in Henrico County and we definitely know there's deep segregation between the East End and the West End. There's difference in resources and there's difference in who lives in the East End, and who lives in the West End. And that's in 2021. Right? And so that's what Critical Race Theory is trying to suggest, like, why do we see this continuing? What happens because of this? What are the outcomes? That's what Critical Race Theory looks like when it's applied to K through 12. Not whatever the Republican Party is suggesting at this moment it is applying to.

Michael Pope

So we've talked about kind of the formal definition of Critical Race Theory. We've also talked about how Republicans use it on the campaign trail. And clearly there's a delta between those two things. However, you know, as we head into the fall campaign season, the candidates are going to be talking about this issue. Here's Republican candidate for Governor, Glenn Youngkin, talking about his education policy. And of course, he has a few lines in there about this issue.

Glenn Youngkin

We're all created in the image of God. And as a result, we're all equal. We're all equal. Anything that teaches division, is not of Him, and therefore we will not have Critical Race Theory in our schools.

Michael Pope

So interesting, that Youngkin is framing it there as like a religious issue, almost, Sean Perryman, that you might be anti religious, if you believe in Critical Race Theory. What do you make of that?

Sean Perryman

Wow. It's something, it's something. I mean, it's actually very clever. And I think these Republican slate of candidates are very clever, because what they're essentially doing is they're saying, "We want equality. And so if we acknowledge that people were treated differently at any point in history, if we acknowledge that students, or anyone else is coming to the education system at a disadvantage, or anything else, we are essentially not striving for that equality." So it's a very clever way of going about it, right, that we are all created in God's image, we're all equal. But how can we be equal if we are all going to separate schools? How can we be equal, if ever since Brown v. Board of Ed, Virginia has been recovering from the period of Massive Resistance. Just in the last years here in Fairfax County, which is supposed to be this liberal beacon, we had schools that were named directly after Brown v. Board of Ed after Confederate generals, that we send mostly Black and Brown kids to. So it's almost arguing that if you acknowledge this, that you are somehow pulling us back to this point of being unequal in their way. And so it is a very clever argument. And I think the Democratic Party really has to be careful of this slate of Republicans because they are going to manipulate and they're going to make these arguments that you know, of course, aren't of good faith. But it is something that we have to tackle head on, because there obviously is an indoctrination that's happening through Fox News and conservative media around this narrative.

Thomas Bowman

You know, I was raised Southern Baptist. And so I actually take big offense to Youngkin suggesting that anything that causes division is not from God. You know, we were born into this country, right? We were born into this time in history. And when we were born, the knife was already in the back of Black Americans, right? So like, the wedge is already there. Something like Critical Race Theory is seeking to remove it. And so for Youngkin to allege that trying to remove this wedge is not from God, you know, my Southern Baptist roots, say like, "Well, that's of the devil." Right? That he would say that, and twist, religion and Christianity in a way that I mean, white supremacy is its own religion. It's its own cult. But, you know, the fact that he would try to connect those two things is incredibly distasteful for somebody of a religious upbringing. And, Michael, we've also got Winsome Sears, a Black woman from Jamaica, who has made opposition to Critical Race Theory part of her platform. What is Winsome Sears doing?

Michael Pope

Yep. So Sean Perryman, earlier, you mentioned that Democrats need to really think through how they address this particular slate of Republican candidates. And I think moving into the fall campaign season, there is going to be no candidate we hear about this from more than Winsome Sears. Now you're, of course, running for Lieutenant Governor. If you're successful in getting the Democratic nomination, you would be going head to head against Winsome Sears, so I would love to get, I'm going to play some sound here I've got from Winsome Sears, and I'd love to get your response to it. So she was appearing on Fox News. And they had just done a segment about Critical Race Theory before they had her on. So she's talking about her campaign for Lieutenant Governor and her education platform. And of course, she pivots right into Critical Race Theory. This is Winsome Sears on Fox News.

Winsome Sears

We must have parental school choice. I just heard the segment on Critical Race Theory, it's nonsense. And it says that it's a prime official evidence. So on its face, as soon as we see a white person, well, they are racist, clearly, and so is everybody else in their family. It's going to be detrimental to our schools. And it's not what we want. It's supposedly to help someone who looks like me, and I'm sick of it. I'm sick of being used by the Democrats and so are many people who look like me.

Michael Pope

Sean Perryman, are Democrats using people who look like Winsome Sears?

Sean Perryman

No, I don't believe so. But and this is hard for Democrats to understand. That is a narrative that it's very popular in the Black community. I am on the campaign trail every day, and I'm going to Black communities. And to say that Democrats are using the Black community, is a popular thing to say. And it will resonate with a Black audience, because you have to understand that the entire political spectrum, and ideology of Black people, we're not a monolith. But it's all forced into the Democratic Party, because the Republican Party has been so hostile to Black people. So you have very conservative Black people who will vote Democratic because just of the history of the two parties. And there is this feeling that we keep voting for, for Democrats, we are expected to vote for them. We're told that that is in our best interest. And then there's the very popular, "Well, what has that delivered for us? What is the meaningful impact or change of voting Democrat for all these years?" And so what Winsome Sears is saying, while it's not necessarily true, it is a narrative that is very familiar to Black people. And what I worry about, and Republicans are very attuned to, I've talked to Republican delegates, as I'm on the trail, and everything else. They're saying, "Hey, man, we got a guy who's richer than God, running at the top of the ticket. We have a Black woman, and we have a Cuban American refugee, as Attorney General, right, the candidate running as Attorney General." They see this as an opportunity. But I think Winsome Sears, if we have a ticket that has no Black people on it, which some establishment types have been pushing that ticket. That will be her message, that they are talking about Critical Race Theory, they're talking about lip service to, to Black people, but they're not, they're using you to vote for them. But they're not actually delivering anything to you, nor do they want you in leadership. And that is something that there is a historical narrative within the Black community, that that there will be a segment that that resonates with.

Jatia Wrighten

And may I just add for your listeners, if you're interested in why Blacks predominantly or overwhelmingly vote Democratic, there's a really good, readable book called, "Steadfast Democrats," by Cheryl Laird and Ishmael White that just came out more recently. And it talks about the Black community as quite diverse, just as Sean mentioned, in terms of its ideology, but oftentimes, because Republican Party embraces white supremacy, Blacks are often forced to vote for the Democratic Party, as we live in a two party system. So there's a lot of research that suggests like older Black Americans would probably be more conservative as it relates to social policies, but because of the embrace of white supremacy, they often will vote Democrat, even as they disagree with more of the progressive social policies that the Democrats put forth.

Sean Perryman

That's right.

Jatia Wrighten

Yeah, that's, and also I mean, to speak- speaking to Sean's point about, you know, in the Black community, it's not just the Black community, I'm not sure if you guys remember back in, I think it was 2017, that the Black women within Congress pinned that letter to the incoming....He was the new Chair of the DNC, and they spoke to him and wrote a letter about taking Black women for granted in the works that they do in the in the Democratic Party, the leadership that they offer the Democratic Party, and we've seen that Black women literally change the outcomes of elections, not only as voters, but also as the elected representatives. I mean, Stacey Abrams and her nonprofit group in Georgia, we see that that made a difference in the presidential election. Joe Biden would not have won Georgia without Stacey Abrams. And we see the same happening in the state of Virginia. Without Black women, Northam would not have been elected, and yet he backs Terry McAuliffe, right? And so it's the constant work of Black women, not being acknowledged or rewarded with leadership positions in the Party, that will actually allow them to pass substantive policy that advantages the Black community.

Sean Perryman

Professor Wrighten, that's such a great point. And it's being noticed on the ground among the faith community, and everyone else. And I think when people get in their twittersphere, and everything else, they have a very different thing. And I'll even be critical of this show, just, I listen to this show, occasionally. And I hear about you all, and you're talking about, "Well, try to pontificate about what the Black primary voter will do and how they will react to different candidates." But there's three white guys trying to react to what...trying to guess what people will say about three different candidates. 30% of the Democratic primary electorate is going to be Black, and mostly Black women. And so we have to have that understanding, "What are they thinking?" They're not, they may not be on Twitter, they may not be on these things. And we're talking about front runners, and this and that. We're not really going to where they are and saying, "Okay, in the general election, how are these people going to match up? What do our loyal base of voters actually do?" And that's what I- my frustration, I see as a candidate is that there are a lot of think pieces about what rural white voters think, what former Trump supporters think. There's not enough attention payed to the Black women who delivered Democratic victories again and again.

Jatia Wrighten

And time again, absolutely, Sean. That, that and it's it's frustrating to watch as well, when, you know, Winsome Sears, I think what's frustrating, or what should be, you know, highlighted with her is that, there's a difference between descriptive and substantive representation. And right now, the Republican ticket has lots of descriptive representation, meaning that, yes, their candidates may look different in terms of, you know, phenotypically, physically looked different. But substantively, they're not different candidates in terms of the policies that they're proposing, sort of the the stances that they're taking. And, Sean, like you mentioned before, Black people are not a monolith. They're not, you know, all in agreement. But oftentimes, it has worked to our advantage to do so. There's a theory called Linked Fate by Michael Dawson that he, you know, for this in 1994, that basically identified that because of the shared racial discrimination and segregation that Black people experience due to slavery and the history of prejudice in this country, that Linked Fate suggests that what happens to one Black member in the community, happens to all of us. And because of Linked Fate, or the feelings of Linked Fate, the strength of that, oftentimes, you find that Black women who are elected, or nominated from these Black communities, do have a sense of strong sense of Linked Fate, and oftentimes reflect the needs of their communities. And so this makes them oftentimes even more progressive than white women, more popular, and they're actually outpacing and out winning both white women and Black men, as it relates to being elected to state legislatures, and the national level. And so these are these are women who are successful, and competent, and effective as legislators, but are oftentimes overlooked by the the party that benefits from having them within it. And I think too, you see that like with Princess Blanding, who is running as an Independent, and it may be some of that, you know, she didn't feel that there was a place for her in the Democratic Party.

Thomas Bowman

Yeah, that is an incredibly valuable point. Because increased diversity brings increased perspective. And so when we have that, we can get, generally, a better result. And Democrats have been very successful when they empower Black women. And to Sean, your point, what Ralph Northam did, well we noticed it too, you know, as a younger generation, Democrat, you know, we noticed it. So, if we take at face value, though, that Democrats are generally trying to do the right thing. But Sean, to your earlier concerns that they tend to well be like Sand People, and that they scare easily, and sometimes returning greater numbers, what would you like to see Democrats do in response to Republican talking points about Critical Race Theory?

Sean Perryman

That's a great question. I love the Star Wars reference. I think we have to deliver and, you know, part of the reason I'm running for Lieutenant Governor is, you know, I worked in the Party through the Fairfax Democratic Party, and I was just very frustrated because we'd like to call ourselves a big tent party, but what that often means is, you know, we allow anything, and so for instance, what I when I say that I look at the Republican Party, you cannot be a serious Republican if you don't believe in gun rights. If you don't believe that, maybe you have to say something about Critical Race Theory these days, there are certain baseline beliefs here. I think for the most part, the Democratic Party doesn't have those sort of, "This is the line," thing. What do I mean by that? We can look at the State Senate, there are folks who on gun violence prevention, vote the wrong way, on racial justice, I mean, completely out of touch with where we're going, both in Virginia, and as a country as it relates to race. And if you are critical of that, you're often seen as the bad Democrat for doing that. And what I would love to see in response to something like Critical Race Theory is say, that's, the Democratic Party to dig in and say, "That's nonsense. Black voters are so critical and important to our party. And, of course, we should recognize the history of inequities in the country. And here are the policies as Democrats we support," And should not be this sort of back stepping, which I, again, maybe I am a bit cynical, but I see in my mind's eye on the horizon, that there will be some, "Oh, no, no, I didn't really mean that. I meant something else." I think we need to dig in and say, "Look, these policies that we are pursuing for racial justice are important. And we're not going to back down from them." And when we talk about equity, and we talk about the history of racial injustice, and boldly and loudly, what that means, don't back down from that, because what they're ultimately talking about is nonsense. And we're not going to win this election by somehow winning over the people who believe that. We're trying to moderate the tone to somehow win them over. We're going to win the election by turning out our voters, which are Black voters. And so we need to figure out, do we believe in ending qualified immunity? Do we believe in economic justice made and repealing Right to Work. We need to figure out where we actually stand on those issues. And when it comes to crunch time, we have not been able to get through the State Senate. So I just hope that they don't concede or like as you say the sand people run away from that argument or from what we have been saying for the last year as it relates to racial justice.

Jatia Wrighten

And Sean, as a parent with three kids in school, can I just also offer up, instead of trying to ban Critical Race Theory, can we keep the kids alive long enough in these public schools so that they can learn something?

Sean Perryman

Well, there you go.