What is the 'Right to Work' and Should Democrats Repeal It?
Delegate Lee Carter (D-Manassas) and Jason Parker, President of the VA Building and Construction Trades (AFL-CIO) join the Transition Team to dissect Virginia's Right-to-Work law. We delve into the politics of efforts to repeal it and examine how Gov. Bill Tuck was passed the bill through the General Assembly in 1947. Finally, our guests answer listeners' questions.
Michael Pope
Welcome to Transition Virginia, the podcast that examines the transition of power from Republican to Democrat. My name is Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
And I'm Thomas Bowman. Today on the podcast, the so called "Right to Work law." Virginia is one of 27 states that has a law preventing employers from compelling their workers to pay union dues, which means that people who are not members of the union, and don't pay dues, get all the advantages of being represented by the union. Labor groups have wanted to get rid of this thing for years, but now that Democrats are in control of the General Assembly, business groups have been able to keep it from getting to the House floor. Today, we'll talk to the foremost enemy of the Right to Work Law, the man who introduced the bill to overturn it, Delegate Lee Carter of Manassas, thank you for joining us.
Lee Carter
Thank you so much for having me. When you introduce me like that, you should see me over here flexing.
Michael Pope
We are also joined by the president of the Virginia State Building and Construction Trades Council, Jason Parker. Jason, thanks for joining us.
Jason Parker
Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.
Michael Pope
All right. Now, the effort to get rid of the Right to Work Law had little support from Governor Ralph Northam. When I cornered him at the Governor's Mansion, and asked him about his position on the bill, when he answered the question, he started by listing off other agenda items that were not the Right to Work Law. So I stopped him while he was talking about this and asked him to answer my question about the Right to Work Law. This is how he responded.
Ralph Northam
Let's do things that are realistic in the Commonwealth of Virginia this year. And that's why I'm listing some things that are realistic.
Michael Pope
Lots of people would say that is realistic.
Ralph Northam
Well, we will have that discussion if and when it gets to my desk.
Michael Pope
"If and when it gets to his desk," turned out to be never, didn't get to his desk. And you get the sense the Governor really kind of knew that all along, which is why he tried to change the topic of conversation when I asked him about it. Lee Carter, why does the Governor believe that this is not realistic and how do you change his mind?
Lee Carter
Well, you know, this, this question really speaks to a strategic mindset split within the Democratic Party. You know, you've got a lot of people who think that the way you get things done is by waiting for public opinion, waiting for the polls to show that it's supported, or waiting for it to be popular with donors before you even try. And then you've got me and a number of others, mostly newer members, who think that the way you get something done, particularly something controversial, is you put it in, and you make your pitch, and you know, you shoot that shot, and in the process of fighting for it, that's how you build the support for it. And so when he says, "it's not realistic," what he means is he doesn't feel comfortable enough going out on a limb for this policy yet. And I'm out there hanging out on that limb, waving and saying, "Come on in guys, the water is fine." So it's it's this really interesting, strategic split within the Democratic Party that that shows up, you know, not just on this issue, but on a lot of issues.
Thomas Bowman
So unsurprisingly, business groups love the Right to Work Law, and they're willing to lobby hard to kill any attempt to overturn it. Here's Brett Vassey at the Virginia Manufacturers Association.
Brett Vassey
Forced unionization in any form, whether it is the misnamed Fair Act, where you have to pay dues, whether you're a member or not, or whether it is outright ban on Right to Work, all of it is forced unionization in some fashion. And that's not good for Virginia, either. We want to let employees make their choice, and they will, and they have that right every day, to be forced not to not to be compelled to join a union in any way. And that's what we're about, is protecting that for everybody.
Thomas Bowman
Jason Parker with The Virginia Building Trades, what would you say to Brett Vassey and other people who say they want to protect workers?
Jason Parker
So it always amazes me this this type of branding and it works, unfortunately, but but if you take a look at it, take a look at any any state that is not a Right to Work state, what you see is that you have the ability to be a fee paying, or dues paying objector, you don't have to join the union. But the thing that always amazes me with this is that you get that job, you go for that job, because that job has great benefits, has great terms and conditions, that those brothers and sisters have fought for, for probably decades to get, you come in, and you you weaken the resolve of the unit. And at some point, you could weaken it so much, with so many just free riders, they could decertify the unit. And within a short amount of time, all those terms and conditions can be lost. And you know, when you take a look at Virginia, especially in the sense of business, it always amazes me how they think they're so very, very good at business, when they're actually the number one state for federal dollars, or otherwise we'd be Mississippi. So, these guys have a wonderful spiel, but the reality doesn't check with their jargon, if you will.
Michael Pope
Now, when you talk to Democrats in Virginia about this issue, you get the sense that a lot of them agree, in principle, with ditching the Right to Work Law in theory, but then when you ask them how to make it happen, you get a lot of talk about how complicated it is, and how much time it'll take to make it happen. I asked Senator Scott Surovell about overturning the Right to Work Law earlier this year, and this is how he responded to me.
Scott Surovell
One thing that kind of changed on the Virginia employment system, all at once, this fast, I think is something that we need to think about, and look at, and prepare for more than just walking one Session and declaring that's what we're going to do on July 1. It's just it's a big change in law.
Michael Pope
Lee Carter, how do you pull the Scott Surovell's of the world over to your side on this? How are you going to persuade them to do this?
Lee Carter
Well, first of all, I think, "inflicting," is an interesting verb choice there. But you know, there's always, when you're talking about trying to change a politician's mind, there's always things that fall into the category of, "carrot," and things that fall into the category of, "stick." And, you know, looking at the carrot, you know, there's there's all sorts of benefits to repealing the so called Right to Work Law. You look at free bargaining states, and they have higher life expectantcies. They have better workplace safety, they have better wages, they have, you know, less of a wage gap between the genders and between racial and ethnic groups. And so there's there's all sorts of benefits that you can point to, for a greater health of the Commonwealth, that that you can use to convince skeptical Democrats that we need to repeal this law. But you know, when you look at the category of the stick, I think that the single biggest thing that that stands out to me, is the fact that the number one thing Republicans do, the very first thing Republicans do when they take trifecta control of a new state, is they implement a Right to Work Law. I mean, it is the first thing in their playbook. And it's because Republicans know that business interests love a Right to Work Law, because it means people are easier to exploit. And so when they implement a Right to Work Law, in a new state, you have this sort of follow on effect, where, where there's all those negative effects, you know, the inverse of what I talked about in the carrot category. And also, because people's quality of life is is declining, there are a lot of people who suddenly sit out of elections. And so you get this, this weird sort of partisan bump, you know, four or five years later for Republicans after they implement a Right to Work Law. So you've got it, you've got to go with this, this two prong strategy, talking to folks where it's like, it's the right thing to do on one hand, and it's also just objectively good politics on the other.
Thomas Bowman
Jason Parker, I'm interested, how would you characterize the political landscape in Virginia to repeal Right to Work? And are you able to describe some of your efforts?
Jason Parker
Um, you know, they're nervous about it. It's a it's the ultimate to them, Commerce Law, for some reason, I've never understood it. I mean, all Right to Work really does is forbid an agreement between an employer and a union, to have a Union Security Clause. It's very weird to me about that, because I was just on a NAB to North American Building Trades Union call, and we discussed this, you know, the Republicans would be disgusted if government got involved in prohibiting such agreement with any other type of agreement, but because they perceive us, these Republicans, as political enemies, they know that by diluting union density, that they in fact, weaken their political adversaries as they see them. So for me, you know, ultimately, there's a lot of myth around this particular law, it's been blown up into something bigger. I guess they see it as a business signal to the rest of the world to come to Virginia and abuse our workers. But ultimately it doesn't have any other real effect other than that union Security Clause in a contract or a collective bargaining agreement between the union and an employer.
Michael Pope
Lee Carter, I'm wondering if you could walk us through what happened with your bill this year. So I thought that it had an interesting journey, because it went to a subcommittee in Labor and Commerce, passed with a party line vote. So all the Democrats voted in favor of it, all the Republicans voted against it. Then it went to the full Labor and Commerce Committee, where once again, it passed with a party line vote. All the Democrats voted for your bill, all the Republicans voted against your bill. So so far, so good, right? Then it goes to appropriations where it died a very quiet death, with no debate and no votes. So this thing actually died with zero Democrats voting against it. Give us your perspective of what happened to your bill this year, and walk us through the journey.
Lee Carter
Well, first, I want to talk about what happened to it in 2019, under under Republican control. Last year was the second year that I've introduced a bill. And so the first time I introduced the bill, you know, I put it in, and there was all sorts of consternation from my fellow Democrats, a lot of them saying, you know, "Why are you doing this to us? Don't you know, we're gonna lose the elections because of this." Spoiler alert, we didn't. But the Republicans were gloating. They were gleeful. They loved the fact that I put this bill in, until we got thousands and thousands of teachers, and union workers down there to the Capitol, and they said, you know, "We're we're really watching what you do on these bills that are important to us." And, you know, a lot of those folks who are from Southwest Virginia, places that are represented by very, very conservative Republicans, but they're also places with a long history of union labor, right? There, you know, there's a lot of families there who...Granddaddy was a union coal miner, and, you know, someone currently is a union electrician, or, you know, a communications worker, or what have you. And so you get this interesting pressure on the Republicans to make it disappear. And so in 2019, it did just that, it disappeared without a vote in any committee. So I put it back in in 2020 with Democratic control and I said, "All right, yeah, this is, it's a different party in power, we're going to have a different outcome." And so I put the bill in, and I actually got a hearing, I got to present the bill for the first time, rather than just having it die as though it never existed. And yeah, we went through the Labor and Commerce Committee all went well, this is farther than the bills ever gotten. But then it got sent over to Appropriations, I'm still not entirely sure why Appropriations got involved in it, since there was no defined budgetary impact. But, you know, into Appropriations, and it again, died quietly, this time under Democratic control. So it's interesting that that the only real difference was that it got one hearing before dying without a vote, as opposed to no hearings before dying without a vote.
Michael Pope
Now, one of the arguments you hear from opponents of this is overturning the Right to Work Law is bad for business. And businesses across the country, they might not want to move their business to Virginia. Jason Parker, what would you say to Democrats and any anyone who was concerned about potential negative business consequences of overturning the Right to Work Law?
Jason Parker
I think that's, that's a that's a fallacy right there. I mean, I tell that to New York, or California, or tell it to Washington, I mean, they Washington was the number one state for workers, I mean, two or three years ago, and the number one state for business. When a business looks to come to Virginia, it's looking for three things. It's looking for the quality of our education system, it's looking for the quality of our workforce, and it's looking for the quality of our infrastructure. It isn't sitting there looking for Right to Work states to go work at. That is, that is a another bit of myth that surrounds this law. You're telling me that Amazon, who originally was going to go to New York came to Virginia, because we were rRght to Work? No. There is...these people have created layer after layer of very murky arguments. I guarantee you, Virginia ain't gonna fall off the map if we were to repeal Right to Work, it might actually even bolster our workforce, because as Delegate Carter talked about earlier, you have higher safety levels, you have higher soft benefits, like like training and things like that and your workforce develops to a much higher, more sophisticated workforce.
Thomas Bowman
All right, well, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to discuss the backstory behind Right to Work. We're joined with Delegate Lee Carter, as well as Jason Parker, President of the Virginia State Building and Construction Trades Council.
Michael Pope
And we're back on Transition Virginia. We're gonna get in our time machine and head back to the 1940s. That was a time of dramatic labor disputes across the country. Here in Virginia, it reached a flashpoint, involving workers at the Virginia Electric and Power Company, a utility known as VEPCO, that was the forerunner to modern day Dominion Energy. Now, in 1946, VEPCO and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers were in a bitter stalemate over contract negotiations. Union leaders announced 1800 workers would be striking unless they were able to negotiate a new contract. Now that would have meant a blackout for 63 counties in Virginia, and 16 counties in North Carolina, and four in West Virginia. So it would have been a really big deal. Now the Governor at the time was a guy by the name of Bill Tuck, and he was not about to let that happen. Instead, he announced Virginia would seize and operate the utility to head off the strike. Here's audio from Governor Bill Tuck in the 1940s, talking about why he was willing to take such drastic measures.
Bill Tuck
I hold it to be an invaluable principle of the Democratic state, that no group of men, whoever they may be, shall have the right to weld themselves together and act in such a way as to place and jeopardy the safety and health or welfare of the general public.
Michael Pope
The applause you hear there is from members of the General Assembly. The occasion was the 1947 State of the Commonwealth Address, just after Governor Tuck solved his VEPCO problem with an extremely unusual solution. Now fans of "Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan," might be tempted to compare it to the Kobayashi Maru, he declared a state of emergency, then issued an executive order, inducting all VEPCO employees into an organized militia. If they failed to show up for work, they could be fined $200, or sentenced to 200 days in jail. That killed the strike, but the Governor was not done yet. When lawmakers arrived in Richmond for the 1947 Session, he introduced the Right to Work Bill. Here's Governor Tuck during his State of the Commonwealth Address in 1947, outlining his proposal.
Bill Tuck
Right to Work Bill is designed to preserve the liberty of the individual right. It would ensure that his right to earn a livelihood for himself and his family, would not be dependent upon the whim of an arbitrary, unscrupulous or despotic union leader.
Michael Pope
Now special thanks to the Library of Virginia for this audio, which was originally aired on WRVA. Now, Lee Carter, I know you have taken a look at how the Right to Work Movement evolved in the 1940s. How did Governor Tuck's actions, here in Virginia, fit into this larger picture of what was happening with labor unions across the country at the time?
Lee Carter
You know, I think uh Governor Tuck's actions back then, you know, this is a guy that was elected in 1945. He really just sort of tore the mask off of how intertwined the electric utility has been with, with Virginia government for so long. You know, this is just another chapter in the history of this, intermingling, of sort of Dominion Energy and Virginia politics. Now, you look at Henry Howell in the in the 50s and 60s, where he had bumper stickers that said, you know, "Welcome to Virginia, owned and operated by VEPCO." And now apparently, in the 40s, you know, you had, you had the governor who was using executive authority to tell electric workers that they had to show up for work or go to jail. I mean, that is unreal, just just how explicit it was that this was an action taken on behalf of the electric utility.
Thomas Bowman
Governor Tuck did not hide the logic behind his Right to Work Bill.
Lee Carter
Not one bit.
Thomas Bowman
Would explaining it to a joint Session of the General Assembly, he pretty much laid it out as an effort to prevent collective bargaining.
Bill Tuck
That America would make it unlawful for an employer to enter into a contract with a labor organization whereby any part as a condition of employment or continuation of employment, shall be required to become or remain a member of a labor organization or pay dues to any such organization. It would also prohibit an employer from refined that a workman be a non union man, as a condition of employment, thus assisting workers in establishing and maintaining collective bargaining.
Thomas Bowman
Jason Parker, why was collective bargaining such a threat to Governor Tuck? And why does it remain such a Boogeyman today?
Jason Parker
Um, you know, solidarity is our strength. And you know, one of the things that we've always talked about, if you want to put an employer in his place, put your hands in your pocket as a group. That was the mentality and, you know, there's been other mechanisms now that that function in this space, like, for example, FMCS, Federal Mediation Conciliation Service, it only has like 87 employees, and its whole purpose is to go and mediate these moments of clashing between a union and an employer. And you know, when you look at Right to Work, I guess they felt it was a way to, again, dilute the density of the union membership within a unit, so that if they did have a strike, you would have enough people cross the line, and keep whatever function they need functioning. It's pretty sad actually, to hear that. Sounds to me like the Governor didn't do his work right, he probably should have put himself into those negotiations, and pressured both the union and, and the employer to come together and get their terms and conditions set in that particular negotiation.
Michael Pope
Now, the battle between Governor Tuck and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers got kind of personal. Here's the Governor making the case that unions are a threat to the American way of life.
Bill Tuck
Labor unions have served a useful purpose in our economy, and know that we'll continue to do so. A wise government keeps them within that proper field. But if our system of government with all it's blessings just to survive, the existing economic dictatorship imposed by ruthless union leaders must be turned.
Michael Pope
Ruthless union leaders. Lee Carter, by the end of this, I'm going to get you to do your Governor Tuck impression here. Now, he calls union leaders, "ruthless," and he says, "It's a threat to the American way of life." This seems to be an approach tailor made to the 1940s mindset. Is it still relevant today?
Lee Carter
No, and it never was. You know, there's there's this, this talking point out there that unions are some third party that comes in and causes trouble. And, you know, in the words of Governor Tuck, it poses an economic dictatorship, but that's not what a union is at all, you know, a union is just a group of employees, who have come together and said that, you know, "We're going to look out for the, you know, the person to my left, the person to my right, and we're going to look out for our community, our family, we're going to look out for everyone. And we're going to do this by saying that, you know, we're gonna, instead of going to the boss individually, and saying, 'Hey, I have a complaint about the way things are going,' and risking the boss saying, 'Okay, well, if you have a complaint, you're fired,' We're just going to go in as a group, and we're going to say, 'We have a complaint about the way things are going.'" That's all union is, it's just a group of people that work in the same place, that are that are, you know, presenting their concerns together. And so presenting it as some sort of third party, and economic dictatorship, is just ridiculous, especially, you know, you look at the structure of a modern company, you go to work 8,9,10 hours a day, and and for those hours, you have absolutely no control over your life. You don't control when you go in, you don't control what you do, you definitely don't control what's done with the money that you're producing for the company. A company itself is an economic dictatorship. And and it's this interesting sort of accusing the other side of what we're doing that you hear from business leaders, when they say that a union is an economic dictatorship, it's just it's absurd.
Jason Parker
There's only one boss in the union, and that's the membership.
Lee Carter
That's right.
Jason Parker
It is a Democratic construct in every way, shape, and form, from stem to stern, and it's a hilarity that there's this, this creation of this Boogeyman called the Union Boss, there's one boss, the members.
Thomas Bowman
Jason, can you expand on that and tell us what did Governor Tuck just get flat out wrong?
Jason Parker
He's making it seem like there's a group of people that come in and instill some kind of empowered will on a workforce and thus, forces the workers in the company to come into conflict, and it sounds like to me, even a more expansive sphere at the expense of the state of Virginia and the safety of its citizens. The fact of the matter is, to unionize, you have to vote to do that. To strike, you have to vote to do that. Okay, it takes the membership to do that. The membership has to ratify the contract they get. He he has this idea that there's just this group of men and women that are at the very top, and they dictate down through, you know, like, there isn't bylaws, like there isn't the Constitution, like there isn't a collective bargaining agreement, he has apparently a very rudimentary understanding of how a union operates its functions and why it exists.
Lee Carter
I mean, maybe I'm just cynical, but I don't think that he actually believes that. I think that he's, you know, whenever you hear this from Governor Tuck in the 40s, all the way up to, you know, the Economic Development Partnership now, when they say stuff like this, about third parties coming in, they know that it's not a third party. They just say it because they know that if they actually talked about why they oppose unions in the workplace, is that, "Oh, you know, it's a disruption of our ability to exploit people." They would never, never win any of those battles if they were honest.
Thomas Bowman
All right, well, let's take one more break because we are almost ready for question time. That's my favorite segment. That's when we take questions from our listeners, our Patreon supporters, and present them to our guests. So once again, we're here with Delegate Lee Carter, and Jason Parker, President of the Virginia State Building and Construction Trades Council.
Michael Pope
And we're back on Transition Virginia. It's question time. This is the part of the podcast when we take questions from you. If you want to ask us a question, hit us up on Twitter or Facebook, you can also become a Patreon and support the work that we do on the show. Now this first question comes from Jay Spear at the Virginia Poverty Law Center, who appeared on one of our previous episodes. He asks, "Why is it called the Right to Work Law, when it really is the right of government to tell private employers that they cannot make contracts with unions? Lee Carter, I know you have an interest in the origin of the phrase, "Right to Work," and how it made its way throughout the country and eventually here to Virginia. Walk us through the origin of the phrase, "Right to Work."
Lee Carter
Yeah. So back in the 1940s, when Right to Work Laws were first being proposed, there was this Texas businessman/lobbyists named Vance Muse who was was actually pretty explicit that the goal of these laws, the goal of passing them through Southern legislators, was to create a conflict between White workers and Black workers. And and you know, he, he came up with this name, to say, "You know, it's your right to work in a segregated workplace, right?" You know, and there's this talking point of forced unionization, he completed the sentence every time by saying, "You know, you shouldn't be forced to join a union that's integrated." So, you know, it was it was very explicitly a racist project back then. It's interesting when we hear the audio from from Governor Tuck, the language around it sounds a little more modern, there's more layers of abstraction. But, you know, if you look at the historical record, behind the scenes, the guy that was pushing for these laws, all across the country, was very, very abundantly clear that he came up with this name, as a way to play on racial and ethnic tensions in a way that big business could exploit.
Michael Pope
And the name is so influential, and it influences how people think about this, and I mean, how could you be opposed to the right to work? Lee Carter, I know you have another name that you like to call it, what do you like to call this law?
Lee Carter
I like to call it the Freeloader Law. Because that's exactly what it is. You know, when you look at the the federal law, in particular, with with Taft Hartley, unions are forced to bargain on behalf of everyone in the workplace, whether that person is a member or not, whether that person pays dues or not. And so, it's very common to have these, in free bargaining states, it's very common to have clauses in the contract that say that if you receive the benefits of a union, you have to compensate the union for the bargaining that they're doing on your behalf. I mean, it's, it's just fair, but in so called Right to Work states, you've got the state government coming in and forcing the union to forego that, that ability to recoup their expenses. So you you know, the union is actually the one being forced to exert effort, and create these benefits for everybody, without being compensated. That was exactly the point of the law, was to force unions to bargain on behalf of people who don't want to contribute in return.
Jason Parker
So in conjunction with the National Labor Relations Act, and like Taft Hartley, you have a thing called Duty of Representation, you can't just pick and choose what you represent. So a lot of times, you have to go and represent somebody, and then, they'd not contributed to the union at all financially, which is a resource that all of those members contribute to, to have the representation, and the expertise, and the counsel they need, and the constructs they need to actually push back on a corporation. But now you have the ability to sue the local union you haven't actually contributed to, because you don't feel like they represented you well. I mean, it is a it is a demanded service and there's a liability to it. So it's a pretty gruesome situation. And all it does is weaken the union, both in solidarity and financially, and can become a ginormous liability, potentially.
Lee Carter
Yeah. And, you know, again, talking about what the union is, it's not some third party. It's not an outside organization. So, you know, this, this came about because of a strike at VEPCO, we're talking about, you know, the the linemen to your left, and the linemen to your right, that are paying for these benefits that you're receiving. So, you know, it's it's really just taking from the community and not not contributing to something that benefits everybody.
Thomas Bowman
Okay, our next question comes from friend of the podcast, Trevor Southerland, the former Executive Director of the House Democratic Caucus, and he wants to know, in layman's terms, what would the actual result of a Right to Work repeal be on the average Virginia worker? For example, can you say how it would affect a bartender, a hotel front desk person, someone who works at my local mechanic, and someone who works at a Walmart, or any other big box store that isn't currently unionized? So Jason, how would this actually work in the real world?
Jason Parker
I don't think it have very much of an effect on him at all, other than it may in some of those cases, in bold and certain working groups who may be having an election and form a union, and it wouldn't have the stigma of some kind of negative on it, like with the name Right to Work. Other than that, you know, I mean, just right away, now, there is some, you know, evidence out there that as unions increase in a state, the average workers rights and benefits and wages go up. So it could have that effect. But that is a lagging effect. And it's ultimately, they wouldn't notice a difference. And I don't believe business would either other than that a few maybe of these businesses that are already unionized, might see higher membership. Once the worker that was, you know, maybe not a member, decided that he can either pay the objector fee, or he could be actually a member. And when you look at the calculations of creating a fee paying objector, what you have is, all you do is take out the political contributions and you also take out maybe some of the the charity contributions, that are sometime voted on the floor, but other than that, the calculation for representation is pretty solid.
Michael Pope
Our next question comes from our friends at the Bold Dominion Podcast, Nathan Moore wants to know, "What will it take to get Democratic majorities to end this anti-worker policy?" Open question to anyone who wants to answer it.
Lee Carter
Well, what it's going to take is, is a combination of, you know, for my opinions, can take a combination of convincing Democratic legislators that there's a benefit to their constituents and a benefit to them politically to do it. And also, you know, convincing some of them that there's some peril involved in obstructing it. Politicians don't generally do things out of the goodness of their hearts, you know, a lot of my colleagues just respond to political pressures, it's gonna take political pressure.
Jason Parker
I'll jump in on that. I would agree with the Delegate on that. He, and he has a much, much clearer view of that. I mean, I know I lobby, but I mean, he's in there, and he's dealing with these people in Caucus and everything else. One of the things that we noticed, when especially you were talking about the 2019 Session, you know, everybody got some real cold feet, everybody got a little nervous. And people wanted passes from the AFLCIO, because if you look at our survey, that's one of the questions we asked, you know, do you support repealing Right to Work? And our president told him, "No, there are no passes, you're going on record. You committed to these ideas, when you ask for endorsement, and here's where the rubber in the road meet. So realities it's tough bit of business, you chose to be this this delegate or this senator. And yes, the eyes of the world they are watching." So I do want to understand one thing that when I'm watching this, is that slowly but surely, I'm sure the Delegate could speak more on this. We're watching this, this this line in the sand move, because it's becoming more and more of the new normal, the idea of repealing. And I think you'll see people, more and more become comfortable with the idea when they realize that all these elaborated fears, and all these exaggerated outcomes are myth, like I was saying earlier that, your life won't change one bit, the second they repeal Right to Work.
Michael Pope
I'm wondering if anyone thinks it's realistic this actually could happen in 2021? I mean, I know, clearly, you are both in favor of this. I got that. And you've made your case, I'm wondering how realistic it actually is for 2021? Or is this something we're looking at down the line?
Lee Carter
Well, I've I've gotten out of the business of trying to predict what my colleagues will and won't pass. I'm very much the outlier within the General Assembly, because, you know, I, I ran for office because I got hurt at work, right? So, you know, I'm there as this sort of "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington," kind of kind of guy. You know, I don't typically think about whether or not my own political future is in peril when I put in a bill, I just put in a bill because it's the right thing to do. You know, I do things that I feel are morally right. And and that I feel will be beneficial to my constituents. But yeah, you know, that the seas are changing a bit. Whether they've changed enough, we'll find out in a couple of months, but this law, it's days are numbered. And so the question is, you know, whether it gets repealed this year, or next year, or five years from now, it's going to go away. You can't stop something that's beneficial to all the people forever. So I'd encourage my colleagues to do it now, rather than waiting until the political winds are so overwhelming, but we're getting rid of this thing one way or another.
Thomas Bowman
That's really good to hear. And I also imagine that this issue would get a big boost from the 2021 Gubernatorial elections. Delegate Carter, do you want to take this minute to draw a line in the sand for anybody else thinking about running for office?
Lee Carter
Well, I certainly have my thoughts on the on the upcoming Gubernatorial elections. You know, I've not made it a secret the last few days that I'm I'm considering whether or not to run myself, I still haven't 100% made that decision. But yeah, you know, it's, it's gonna be a major issue in this election. It's going to be one of the big headlining issues in this election. And if you are unwilling to stick your neck out there and say, "Yes, I'm going to repeal this law, because the law itself is bad for the people of this Commonwealth," than I think there's going to be a lot of people who base their decision of whether or not to support you on your answer to that question.
Jason Parker
I'd like to add something that for the general public. I don't think anyone's going to change or maneuver they're vote based on Right to Work. So I agree with the Delegate, it's a it's a it's a tide that's coming. And if I was the Governor, I would be wanting to get my grubby hands on that bill to put it down. I mean, that would be a historic moment for workers in the state of Virginia.
Lee Carter
And everywhere, you know, we'd be the first state to overturn it legislatively. There have been other states who overturned Right to Work laws through the courts, but we would be the first to actually pass a bill to repeal that law.
Thomas Bowman
All right, well, let's do everybody's final thoughts, and then we'll wrap it up. Jason Parker, I'll throw it to you first.
Jason Parker
Um, so you know, for us, we spent a lot of effort in the building trades and in the AFL CIO, trying to get collective bargaining back for people. Improve minimum wage, of course, we've had a lot of safety issues with COVID-19 and other items, misclassification of workers, we've got ourselves a prevailing wage for the state attached to Davis Bacon. And we finally got rid of the Comstock Rule, and brought back Project Labor Agreements, and got private calls to action with general contractor liability. For us, this has been an item of creating union density, we feel like with union density comes political muscle, and at the very end of that road, we see putting down Right to Work. It would be lovely if it just went down in flames this year. But I wouldn't suspect it as Lee has talked, you know, there there's just been a lot of, I guess, hang ups emotionally, mentally. I don't know maybe through who knows what. But this laws days are numbered. We're coming for it. And we're coming for it because we want Virginians to make a good living. We have a huge Delta from the southern border to the northern border. And when it comes to wages, we need to make sure that everybody in the state of Virginia works, a day's work goes on their family, can have family sustaining wages in a life that's comfortable and agreeable, rather than scraping together every nickel you can, to just get the bare necessities that you can get.
Thomas Bowman
Alright, Delegate Lee Carter, what about you?
Lee Carter
Yeah, I think Jason really nailed it. This is about who has the power over decisions that impact your life, your health, your family, your bottom line. So, you know, on bill after bill after bill, we're making decisions that impact whether future decisions are made in boardrooms, in, you know, New York or London, or wherever, or if those decisions that impact you are being made by you, and your co workers. You know, me personally, I would much rather that the power over those decisions be made in your workplace, in your living room, at the ballot box here at home, rather than having those decisions be made by unelected executives and shareholders, that currently have that power just by virtue of the fact that they have more money. So bottom line, this is about who's running your life. I want to repeal Right to Work so that you have that power back, you have that control back over your life, and not some far away executive.
Michael Pope
Alright, I've got a quick final thought that actually has nothing to do with the Right to Work Law at all, but has to do with this podcast. I am so excited, I got to use audio from WRVA, that broadcast in the 1940s that I got from the Library of Virginia. And also I got to make a reference to "Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan," which as Thomas knows, is one of my favorite movies. So that's like the Venn diagram of everything that's awesome in this podcast.
Thomas Bowman
All right. And I too, have one final thought, and then I'll take us out. I think repealing Right to Work is a very efficient, free market way to attack poverty. And attacking poverty should be the number one priority for Democrats right now, because extreme economics leads to extreme politics. And so if we ever want to heal as a country, if we ever want to heal as a society, we need to increase household wealth, and increasing household wealth, there's no better way to do that than to have them represented by a union. So that's it for this episode. If you have comments or questions about what you just heard, or maybe you only want to tell us what you think about the show, write an email, send it to us at TransitionVApodcast@gmail.com so we can read it on the air. Subscribe to Transition Virginia anywhere pods are cast, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, or find us on the web at transitionvirginia.com. Don't forget to like and subscribe so you can enjoy our next episode of Transition Virginia.
