Why Are Virginia Schools Still Segregated?
Michael Pope
Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the transition of power in Virginia, from Republican to Democrat. My name is Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, we examine segregated schools. No, we're not talking about Massive Resistance, or the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s and 70s. We're discussing how today, in 2020, our schools are increasingly segregated along racial lines. To help us understand what's gone so terribly wrong, we have two academics here to help us walk through their research. First, we're joined by an associate professor for Educational Leadership at Virginia Commonwealth University, Genevieve Siegel-Hawley. Professor Siegel-Hawley, welcome to Transition Virginia.
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
Thanks for having me.
Michael Pope
We're also joined by a research assistant at the Commonwealth Institute for Fiscal Analysis, Kathy Mendes. Thanks for joining us.
Kathy Mendes
Thanks so much for having me.
Michael Pope
Okay, so let's dig right into it. Both of your organizations have done research on this topic of school segregation. And Thomas sort of hinted at this, at the top, is that when people hear of school segregation, they think about the 50s and the 60s, and this is still going on today. Kathy Mendes, I'll start with you. Explain why this is an issue and why even today, in 2020, not only does school segregation exist today, but it's actually increasing.
Kathy Mendes
Yeah, so we found that segregation persists today. By our measures, it's worsened over the last 15 years in Virginia, we found three main findings. The first is that Black and Latinx students are increasingly likely to attend schools that are almost entirely non white. And those schools have fewer resources and course offerings than schools with larger shares of white students. Secondly, Black and Latinx students continue to attend schools with higher levels of student poverty, compared to white students and the overall student body. And that trend has grown over time. And lastly, school segregation has increased over time in many of Virginia's metropolitan statistical areas. So metro areas with the highest levels of Black/white segregation include Roanoke, Richmond, Harrisonburg, and Hampton Roads. And the level of segregation has increased in all of those metro areas, except for Richmond, where it's decreased slightly over the last 15 years.
Thomas Bowman
So what are some of the limitations of public policy and how could Virginia rectify it, then?
Kathy Mendes
Yeah, so there are several key policy choices that we identified in our research. So the first area of policy solutions are local and regional integration policies. It's important to note up front that all of these approaches should prioritize equity and have that as a guiding principle. And we encourage these policies to happen in tandem. So you know, whether that's school rezoning, managed choice systems, regional magnet schools, these can be happening in tandem and to be effective, they should prioritize making schools look like their broader communities, whether that's featuring weighted lotteries, strong public outreach, and free transportation. Another area we identify is looking at diversity as a school quality measure. So if diversity is necessary for quality education, and adequate workforce preparation, it should really be part of measuring school quality, so that can incentivize localities to work towards making their schools look like their broader communities. And the Board of Education has the power to include levels of integration or diversity on school quality report cards, and that can really help flip the script on what a quality school looks like.
Michael Pope
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley, your research at Virginia Commonwealth University also points to this trend here of increasing segregation in schools. And the findings of your study, you pointed out two things I wanted to sort of start with, which is this shift here of students of color now make up most enrollment and public schools. And particularly Black students are no longer concentrated in urban schools. There's like an equal number of Black students in urban schools and in suburban schools. So walk us through sort of the findings of your research at VCU in terms of the modern trends here, and like people, obviously think about segregation, as we talked about from the 50s and 60s, but there's there's actual movement here recently on this issue, right?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
Yeah, you know, I think these reports go well together in terms of content and findings. So the Commonwealth Institute's report carefully walks through the legacy of, the historical legacy, of policy choices from the past and how that connects to school segregation today. And you know, I think with the VCU report, and this is the first in a series, we were really trying to understand the overt and covert policy choices today that helped shape school segregation. We really focused in on boundary lines, school related boundary lines. So these are both the division boundaries, the lines between different school systems, and the attendance boundaries or the lines within a school system that that determine which neighborhoods are assigned to which schools. You know, one of our big findings was that segregation looked different, different forces shaped it, across the Commonwealth. And as part of trying to understand that, we looked at the distribution or the enrollment distribution of students by race in urban, suburban, and rural areas. And we did find central city, independent city boundary lines, structured a great deal of segregation across across rural and metropolitan areas. But we also found, as you noted, that over the last decade or so that Black students are increasingly likely to be enrolled in suburban areas compared to urban areas.
Thomas Bowman
Genevieve, you found that elementary schools are actually way more segregated than middle and high schools. Why is that?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
Elementary school attendance boundaries tend to be geographically more compact, or geographically smaller than the boundaries that determine where kids go to middle or high school. So we did find our, you know, our hypothesis was that elementary school segregation would be higher because the attendance boundaries are smaller, and encircle a smaller group of neighborhoods, which means that any patterns of neighborhood segregation are more closely reflected in school segregation. That is what we found. But interestingly, we also found that we had some suggestive evidence that high school segregation might be related not just to attendance boundaries, but also to versions of school choice, within school systems across Virginia that allows students to opt out of their assigned or zoned school and into a secondary school choice. We need more data on that last point, but that that's another important driver of segregation.
Michael Pope
So Kathy Mendes, one thing that you looked at at the Commonwealth Institute was course offerings, and things like calculus, and chemistry, and physics. Talk a little bit about what your findings were in terms of the different kind, of course offerings we saw at schools across Virginia.
Kathy Mendes
So we looked at challenging course offerings in Virginia, for high schools, and those include advanced placement courses, calculus, chemistry, and physics. So we found that the high schools with 75% or more white students actually offered more challenging courses, than the ones that are majority students of color. And so that applied to advanced placement, calculus and chemistry, with the exception of physics, which is offered at the same rate. So I think that really just points to the issue of school resource equity, right? So schools that are majority white, are offering more challenging courses at a higher rate, then schools that are majority students of color. And so not only are they denied the chance of challenging and engagement coursework, they are denied the sort of secondary benefit, which is preparing them for college or future life experiences, and, at least in the case of advanced placement courses, financial resources. So if you test highly enough on an advanced placement course, you'll be able to opt out of some college courses, which saves you, you know, several thousand dollars in some cases. So that is a really big point for us, right? So schools that are majority of students of color, are simply just not getting equitable resources. So this has real life implications for our students of color in the state.
Thomas Bowman
Kathy, you're blowing my mind here. I went to one of those schools that, in Centerville, Virginia, like 88%, white, 10%, Asian, and the rest was everything else. So you're telling me that the courses offered to me AP, everything else, these aren't even options for advanced learning, like bright students of color in these segregated schools to take?
Kathy Mendes
Oh, well, I would say that schools that are majority white, more often have those opportunities. So it's not that the other schools just don't get them, but they're not presented at the same rate. So there's just like fewer opportunities to even take those courses in some high schools.
Michael Pope
One thing that I've seen in my time as a journalist, looking at elected officials from a federal, state, and local level, is the meanest, nastiest, most vicious, knife you in the back politics, is school board politics. And that is particularly true when a school district is rezoning. In other words, they've got a new elementary school, and they have to draw a new map around their new elementary school, and they got to figure out where they're putting their students. Genevieve Siegel-Hawley, in your report, you looked at school divisions and looked at their policies to see if they specifically talk about integrating their schools as part of the actual policy and rezoning these school districts. And you found most of them don't, in fact, I think only one third of the school districts you looked at actually specifically mentioned desegregation or integration in their policies. Talk a little bit about the different trends you saw with local government. And I was particularly interested in the the model of Suffolk, which sort of requests that schools reflect the demographics across the division. So what did...when you looked at the different school divisions across Virginia, what did they look like?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
Right, so when we look specifically at the board policies, a lot of this is driven by state statutes, and there is an emphasis on efficiency, you should rezone schools with a goal of efficiency in mind to make sure you know, school buildings are utilized effectively. In that state language currently, you know, there's no explicit acknowledgement that there's a relationship between segregation and efficiency or inefficiency. Dual systems of schools, one for Black students and one for white students, is inherently inefficient. And even today our segregated school systems contribute to inefficiencies. As we see a pattern of many high poverty schools that serve majorities of students of color are under capacity, while whiter, more affluent schools, are over capacity. So there is a relationship but it's not often acknowledged in policy. When it is acknowledged, we then explored whether a board having a goal of diversity, as you mentioned the Suffolk example, a goal of having schools reflect the overall Division during the rezoning process, we didn't find a clear relationship between whether or not a school division had that kind of language and the actual levels of segregation in school division. We think that could be the result of a couple of different things. One, while goals are important, clear, and measurable goals are perhaps more important. So if you have a goal of diversity, but it's somewhat vague, you know, increased diversity of all kinds, for example, it can be hard to ascertain whether or not one rezoning option is moving you closer to that goal compared to another. The other thing we found is that there are often numerous and competing goals that guide rezoning processes like efficient building utilization, decreasing transportation times, and school diversity. And because of residential segregation, sometimes those latter two are in conflict. So without a clear signal about what the top one or two priorities should be for a board when they're rezone, it can be easy for that school diversity...when it is a goal and you're right, the majority of times in those divisions that we studied, it was not a goal, it can get lost in the sauce without a clear priority around it.
Thomas Bowman
So to what degree is school segregation still happening on purpose?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
Well, anytime a board has a variety of options around school rezoning in front of it, and they choose the more segregated option, you could build a case that there is intent there, to segregate. The research shows that there are clear impacts of these policy choices and also individual choices that have resulted in more segregation in our contemporary era. And that's what we need to be concerned with.
Kathy Mendes
I would definitely echo what Genevieve just said, and especially looking at the relationship between housing segregation and education, it really becomes hard to pick those apart because they are mutually reinforcing each other. And I think like what you were talking about during sort of school board deliberations, it's interesting, because you do tend to hear the same, or at least similar pushback, that you would hear decades ago, during the year of more conservative integration policies. I guess the discussions around Brown v Board and Massive Resistance, you know, unfortunately, do tend to hear the same arguments in modern day deliberations with families kind of pushing back and threatening white flight from diversifying neighborhoods. I don't think that they're intentionally always saying, "Yes, I want segregated schools." I think a lot of families do want diverse schools, and some of them don't always know what that really means, and how we need to operate in order to get diverse schools. I think that's really sort of the vestiges of Massive Resistance in this state.
Michael Pope
You know, one thing that was really interesting about your report, Kathy Mendes, from the Commonwealth Institute, is that it focused so heavily on the history, and you spent quite a great deal of time walking through the Reconstruction Period, and Plessy v. Ferguson and Urban Renewal and explain why it was so important to give the history lesson here on segregation in schools.
Kathy Mendes
Yeah, so I think it's really important for a couple reasons. One reason is, I think, when we talk about segregation, like you were saying earlier, it really feels like we're talking about something that happens in textbooks, something that happens in sort of black and white photos, something that is no longer really our collective responsibility. The fact of the matter is, although we do go back to Reconstruction, a lot of these policy choices happened less than 100 years ago. So for example, in Prince Edward County, where that was really sort of the battleground of Massive Resistance and where Barbara Rose Johns, a student at Mountain High School, led a walkout in protest of the conditions of her school, they closed their schools for five years rather than integrate them. And that's something that was not long ago, right? So people who lost five years or less of their schooling can be alive today, right? This is not something that happened a really long time ago. Secondly, I thought it was really important to reframe the history of segregation in our state, from something that was purely done to people, to one that focuses on the successes and the triumphs of Black leaders and families in our state. So despite there being so much racist policy, throughout time, every step of the way, you really had Black families, students, leaders, securing wins for themselves the entire time taking the work into their own hands. And I felt that really needed to be recognized. So segregation is far from over. It's a rather young story, I think, one that we're still in the middle of that story today. And to counter that, we have to enact similarly intentional policies that are meant to last.
Thomas Bowman
Probably, it's important to point out that just because you lose a court case, doesn't mean your policymakers change, right? They just have to change the language they use trying to get the same outcome. So I guess in some ways, I'm not surprised. But also, as a one time white student, those students are actually like, hurt too, especially in today, where we're coming to terms with the fact that Black lives do matter. And many people of my generation did not ask for these legacy impacts, put it that way, and we don't agree with them, but we're coming out of these segregated schools with huge cultural blinders on, and that makes us deficient policymakers, as adults because of that, right? So like, I think it's very important to point out, even though it's not necessarily the goal, or the direction of your research here, but segregation really hurts white students in the long run, too.
Kathy Mendes
Yeah, in terms of outcomes, where it can increase education outcomes for students of color, Black students, and it doesn't have that much of an impact at all on students who are white and where I income. That's certainly true. But it's also true that you know, when students learn about different life experiences firsthand, they all become better critical thinkers, collaborators, communicators. And you know, we often say those are essential skills for the workplace and for your education, but it's also true in one's interpersonal life, right? Both historically disadvantaged and advantaged students, have social and cultural resources to impart with their peers, they all do. And so exchange of those resources is really necessary for meaningful relationship building for friendships, and for students who will eventually need to work and live with people who are not like them, right? So growing up in racially isolated schools definitely can lead students to form stereotypes about other people and perpetuate racism within education and beyond. So yes, I agree with you there.
Thomas Bowman
Genevieve, did you want to put any quotas here on your findings before we move on to our next segment?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
You know, I think your point about white policymakers having deficiencies because of their own experiences in segregated white schools, I think that same thing extends to parents and parents to young children, and was living in the city during the rezoning last fall in Richmond. And I think so much of the fear and anxiety that is at the heart of lack of contact with people of other races, flows from our own segregated childhood experiences. So that idea of you know, sending your child into a school, your white child into a school where they will be a racial, or ethnic minority, provokes fear and anxiety from parents who have led segregated white...And it, it's hard, but increasingly crucial to break that self perpetuating cycle of segregation. And then the last point about that cycle is, you know, the Commonwealth Institute's report shows the link between segregated schools and inequities in resource distribution. And I think that's really important, it becomes a chicken or an egg situation where white parents can point to segregated schools and the lack of resources as a reason they don't want to send their own children to those schools. At the same time, ignoring that deliberate policy choices that maintain segregation and the resource and inequality are the reasons that those schools have fewer resources.
Thomas Bowman
Okay, we're gonna take a quick break. We're here with Professor Genevieve Siegel-Hawley at VCU and Kathy Mendes at the Commonwealth Institute for Fiscal Analysis, and we are talking about school segregation in 2020.
Michael Pope
And we're back on Transition Virginia, we're talking about the lingering problem of racial segregation in Virginia schools. And there are these two research organizations Virginia Commonwealth University and the Commonwealth Institute that have both done some research on this and had some findings. Both of these reports also have some recommendations on how to fix the problem. Genevieve Siegel Hawley, I want to start with you and the Virginia Commonwealth University's suggestion that the state establish a new office or department inside of the Department of Education, one that could support voluntary integration, reduce segregation, collaborate housing policy. Explain how the sort of bureaucratic potential solution to this. Why create a new office, a new department? What good would that actually accomplish?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
So the officer department immediately it should happen in tandem with a number of our other recommendations. But in essence, you know, if, if the state doesn't define what school segregation is, and then set up a system and perhaps a department to hold school divisions and regions accountable for addressing school segregation, it's hard to imagine further work happening without those baseline measures in place. You need to define it, you need to evaluate it, and then you need to start holding school districts accountable for it. This department could help oversee that work, and it could also offer technical assistance around whatever plans school divisions or school regions come up with to address school segregation. Given the current legal context, I think technical assistance would be important for school districts. They need support thinking through these issues. So that's why we proposed creating a new small department within the existing bureaucracy.
Thomas Bowman
Kathy Mendes, your report here at the Commonwealth Institute, points out that it's going to take a system of intentional actionable and anti-racist policies to make high quality education a reality for Virginia students. So can you describe what are some of those policies Virginia should be exploring?
Kathy Mendes
Yeah, so we outline a few different areas of policy solutions, ranging from local level policies, that would kind of adjust school boundaries, to housing policies that could even address housing segregation, right, because there's a link there. So in terms of local and regional integration policies, that could take the form of regional magnet schools that could pull students across traditional boundary lines, district rezoning, which would happen on the local level, of course, with the individual school boards, sort of managing that effort. And then also managed choice systems, which could be an equity focused choice system, where it could kind of look like families submitting a set of school preferences, and their students assigned school could be based on a variety of goals that could include proximity diversity, among others. And that is a system that's used in several school districts nationwide, like the Louisville Jefferson County, Kentucky School District. The second piece is including diversity on the school quality report cards in Virginia. So the Virginia Board of Education could include levels of integration or diversity on our school quality report cards, and those line out a few different things about school divisions in Virginia, like chronic absenteeism, climate, teacher quality, that sort of thing. That could include integration and diversity as well. So we could really kind of change the narrative on what a quality school looks like, and sort of build that more on strengths rather than deficiencies. Our third point is fair funding. So we're always going to advocate for fair funding to make sure that students who have the greatest need for resources, get the greatest amount. So policymakers should reform Virginia's primary school funding formula to take into account student need, and they should fully fund the newly prescribed standards of quality put forward by the Board of Education, which would bring crucial resources and staffing to schools, like counselors and mental health professionals. And it would take into account student socioeconomic status when allocating money to local divisions in the primary formula. And lastly, policies to address housing segregation, so a more equitable approach to housing vouchers, inclusionary zoning laws, home-ownership and wealth building opportunities like down payment assistance or increased down payment assistance, and increase investments in the Housing Trust Fund and eviction diversion programs, can sort of begin to separate that link.
Michael Pope
So one similarity in both of these reports is the sort of carrot and stick approach. But I think you take your two different reports take a slightly different approach. And I'd like to open this up to both of you. The VCU report talks about certification requirements, so creating new requirements for certification superintendents, or school boards, or teachers, or principals. The Commonwealth Institute report talks about the accreditation system. And I'd like to open this up to both of you, is there, sort of looking at certification requirements and accreditation requirements, is that a good way to encourage behavior and sort of a carrot and stick model where you, you're discouraging certain kinds of behaviors and encouraging other kind of behaviors in terms of the certification or accreditation?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
Well, the tenor of this entire conversation points to the need for certification requirements that help people understand the history of racial discrimination in Virginia's public education system, and how that history has laid the groundwork for ongoing racial discrimination in the present. And so that was at the heart of that recommendation around certification, trying to help the stakeholders who wield power over these contemporary policies, trying to help them understand our history, and what would be needed in order to address the ongoing problems.
Kathy Mendes
You know, school accreditation systems take into account test scores and chronic absenteeism to sort of measure the quality of the school. So Virginia uses a mix of indicators. And those can all be useful for understanding where a school needs to grow and sort of crafting targeted interventions. But schools and the experience of students are more nuanced than that. And I think a lot of those indicators sort of look at deficiencies, right, so where a school is doing, perhaps poorly or looking at dropout rates, for example. Our intention in including, or proposing to include, integration and diversity measures in the accreditation process, is that it could incentivize localities to engage in policy-making that would make schools more diverse. So if it's a measure in getting schools accredited, then perhaps they would take policies a little bit more seriously to make sure schools look diverse. I think accreditation is something that's brought up in conversations a lot about the quality of schools, generally, and if a school isn't accredited, that is like, a serious mark on them, is the conversation, sometimes. If we include diversity as a measure in accreditation, then perhaps like you're saying, sort of carrot and stick there would be to incentivize localities in the state to work towards making our schools more diverse.
Thomas Bowman
So let's dive into this a little more, because I do political strategy and messaging for my day job. And I'm wondering, is there a way for well-meaning elected officials to re-frame these discussions, within their constituencies, to improve outcomes and minimize blow-back at the polls?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
I think the Commonwealth Institute's report does a nice job of outlining some of the research on the benefits of diverse schools, you know, as a researcher calling for people to delve deeper into the research may not radically reshape public opinion. But I do think the rationale for school integration is backed by decades of interdisciplinary social science evidence, you know? So you have this area of benefits around the intellectual stimulation of being in a diverse learning environment, listening to different perspective, understanding different lived experiences around complex problems. We've got good research suggesting that that promotes critical thinking, as Kathy mentioned, and that it helps teams come up with better and more creative solutions to really difficult problems. And I would argue that students who are attending homogeneous classrooms in schools, are not getting prepared for what work in life will be when they graduate. And then there's a realm of benefits related to the social emotional learning that occurs, when kids from different races, ethnicities, socioeconomic classes come together, close contact across lines of difference, especially when it begins at a young age, reduces prejudice. If you really know somebody from a group that's different from yours, you are less likely to generalize and stereotype and really knowing somebody and being friends with somebody from a different group also extends your awareness and your capacity to care to other groups. The last column would be around civic preparation, helping students become good citizens, that really care about one another, that know how to share critical resources. That kind of learning happens best in diverse schools. And I think we've had a lesson recently in how critical preparation for democracy really is. So I think better communicating the multi pronged benefits of integration for all students, is really critical for policymakers and politicians.
Michael Pope
On the issue of researchers asking people to look at the research, the Virginia Commonwealth University report, one of the specific recommendations is a J Lark study. Now lawmakers are traditionally very picky about what they want to ask J Lark to study because they don't have an unlimited number of reports they could do every year. So what would you say to lawmakers who were trying to figure out whether they wanted to do a J Lark study on this issue versus some other issue, in terms of how important this could be to study this issue and come up with recommendations for the General Assembly?
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
We've all recently been given a lesson in how critical public schools are to preparing our future generations and school segregation is at the heart of educational inequality. The longer we wait to provide a quality education to our rising racial majority, the more in jeopardy, our economic and democratic future. I would argue that there are few issues more important than school segregation for the Commonwealth to take up and a J Lark studies, one way of indicating that the state is serious about this issue.
Kathy Mendes
Yeah, I definitely would echo exactly what Genevieve just said in underscoring, that it is not an issue that we need to be waiting on any longer. And again, that segregation is not over. We're just in another chapter of segregation and the fight against segregation, as well. And I would also say that there is already some progress happening on the state level. So the Governor's commission to examine racial inequity in Virginia law is going to pass on many of the recommendations that we've listed out to the Governor and the General Assembly for consideration in this upcoming Legislative Session, which I think would bring us one step closer to meaningful change in education. And so these issues will be getting a little bit more time in the public eye in the coming months. And I think that is a really good opportunity for policymakers to be taking those issues seriously, understand that there's a lot of will around passing these kinds of laws right now. So a J Lark study would be instrumental in giving us, not just more information and data on the issue, but demonstrating how it is still something that people are thinking about really to counter that narrative, that is an issue that is just like simply over.
Thomas Bowman
We're here with Genevieve Siegel Hawley a professor at Virginia Commonwealth University, and Kathy Mendes at the Commonwealth Institute for Fiscal Analysis, talking about school segregation in 2020. We'll be right back with question time.
Michael Pope
And we're back on Transition Virginia. It's question time. This is a part of the podcast when we take questions from you, our listeners. You can send us an email, you can hit us up on Twitter or Facebook. You can become a Patreon and support the work that we do here on the podcast. Our first question comes from a friend of the podcast Alex Van Beek who wants to know about charter schools? How do charter schools, and perhaps even potentially private schools generally, affect school segregation? I'll open that up to either of you that want to answer.
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
We have strong evidence from a variety of states and just nationally that charter schools are linked to increased segregation in schools. And when you have a geographic area where multiple school choices proliferate, segregation tends to be worse. That's because information and resources are not distributed equally across the population. So families with more information and more resources, including the ability to get their kids to and from school, are more likely to exercise choice, which increases stratification. Now in Virginia, our current state charter laws have guarded against the rapid increase in charter schools. And that is a good thing. Both of these reports would likely show much deeper levels of segregation if we had more expansive use of charter schools across the state. At the same time, we do have some charter schools, and there are many states in a very different situation across the country. And so I think that it's really important for existing charter schools to incorporate civil rights protections. Those include deep and extensive outreach, free transportation for students, and admissions policies that prioritize student interest in the school, not the school's interest in the kids. Charter school should get rid of any parental involvement requirements that they might have, and examine other policies that may set up barriers to access.
Kathy Mendes
I think charter schools sometimes come up in the conversation about how to address segregation, but charter schools have mixed impacts in terms of improving student outcomes and can result in higher levels of socioeconomic and racial segregation. So that is why we did not consider that as a policy option to address segregation. In terms of private schools, again, I think building a strong public school system is integral to the democratic access of education to students in the state. And I would also say that private schools, again, also have a history that increased segregation in the past, right? So during the time of Massive Resistance, private schools were created to draw white students into those schools in order to circumvent integration, right, the creation of private academies known as segregation academies, tuition grants or vouchers are given to white students who found themselves in an integrated school. These are really ways to circumvent integration. So I don't think that there's necessarily something wrong with the existence of private schools, but that the priority should always be to create a very well resourced, diverse, robust system of public education because that is a social good. It's one that we've attempted to guarantee to every student. So our focus our resources, our attention should really be on building a system of public education in Virginia that works for all students.
Thomas Bowman
Another question, friend of the pod, Rachel, she says students of color are often disproportionately placed in separate special education classes in Virginia. A 2017 report from Henrico County showed that Black male students are significantly more likely to be placed in special education than white students, meaning that segregation can still happen within unsegregated schools. She asked, "How do you think that factors into your findings? And what should be done to fix this problem?" Genevieve, let's start with you.
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
I think this is such an important question. And that is that the work of integration doesn't stop once you have a diverse school, it also has to take place within school. We have good research to suggest that within school segregation is an ongoing issue and a real barrier to realizing the full array of benefits of school integration. So that means paying attention to racially disproportionate assignments, like special education to include gifted and talented. And it also means paying attention to racial and economic diversity in classrooms, within a school, and also to racial inequities in the school discipline, just to name a few. This requires ongoing and intentional work within the school, a willingness to openly discuss and address racial inequities with the teachers, with the staff, and with the parents in the school community, with the families in this community. So again, I appreciate the listener, bringing up this point. We do plan on releasing a follow up brief that outlines the scope of within school segregation in the state. Although, again, there are some data limitations with that.
Kathy Mendes
I also think it's an extremely important question, and one that I've gotten before. And I think that really shows also that people are thinking about this in really meaningful ways. This is something that I saw, even in my own schooling experience in Virginia, I went to public schools here my whole life. And it is true that even in the more diverse schools, that there is within school segregation, still, that resources and information are still unevenly distributed among the student body and among families. So I think that is a priority that moving forward when we talk about segregation, that should be part of the discussion. And it's something I'm certainly looking forward to exploring more. And Genevieve, I'm really looking forward to that second piece of your research on within school segregation. And I would just echo many of the things that she said, especially in terms of gifted and talented programs. One thing I've heard in making that system more equitable, is a universal testing system. So instead of relying on teacher identification of gifted students in the classroom, that all students would be tested for giftedness, and determine from there. So that's one way you can approach it, is less a less reliance on teacher identification where, you know, it might just be left up to an individual to decide whether that's admission into gifted and talented programs or other programs, special ed classes, things of that nature.
Thomas Bowman
It strikes me that one solution, at least under the existing system, could be recruiting teachers of color, right, teachers that look like these students that have culturally relevant experience to that student, you might improve outcomes that way.
Kathy Mendes
Yes.
Michael Pope
So one final question before we wrap up. And I really appreciate both of your time today. Where can listeners go to look at these reports and read them and any other final thoughts you have on this topic? Genevieve Siegel Hawley, I'll start with you.
Genevieve Siegel-Hawley
So this report, it was a partnership, we've had just a brilliant team working together on it and the follow ups that that are to come. A partnership between Penn State's Center for Education and civil rights, and VCU. So you can find the report on Penn State's Center for Education and Civil Rights. It's called School Segregation by Boundary Line in Virginia. And you can also find it on scholars compass at VCU if you search for School Segregation by Boundary Line in Virginia.
Kathy Mendes
And you can find our report at the website the Commonwealthinstitute.org. It is called Modern Day School Segregation Addressing the Lasting Impacts of Racist Choices on Virginia's Education System. You can download the PDF there but I also highly recommend that folks check out the online version, especially the historic section, not just satisfy ourselves on the subject, but also because we have an interactive historic timeline, which is pretty new for us. So you can hands on interact with a timeline of events relating to school segregation, dating back to Reconstruction, so highly recommend that you check out the online version.
Thomas Bowman
I also recommend you check out the online version because there is never enough time in a format like this to dissect such a complicated issue. And so with that, that's all for this episode. If you have comments or questions about what you just heard, or maybe you only want to tell us what you think about the show, write an email send it to us at TransitionVApodcast@gmail.com and we can possibly read it on the air. Subscribe to Transition Virginia anywhere pods are cast, leave us a five star review. Follow the transition team on Twitter @TransitionVA and find us on the web at transitionvirginia.com. Don't forget to like and subscribe so you can enjoy our next episode of Transition Virginia.
