Rep. Don Beyer: Defending Against Russian Disinformation
IN THE NEWS: Governor Youngkin has appointed a new elections commissioner: Susan Beals, a former member of the Chesterfield Electoral Board and a former aide for Republican state Senator Amanda Chase.
A new bill on the Governor's desk could allow police departments to use facial recognition AI to identify subjects, but faces pushback from critics of disproportionate policing.
A judge has ruled that mask mandates could be considered reasonable for students at high risk of COVID-19 under the Americans with Disabilities Act.
GUEST: Rep. Don Beyer (VA-08) is the sponsor of new federal legislation to educate Americans on how to spot Russian disinformation and misinformation campaigns. He modeled the bill on a program in Finland that's been successful for decades and would create a commission to study misinformation and develop successful ways to inoculate the American public against by improving media literacy. Beyer sat down with Pod Virginia to discuss his new legislation and explain how Russian disinformation campaigns work.
See more at https://linktr.ee/JacklegMedia.
Michael Pope
I'm Michael Pope.
Thomas Bowman
I'm Tom Bowman.
Michael Pope
And this is Pod Virginia, bringing Virginia politics straight to your ear.
Thomas Bowman
Later in the show, we'll talk to Congressman Don Beyer about his effort to combat Russian disinformation and misinformation.
Michael Pope
Yeah, fascinating discussion. You definitely want to stick around for that. Thomas, what do you make of Beyer's bill and the potential reception of receiving Congress?
Thomas Bowman
Well, it's definitely early in the process, as far as the reception it would get in Congress. But it's one of those things that there's a lot of utility to studying this. And we get into this in the interview, but he modeled this off legislation that has been successful in Finland, where they've been combating Russian disinformation since the old days of the Soviet Union. And so really, this is, more than anything, it's media literacy.
Michael Pope
Yeah, I think it's really important to keep in mind that even in, like, the American media sphere, you've got people like Tucker Carlson, who are, night after night, on the air, sort of, spouting Kremlin talking points. So it's really important, you mentioned media literacy, it's really important to think about, and evaluate, what you're hearing, because some things that are in the American sphere are Russian misinformation and disinformation.
Thomas Bowman
You know, maybe our tagline should be, "Pod Virginia, not fake news."
Michael Pope
Before we get to the news, Thomas, we have a new Patreon, right?
Thomas Bowman
Yes, shout out to Erika Belsaas. I hope I got that right. Let me know if we didn't. But thank you so much for supporting the show. We put this podcast together for you, our listeners. So thank you, Erika, and to all of our patrons.
Michael Pope
Thank you to the Patreons. Okay, let's get to the news. Governor Glenn Youngkin has appointed a new person to oversee elections in Virginia, Susan Beals, who was, until recently, a member of the Chesterfield County Electoral Board. Now some Democrats are concerned because Beals served as a former legislative aide to Senator Amanda Chase, who was, of course, censured for repeating former President Trump's baseless claims about election fraud, and more recently, Amanda Chase pushed for a $70 million audit of the 2020 election. Senate privileges and Elections Committee Chairman Adam Ebbins says he'll be asking Beals about that at her confirmation hearing next year.
Adam Ebbin
I do understand that she was an aide to Senator Chase for one legislative session. And I will want to make sure that she doesn't share those same views.
Michael Pope
The former Chesterfield Republican Party Chairman Rick Michael says he understands why some people might want to make the connection between Beals and Chase. But...
Rick Michael
I don't think the connections there. I think if you were to ask Senator Chase, she acknowledge that they have different views on how things could go. As far as the 2020 election, and election integrity, the whole, both of them want the same end result, which is election integrity and faith, they just have different views on how it can be accomplished.
Michael Pope
In a written statement, Beals says she plans to increase voter confidence in the election process and strengthen the security of the Commonwealth's elections. Now, Thomas, the relationship between Beals and Chase, of course, has been the focus of a lot of discussions over the last week. But my understanding is that Beals was only Chase's aid for like one session. And Chase has actually been on social media saying she doesn't agree with Beals on a lot of things.
Thomas Bowman
The real problem here is not so much what's on her resume, it's what's not on her resume. So Glenn Youngkin removed a nonpartisan policy walk, who has run multiple agencies, and appointed a political hack. When Democrats controlled the Department of Elections, they took great pains to make it a nonpartisan process, even removing their authority, at times, in favor of a nonpartisan bureaucrat. So Youngkin's claim that he's trying to, " depoliticize, the Department of Elections," is incorrect, at best. A political hack who served as staff to the Senate's craziest member, is not qualified to run a serious agency, responsible for administering elections. So it's gonna be really interesting to watch the Senate on this one.
Michael Pope
You know, there's also a through line, here, with the discussion that we've been having about the Environmental Secretary. The person who's currently in that job, has not been confirmed by the General Assembly, who won't get a stab at interviewing that person until next year, we have the same issue here with the Elections Commissioner. This person is going to be around for, you know, almost an entire year before the General Assembly is ever going to get a chance to question that person and maybe agree with him, and maybe disagree with them. So, you know, how much authority does the General Assembly actually have here?
Thomas Bowman
It may not be up to the legislature, depending on whether it passes a bill from Jill Vogel or Margaret Ransone. Their bills allow the department to choose their own commissioners. So the main difference between these bills is whether a majority or a supermajority vote. So this person, conceivably, can get a majority vote from the department, but probably not a super majority.
Michael Pope
Also in the news, Governor Glenn Youngkin is, right now, considering a bill that would allow your local police department to use a third party vendor that scrapes billions of photos from Facebook and Instagram. Supporters say facial recognition technology allows cash strapped police departments to fight crime with less manpower. But Delegates Cia Price, a Democrat from Newport News, says she's worried about disproportionate policing.
Marcia Price
In order for this particular technology to work, quote, unquote, "lowering crime," you need cameras on all of the communities. Where would the communities be where these cameras would be? Communities like mine that have been already, historically, over policed.
Michael Pope
The bill was introduced by Senator Scott Surovell, a Democrat from Fairfax County, who says those concerns about disproportionate policing, they're overblown.
Scott Surovell
Black Virginians, or Black Americans, are probably disproportionately, wrongfully accused of crimes for a lot of different reasons, including the fact that lineups are incredibly inaccurate, there's a 40% error rate using police lineups to identify people, which, if you're worried about accuracy, I'm not clear why we haven't banned those yet. This technology-
Michael Pope
You're changing the subject!
Scott Surovell
I like changing the subject. This technology is way more accurate than any current policing methods that are currently used to identify people. So it's, I think the people that are raising the specter of problems are are creating Boogeyman.
Michael Pope
So the bill passed the House and the Senate with a very bizarre coalition of people. So like in the House, supporters included Eileen Filler-Corn and Terry Kilgore, while opponents included Lamont Bagby and Speaker Gilbert. So it's very rare that you see coalition's like that. The decision is now in the hands of a Republican governor, of course, and opponents of facial recognition technology are urging him to get out his veto pen, and have this be the second veto that he issues. Thomas, what do you make of this debate, this really interesting debate, over whether or not police should be able to use third party vendors, like, there's one, particular, called Clear View AI, to like, have a picture that they got of like a store robbery, send that to Clear View AI, and get back a list of possible suspects. A lot of people think that's invasive. What do you make of this debate over facial recognition technology from the police departments?
Thomas Bowman
This bill rolls back a policy that the legislature passed in the 2021 session from Delegate Aird, and the status for AI use in police, before that, was the Wild West. There was no laws, or guardrails, if you will, on, on on police use of AI third party otherwise. Lashrecse Aird passed a bill so that if departments want to use AI, it's got to be in house, like, created natively. So, obviously, that's an effective ban, and whether or not they met to do that, is, of course, in question here, but what Scott Surovell is saying is, "Hey, you know, the Wild West is no good. This may not be a perfect bill, or a perfect way to do it, but it's better than the way things are being done right now." And, from a practical point of view, I would say that you are not going to be able, in the near future, to stop the use of AI from police. And the reason for that is AI is becoming more and more accessible and ubiquitous.
Michael Pope
Well you say it's becoming more accessible and ubiquitous. And certainly, that's true. And the more it's used, the better it gets. But right now, this is not perfect technology. There was a recent government report, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, looked at this technology, and said it, pretty frequently, missidentifies African Americans, in general, and Black women in particular. So that's the concern you're hearing from Cia Price, is, "This is going to be aimed at my communities, that I represent." So like, while this technology is getting better, it's not perfect right now. Scott Surovell, would say, "Well, neither are police lineups. You know, police lineups are actually notoriously wrong. And this technology is actually better than the what we're using now." All of this stuff is now being considered in the Patrick Henry Building, and the governor's people are wading through this, and we have no visibility on what Governor Youngkin is going to do. This was not talked about in the campaign. It's not a partisan issue. You got, like Law and Order loving Republicans in favor of this technology, and you've got Law and Order Republicans against this technology. Whatever Youngkin does is...we don't know yet. We don't have any visibility into his thoughts on this. And I've repeatedly asked his press people about this and received radio silence.
Thomas Bowman
You know, this could be one of those situations where it just depends on how much money ClearView AI has donated to the Governor's PAC.
Michael Pope
Also, in the news, the debate over masks in schools is not over yet. Last week, 12 public school students at high risk of being harmed by COVID-19, won an injunction against the executive order, and the law, prohibiting school divisions from implementing mask mandates. The judge in the case ruled that mandatory masking could be considered reasonable under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Now, that ruling applies, specifically, to the 12 students, although, the judge stopped short of up ending the entire law for all of the jurisdictions across Virginia. Thomas, what do you make of this latest development in the ongoing debate over mask mandates?
Thomas Bowman
It's welcome, I'll say that much. Both EO 2, and that executive order, which subsequently got a Senate bill, for the policy, it was heartless, frankly, and it does create a situation where you have a wholesale violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act. You cannot say that somebody's life and health is less valuable than somebody else's. Because they're handicapped, right? So it is not acceptable, as a society, to say, "Yeah, well, sorry, guys. We just got to get back to work." Unfortunately, as much as we all want to be passed COVID, COVID has not passed us, yet. So I'm glad that people are starting to finally come to their senses with this kind of ruling, of, "Hey, not only are you going to get an injunction, but I think that this violates the ADA, because I think those are the magic words here. And, you know, I'll be frank, I think that the entire government, from local governments, employers, all the way up to the feds, their entire approach to COVID has been a violation of the ADA. And it's going to be, I don't know what the remedy is for that, but I think we're gonna see like those mesothelioma commercials for class action lawsuits for decades.
Michael Pope
Yeah, I, actually, on an earlier podcast, you compared it to smoking. So like, right now, we have no clue what the long term effects of COVID-19 are. And this could spiral out for decades to come, in ways that are similar to those...How do you pronounce that word?
Thomas Bowman
Mesothelioma lawsuit.
Michael Pope
Those mesothelioma lawsuit commercials that you see on television. So yeah, that's a really good point. 20 years from now, you might be seeing COVID-19 commercials on the television.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah, both against employers who didn't look out for the health, welfare safety of their immune compromised employees. But it's more than that. So we don't understand a lot about COVID, right now. We know the acute symptoms, we know that the vaccines prevent many of the acute symptoms, but you also have organ shutdowns, because it really wrecks your lungs, your kidneys, your heart, your your brain, so you get these really large blood cells and tiny capillaries in your brain. And so what we do know, for a fact, is Long COVID is going to reduce your quality of life, and possibly reduce your length of life. And what is the effect on the human body of having COVID 10 times in two years, because we're finding out that people are subject to reinfection after about 30 days, and it's less when you have a mild case of like for, in this case, Omicron. I mean, I don't know about you, but I would just rather not have COVID anymore. And the best way to do that is things like wear your mask, and at least until the WHO says that the pandemic is over.
Michael Pope
And, of course, the chief opponent to that happening is all of the media misinformation, and disinformation, about the health aspects of COVID, and the health aspects of the vaccines. Which brings me to the rest of our podcast where we're going to talk about Russian misinformation and Russian disinformation. And we will be joined by Congressman Don Beyer of Alexandria. He's got a new bill aimed at improving media literacy to target and go after the harmful aspects of Russian misinformation and Russian disinformation. We'll be right back.
Michael Pope
And we're back on Pod Virginia. We're talking about misinformation and disinformation. And we're joined by a Virginia Congressman who's trying to create a new commission that would combat misinformation and disinformation. He also wants to establish a grant program to improve resilience to fake news, as well as conduct a study on media literacy. It's an honor to welcome to the program, my congressman, because I live in the eighth congressional district, Don Beyer. Thanks for joining us.
Don Beyer
Thank you, Michael, very much. And thank you, Thomas.
Thomas Bowman
It's great to have you on the show, Congressman Beyer, and good to talk to you again. So tell us about the Educating Against Misinformation and Disinformation Act. What does your bill do and what's its current status?
Don Beyer
Well this is, Michael and Thomas, this is our, at least my, next best effort to try to combat all the misinformation and disinformation that we seem to have in our society. It's topical right now since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, because we know that there's a lot of misinformation in Russia about the war, and that the Russians have been doing their best to spread this disinformation around the world. You know, trying to characterize that they don't attack apartment buildings, for example, or hospitals, when there's so much evidence that, they in fact, do. But for me, it even goes deeper than this, that we look at the divisions in our American society, or in American culture, which at least feel deeper than at any time in most of our lives. And think that at least part of it is that we seem to have different narratives about what's happening in America and in the world. And some of these narratives have been fed by misinformation, disinformation, not just from local sources, but from sources all over the world.
Michael Pope
So your inspiration for this was a program in Finland to protect against Russian propaganda. Tell us a little bit about that program, and sort of why you want to replicate it here?
Don Beyer
I look to Finland for leadership on a number of interesting issues. They seem to have the smartest kids in the world right now. And I love the fact that in Finland, teacher is the most important profession. I wish that were the same thing here in the United States. But what they've done is they've been subjected to Russian dis and misinformation, now, for a long time. And they tried to figure out how best to push back. So they created a commission just like this. And it was specifically focused on kids K through 12. And how to teach these kids to be skeptical, and how to push, really push, deep, and look for second, and third, and fourth affirmations of any given piece of information, of facts, so that they could, first of all, be aware that there are often two or more narratives, and how to determine which one actually reflects the truth.
Thomas Bowman
Alright, let's talk about disinformation and misinformation, a little more specifically. Congressman, can you just, first, give us a brief overview. Describe how, to the best of our knowledge, Russia's disinformation network works, how does this propaganda go from inside the halls of the Kremlin to coming out of the mouths of American politicians?
Don Beyer
Well, probably the first way that they will do it, is they'll set up fake Facebook accounts, Twitter accounts, Instagram accounts, that appear to be coming from, you know, a middle aged American woman, living in Alabama, or a professor living in Colorado. And so it looks like an American that's doing it, and then they'll create 200 or 1000 bots, these automatic Twitter accounts, or Instagram accounts, that can retweet these things, so it looks like they have thousands or hundreds of followers, and therefore are credible. And these bots will follow all kinds of people, and send these things out. And then they'll feed you crazy stuff. But Michael, Thomas, fascinating statistic. I talked to one of the leaders at NIH recently that said that 70% of the misinformation and disinformation about vaccines in America, on social media, came from exactly 10 people, and our inability to manage those 10 people, or to push back in meaningful ways, man, 30% of Americans are vaccine hesitant or vaccine resistant. That means these are the 30% who are most likely to die, most likely to get Long COVID, most likely to be hospitalized on a ventilator. So it has very real world consequences having this out there.
Thomas Bowman
In which subjects is Kremlin disinformation most prevalent?
Don Beyer
I think the biggest, I don't spend a lot of time with it, so I don't have the direct experience. But what I read is that the disinformation and misinformation is largely around who's the aggressor, and who's not, who's working for peace and who's not. If you listen to the Russian narrative, they are God's chosen children and doing everything right, and trying to work for a peaceful world. And they're prosperous, and they're investing in other countries. And the reality is, that it's a broken country, completely dependent on extracting minerals and selling them elsewhere. It's a dictatorship and they feel terribly vulnerable, surrounded by democratic societies. Their leadership does not want it to become a democratic society, so they have to tear down everybody else.
Michael Pope
Congressman, I want to ask you about the extent of Kremlin influence in U.S. political discourse. Recently, David Korn had a great piece in Mother Jones where he got a hold of a memo from the Kremlin that said it was essential to feature Tucker Carlson on their state run media. How did that happen? What's the relationship there? I mean, like, how does that relationship develop? And how did that happen?
Don Beyer
Well, I want to put aside any notion that people are paid Russian agents, that that's not an accusation that I can make. But you certainly look at Tucker Carlson and think that even as Fox has said, that they don't want him, at least for legal purposes, taken seriously as a journalist. And he's an entertainer. He's after ratings. He's after the biggest possible salary. So he will just say, the most outrageous things, the most untrue things, in order to get viewership. These things don't have to be consistent from one day to the next, as long as people are saying that he's getting their blood pressure up, and making them mad, and making them sad. He's stimulating people with his entertainment. So Tucker, obviously, wants to do anything that he can to tear down President Biden, so he's been sticking up for Russia. And it seems to be extraordinarily unpatriotic, but it does get him viewers. And so same with a Tulsi Gabbard, for example. And they become the perfect pawns for Russian television. And then when they put Tucker Carlson on Russian television, boy, the Russian people can then think, "Oh, this is what Americans actually think," rather than, "This is one nutty guy who makes a lot a lot of money, has no lived experience that has anything to do with war, and yet is flouting the goodwill and the intention almost the entire democratic world."
Thomas Bowman
Congressman, can you tell us more about where the private sector fits into this? For example, in the book, "Blowout," Rachel Maddow documents how Exxon conspired with Rose NAFTA and Gazprom, actually to melt the North Pole for the benefit of their mineral extraction. We also know from the book, "Democracy in Chains," that it details how the Koch network disseminates conservative misinformation for its own purposes. How closely do we fear private industry is working with the Kremlin?
Don Beyer
Thomas, I don't really know how closely they work. I have no independent data. You know, they don't even necessarily have to have Koch inspired...money doesn't have to have changed hands for some private interest to see that their interests align with the Kremlin. So if if there's any truth to Exxon Mobil wanting to melt the North Pole, which, gosh, I hope there isn't, and that aligns with Russia's interests to make ever more demand for their their products, their fossil fuels, that's a business decision, a decision of greed, that runs in the face of humanity, and their response to the rest of the world, their responsibility to the rest of the world. But I certainly can't make active arguments of active collusion.
Michael Pope
Congressman, tell us about this commission that you want to create. Your legislation says it should analyze this status of misinformation, and disinformation, that it should report annually to Congress, that it should create a strategy to promote media literacy. How would this commission work? Who would be on it, and tell us a little bit about how that might play out?
Don Beyer
Well, a lot of this we leave open ended. I mean, typically, with these Commissions, you'll have appointments from the President, appointments from both parties in Congress. You want a lot of citizen engagement, and people that have expertise in, they don't have to be that big, they certainly don't have to be that expensive. But if you can put 15 smart people in a room with a variety of perspectives, that are all intent on dealing with misinformation and disinformation, hopefully, you can get a pretty solid agenda, legislative and regulatory that that emerged from it. What we have right now is a bunch of well intentioned people, here and there, throwing out ideas, rather than a thoughtful organization that the press will pay attention to, that their commission report will be widely read. And hopefully it will generate specific legislative and executive actions to move us in the right direction.
Michael Pope
So you also want to create a grant program to improve resilience to misinformation and disinformation. Tell us a little bit about that. Where would the money come from and what kind of investments you want to make with this grant program?
Don Beyer
Well, the grant program would come from the general budget of the federal government. The idea with the grant program is that there will be really excellent ideas in Pittsburgh, or in El Paso, or in Missoula, Montana, that people come up with. And if they had $25,000, or $100,000, they could implement it, and then you can see what works. What you'd really like to do is see, you know, 1000 flowers bloom, that would fight information and disinformation. And we could help fund them in order to help establish the national strategy that really worked.
Thomas Bowman
You also want to establish a study on the extent of disinformation in media literacy among the American public. What kind of recommendations would you expect to come from that?
Don Beyer
This comes back to that old business idea that you can't manage what you don't measure. Right now, if you ask me, is disinformation, misinformation, worse now, than it was in 2000, 1980, or 1950? I don't really know. I mean, anecdotally, I'd say, "Oh, sure." Because you have Google, and Facebook, and Instagram, and Russians can do it from their basement in Moscow. But that's anecdotal. And the old throw away is the plural of anecdote is not data. So if we can actually gather, you know, meaningful data on the kind of literacy that our, that our American people have, we'd be in a much better shape. By the way, this this literacy could be not just restricted to what do you know about vaccines, it can also be about history, it could be about commonly accepted wisdom throughout our society. And you know, that the good news is, we could choose carefully what we want to measure, and make sure that it's not, you know, politically tilted one way or the other. And just find out where the American people are. By the way, if you ever got a baseline on our literacy, on the extent of miss or disinformation, that it seeped into our consciousness, our understandings, you can do the same thing next year, or five years from now, and 10 years now, and see if we made any difference.
Thomas Bowman
Alright, Congressman, I want to take the clock back many years, actually decades at this point, unfortunately, to 1997. And the reason I want to do that is because at my strategy firm, I was studying your election for Governor for broader reasons. And we were very surprised that the NRA's pattern of contributions changed that year in 1997, where, previously, they hadn't been a huge factor in state elections. Now that we know, for a fact, based off, now like, convicted people, we know that the NRA was laundering Russian money. Do you wonder whether it started as far back as 1997?
Don Beyer
I actually have never wondered that. I never had the sense that the Kremlin cared about whether I won or lost that '97 election, but it's certainly plausible. It's very sad, and I hope that there are appropriate indictments and convictions coming for any major American institution, like the National Rifle Association, that may have been funded for nefarious purposes by a foreign government. But you certainly, it certainly fits into the overall Russian pattern of, "Let's divide the American people, and what better place to divide them on guns." We have the Second Amendment, however interpreted. We have, you know, 39, 40,000 gun deaths a year, we have these incredible tragedies. We have Americans who think the 40,000 deaths are the necessary price of preserving the Second Amendment. And then you have others, like me, who would say, "There's a lot more we can do for gun safety that would reduce these numbers of deaths, without violating any Americans right to own a firearm." But the Russians play into this perfectly. I think, you know, we've known for years that the NRA leadership is far more extreme, far more hostile to any sensible efforts, than the NRA members themselves. So if their money is coming from Russia, they don't have to care about the members themselves. If their money is coming from the gun manufacturers, membership dues are not the biggest factor.
Thomas Bowman
I would just as a coda to that say, it was probably not so much that the Kremlin cared whether or not you won or lost that year, and it was more to do with the fact that the tobacco companies cared who won or lost that year. And that would have been the motive that the Kremlin might have piggybacked on.
Don Beyer
The tobacco companies didn't invest $2 million there at the very end, in my opponent. And so, you know, it was interesting, it was, for me, one of the first instances of American politics really being about culture. I love Southwest Virginia and spent- visited there 100 times when I was Lieutenant Governor, and tried to do lots of initiatives on high school dropout prevention, and recovery, and economic development. I still got 20% of the vote. And a lot of that 20% was, or the 80% that voted no, was about guns and tobacco, that I had weighed in with the, then, head of the FDA on regulating tobacco advertising to children, which was a sin in the eyes of the tobacco companies. And I'd been for background checks on guns, and that also was a sin in the eyes of the NRA.
Thomas Bowman
Yeah and in 1997, that was when the tobacco settlement was processing and- or in progress, rather. And they settled in 1998 for $206 billion. So that's a lot of motivation to throw an election one way or the other.
Michael Pope
All right, Congressman, is there anything else you want to tell us about your proposal on combating misinformation and disinformation?
Don Beyer
For us, I've always been a fan of the idea that whoever writes the first memorandum wins, or in this particular case, getting a concrete piece of legislation that people can co sponsor, that they can have hearings on, that we can, perhaps, have a markup on. It will be a step, not the final step, but a step towards getting a national consensus on how we make progress in fighting miss and disinformation. And this is, for no particular political agenda, this is not right or left, this is just making sure that the decisions we make, and in the information that our citizens have, from kindergarten through old age, are based on real facts, and real truth, rather than things that are fed to us, either by bad actors in our own country, or certainly by overseas folks, China, Russia, who want to disrupt our democracy.
Thomas Bowman
All right, we've been joined by Congressman Don Beyer, who recently introduced the Educating Against Misinformation and Disinformation Act. Thank you again for joining us, Congressman.
Don Beyer
Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Thomas.
Michael Pope
Pod Virginia is a production of Jackleg Media. Our Producer is Aaryan Balu. Our Social Media Manager is Emily Cottrell. And our Advertising Sales Manager is David O'Connell.
Thomas Bowman
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Michael Pope
We'll be back next week with another episode of Pod Virginia.
